Does anyone know yet why sycamore seeds are suddenly so toxic?

_GG_

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I can't remember who or when it was but someone mentioned that AM was to do with the mould that grew on the damp seeds and leaves of any falling tree. The mould would be particularly rampant in mild winters which we have had for several years now. It's mild again now... there were people having a picnic in dresses on Friday in the park! However, it has been dry...

I really hope some reserach is published soon. It would break my heart to see my horse die in this way. Horrible.

There is a huge deal of research currently being undertaken, looking at it from every angle. It is being taken very seriously.
 

kez81

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read bhs report 2013

Your not the only one who has heard prior to 2013 that sycamores are poisonous. I remember being scolded as a kid by a farmer for putting berries in my mouth and got a good lecture about which plants were ok to scrump nuts and seeds from and which ones were not. I just remember him showing me sycamore seeds, acorns, yew berries and some others and saying "why do you think the animals don't eat them? They're not half daft like you misses, they know not ruddy poison themselves!"
 

Dave the dog

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sigh, just google it. 'There's none so blind as them as won't see'. Ploughing through Hippiatracia to see if the greeks new about the connection. So far Belladonna including spuds and tomato's, Hemlock and Deadly night shade induce similar symptoms.
 

ester

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Do you know how annoying it is for people to declare information as correct and then not provide sources and expect everyone else to go searching............
 

hairycob

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Actually Dave, and I'm not sorry to be blunt, but you are talking blocks. IF you can be arsed to educate yourself by actually reading some of the histories you would realise that you are completely& utterly wrong. And I find that if people say Google it yourself is because they are wrong. My horses were on grass that was more then adequate & I am prepared to take you to the yard we were at and show you. Do you have the balls to.turn up or are you just a little squirt who is only prepared to insult people from behind a keyboard.
 

kez81

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Well quite clearly they do eat them or they wouldn't be poisoned by them.

But the vast majority DON'T eat them. Maybe we are seeing more cases because the way we keep horses has changed so much and our managent is putting them at risk or maybe we are just more aware of it. Maybe horses are eating them because they are lacking a certain vitamin, maybe selective breeding has taken away so much of their natural instincts they no longer have the ability to determine poisonous foods from good food, maybe climate change affects the seeds or just maybe some horses like the taste, who knows for sure? All we can do is be aware of the risk and take steps if we need to, not panic and go cutting down every single tree as some people are suggesting!
 

SO1

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This is so not true a horse died of AM at the yard I was at and the field they were in had been rested and they were knee deep in grass. It was a field that not only had grass but as they had hedges too they could get to blackberries and rosehips they also had ash tress and other non poisonous trees so it was old varied grazing.


Point being hairycob they eat them for want of something else to eat!!
 
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ycbm

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Point being hairycob they eat them for want of something else to eat!!

Well you've capped it all now Dave. So now you are accusing the people who are saying that their horses had plenty to eat are lying.

If you are not drunk or stupid you should be hanging your head in shame :(

Are you getting some kind of kick out of upsetting people like this?
 

hairycob

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But they aren't always poisonous, so the majority can eat them with no problem so you wouldn't know if they were or weren't. It funny how a few people knew they were poisonous but the entire veterinary profession didn't. What a shame you didn't share your wisdom.. you could have savers much suffering.
 

ycbm

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But the vast majority DON'T eat them. Maybe we are seeing more cases because the way we keep horses has changed so much and our managent is putting them at risk or maybe we are just more aware of it. Maybe horses are eating them because they are lacking a certain vitamin, maybe selective breeding has taken away so much of their natural instincts they no longer have the ability to determine poisonous foods from good food, maybe climate change affects the seeds or just maybe some horses like the taste, who knows for sure? All we can do is be aware of the risk and take steps if we need to, not panic and go cutting down every single tree as some people are suggesting!

How are you do sure they don't eat them? Have you read the thread?

Some trees have it, some don't.

Some parts of some trees have it, some don't.

Some seeds on some trees have it, some don't.

And even when they do, it varies in strength.

No horse near a sycamore tree is guaranteed safe.

I'm sure it makes people feel safer to blame the owners of dead horses. I just hope those who are doing it don't have to learn the hard way. If I had any on my land, they would be going as soon as I could get hold of someone to fell them.
 
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Dave the dog

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Well you've capped it all now Dave. So now you are accusing the people who are saying that their horses had plenty to eat are lying.

If you are not drunk or stupid you should be hanging your head in shame :(

Are you getting some kind of kick out of upsetting people like this?

ycbm you twist my words or didn't read them. Not blaming individuals It's the circumstances we as self appointed custodians of all things great and small have created that have reduced our poor beasts to living in an even poorer parody of that which nature has designed them to exist and thrive in. Do you derive pleasure from being obtuse? Do you really think I don't care about the demise of peoples Horses? Do you think that I am satisfied with the environment that we expect our horses to live in? You might be satisfied with mediocrity and all it's forms of gripping and blame shifting I am not. Read the bhs report, you will find it points a timid, wobbly finger at overgrazing. Not that that would be something any sober or intelligent person would countenance. But ignorance comes in many guises, the most kind and well intentioned horse owner can too easily inflict suffering on the animals they love, through simple ignorance. I sincerely hope that there isn't another species of tree developing another plague as a result of climate change or just being in the wrong place.
 

Dave the dog

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dave the dog, I have just read the BHS 2013 report you mentioned. Can't find it. Enlighten me???

paddy555 kind off lost the will for it. but it talks about the spread from eastern europe which has been happening for some time, relates the spread of disease to possible poor grazing combined with the exuberance of sycamore seed production and recommends managing grazing or picking the seeds up plus vigilance.

Fair well
 

kez81

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How are you do sure they don't eat them? Have you read the thread?

Some trees have it, some don't.

Some parts of some trees have it, some don't.

Some seeds on some trees have it, some don't.

And even when they do, it varies in strength.

No horse near a sycamore tree is guaranteed safe.

I'm sure it makes people feel safer to blame the owners of dead horses. I just hope those who are doing it don't have to learn the hard way. If I had any on my land, they would be going as soon as I could get hold of someone to fell them.

Well I am not blaming the owners of dead horses and I don't think anyone else is either, but there does seem to be a bit of a panic about sycamores. All we can do is minimise the risk as best we can without over reacting IMHO
 

hairycob

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Kez81. To see large extent you are right. Clearly the vast majority of horses are able, the vast majority of time, to coexist happily with dynamite. But, it is a newly recognised & poorly understood risk so it is inevitable that people will be concerned. And, once you have seen your horse dying of respiratory & cardiac failure it's something you get desperate to help other people avoid.
Personally I have raised a few hundred £ to help fund research.
Smug parts who think they know better than anyone but expose their ignorance every time they post just wind me up.
Is there a way to block individuals like on Facebook because I think I will burst something if I read another post from dodgy Dave. I see he didn't take up my offer - surprise surprise.
 

sarahann1

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I reckon it's got to be a number of factors coming into play.

1) Better understanding of the disease, so more accurate diagnoses. I can't help ponder the number of EGS, 'serious colic' and Botulism which have really been AM and visa-versa.

2) Changing climates, we've had warmer, wetter winters of late, that's bound to have ecological implications to the way trees/plants grow. I remember my biology class from 20+yrs ago saying we need good, cold, winters so trees properly shed their leaves so the can put their energies into surviving the winter (obv that's very simplistic and general, but that was the general gist). If leaves and seeds aren't being shed at the ideal times, maybe the tree hanging on to them is turning them toxic over time?

3) We must accept complete eradication of the sycamore tree is largely unrealistic, just as Dave pointed out, we can't remove all things poisonous to all horses, we'd have no ecosystem left. What can we do is keep up with the latest research and manage down the risk best we can as new theories and facts are presented to us.

4) Some things happen through sheer bad luck despite the best possible management. I've read so many stories now where folk have seemingly gone above and beyond and their horses have still sadly succumbed. After we mitigate risk as best we can, we must accept a certain degree of luck when we own horses, good or bad. A horse on the yard where I keep mine succumbed to botulism, which lives in the soil, vet hadn't seen a case in 20+ years of practice, horse was well managed, it was just rubbish luck unfortunately.

Hopefully research will give us some answers and hopefully sooner rather than later. Though given they are still grappling with EGS we might be waiting a few more years yet.
 

crabbymare

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the old lady who ran the riding school where I first learned about horse management (a long time ago) always had sycamore in the same category as oak and yew etc. no idea why other than it was bad for horses and could cause very bad colic but there was no mention of botulism in seeds as they probably did not know about it then. the only way I can think of to minimise the risk when the tree is on your own land and is preserved is to have the branches cut back a bit more each year so that there are less seeds to come down
 
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ycbm

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Bad management is knowing that your neighbour's yew hedge is in reach of your horse and not fencing it off. A friend of mine lost a horse that way.

Bad luck is living in Scotland, never grazing when it rains after a dry spell and still losing your horse to grass sickness.

It's impossible to remove all seeds and seedlings, and it's perfectly obvious that horses with plenty to eat do eat them. It's beyond my understanding that anyone would leave a sycamore that they have the ability to take down in or near their horse's field. And also beyond my understanding why anyone would believe that would in any way endanger the sycamore species in this country.

I'm so thankful that I don't have any near me.
 

hairycob

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The big management problem with sycamore is that the seeds ate designed to travel on the wind. The yard I am at mow doesn't have a tree within 1/4 mile but after a strong wind we still get seeds in the field. We have to accept there will always be a risk but if we can learn when it is likely to be higher and to recognise the signs in horses that is the best we can do. I do find in funny though that at 56 the first time I heard that sycamores could be an issue was after the 2013 research, that none of the older horsemen/women I know had heard that (& some of them are flipping knowledgeable), that none of the vets knew & yet on this post there are people who claimed they always knew sycamores are poisonous. Sorry if I have problems believin you.
 

Patchworkpony

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The big management problem with sycamore is that the seeds ate designed to travel on the wind. The yard I am at mow doesn't have a tree within 1/4 mile but after a strong wind we still get seeds in the field. We have to accept there will always be a risk but if we can learn when it is likely to be higher and to recognise the signs in horses that is the best we can do. I do find in funny though that at 56 the first time I heard that sycamores could be an issue was after the 2013 research, that none of the older horsemen/women I know had heard that (& some of them are flipping knowledgeable), that none of the vets knew & yet on this post there are people who claimed they always knew sycamores are poisonous. Sorry if I have problems believin you.
I agree with everything you say - especially the fact that NO ONE really knew of the dangers. I'm older than you and many of my contemporaries would have read like a who's who of the horse world in the old days and they certainly never mentioned it. Take no notice of Dave - he can't even spell! You were very brave about your sad loss but have turned it around to help others. Remember it's always the empty vessels that make the most noise.
 

Sugar_and_Spice

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Is there a way to block individuals like on Facebook because I think I will burst something if I read another post from dodgy Dave. I see he didn't take up my offer - surprise surprise.

There is a User Ignore function in the control panel. It means you won't see anything they post. Not the same as blocking on facebook because they can still see you.
 

skint1

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I've decided to go to the Horse Expo rather than YHL this year, I think the programme looks very interesting, particularly the discussions around AM
 
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