Does anyone know yet why sycamore seeds are suddenly so toxic?

[kez81]

I agree with everything you say - especially the fact that NO ONE really knew of the dangers. I'm older than you and many of my contemporaries would have read like a who's who of the horse world in the old days and they certainly never mentioned it. Take no notice of Dave - he can't even spell! You were very brave about your sad loss but have turned it around to help others. Remember it's always the empty vessels that make the most noise.

Well may be sycamores causing AM wasn't previously known but them being potentially harmful certainly was. I knew because I was told by a farmer, he knew because he was told by his father. My vet has been saying for donkeys years not to graze under sycamores or oaks (he is also very against feeding haylege so I take that advice too) so clearly he knew something too. Honestly just because you didn't know about it doesn't mean there aren't people who did.

 

[kez81]

Kez81. To see large extent you are right. Clearly the vast majority of horses are able, the vast majority of time, to coexist happily with dynamite. But, it is a newly recognised & poorly understood risk so it is inevitable that people will be concerned. And, once you have seen your horse dying of respiratory & cardiac failure it's something you get desperate to help other people avoid.
Personally I have raised a few hundred £ to help fund research.
Smug parts who think they know better than anyone but expose their ignorance every time they post just wind me up.
Is there a way to block individuals like on Facebook because I think I will burst something if I read another post from dodgy Dave. I see he didn't take up my offer - surprise surprise.

I certainly don't agree with all Dave's points, but he does have some valid ones. Maybe he hasn't worded them very well but I didn't get the impression he was trying to wind anyone up, just stating an opinion (however well informed or not) on an open forum as we all are.
I understand that for some people this is an emotive and painful topic but i don't see the need for slinging insults at people (which yourself and a few others have done) when they state an opinion that differs from our own.

 

[ycbm]

lMy vet has been saying for donkeys years not to graze under sycamores or oaks (he is also very against feeding haylege so I take that advice too) .

But that says it all doesn't it? Every horse owner I know around here has been feeding haylage for fifteen years and none of their horses have died of anything related to it yet. I expect we could find someone somewhere who's heard someone somewhere say practically every plant in the country isn't good for horses.

I'm another who in over forty years had never heard a word said against sycamore. Can any of you people who heard it word of mouth, or anyone else, point us to anything in writing before 2013 where anyone said sycamore was poisonous?

 

[YorksG]

I would think that the word of mouth stuff is quite possibly location based, and like much of "old nagsman knowledge", never written down. Sweet itch CAN be caused by horses reaction to sugar in the diet, but I doubt you'll find that written anywhere much. I find that a lot of "old" knowledge is dismissed by the "scientific" community, as it was not subject to double blind trials, nor was it in a peer reviewed publication, however it is worth listening to IME, when dispensed by people who have lived with horses all their lives.

 

[Patchworkpony]

I'm another who in over forty years had never heard a word said against sycamore. Can any of you people who heard it word of mouth, or anyone else, point us to anything in writing before 2013 where anyone said sycamore was poisonous?

Thank you ycbm - my original point exactly which is WHY I asked the question in the first place. It was never listed under poisonous plants in any of the horse books I grew up with and certainly not in any pony club manuals so people like Dave are talking through the back of their head. If horse world in general really knew sycamores were dangerous a lot more people would done something about it. The vets certainly didn't know and surely they would have been a lot more savvy than the self professed experts.

 

[fatpiggy]

But that says it all doesn't it? Every horse owner I know around here has been feeding haylage for fifteen years and none of their horses have died of anything related to it yet. I expect we could find someone somewhere who's heard someone somewhere say practically every plant in the country isn't good for horses.

I'm another who in over forty years had never heard a word said against sycamore. Can any of you people who heard it word of mouth, or anyone else, point us to anything in writing before 2013 where anyone said sycamore was poisonous?

Haylage has been linked to botulism for a number of years due to the packaging getting damaged and the bacteria creeping in unseen.

 

[ester]

Can you ever see bacteria creeping?

 

[JillA]

Haylage has been linked to botulism for a number of years due to the packaging getting damaged and the bacteria creeping in unseen.

That isn't how botulism gets in - it is in the soil and unless the forage is dry and shaken well (as in making hay) some soil can contaminate the haylage. More prevalent if the mower is set close to the ground or there are mole hills etc. If air gets in through damaged packaging it MIGHT provide optimum conditions for the bacteria but it doesn't some out of the air. Most farmers are aware of the problem and don't mow too close, and haybob the crop well.

 

[ycbm]

Haylage has been linked to botulism for a number of years due to the packaging getting damaged and the bacteria creeping in unseen.

My own understanding is that botulism comes from the soil and can be introduced to haylage by cutting too low, or scraping the top off a molehill. Three suppliers local to me sell in excess of one million pounds worth of haylage a year between them. My own supplier in Lincoln produces vast quantities and delivers all over the country. I've never heard of a single case of botulism poisoning in haylage fed horses.

Holes in haylage can lead to the development of Listeria, I understand, but it is easy to see and/or smell where a haylage bale has been holed by the taint on the haylage inside the wrapper. If this happens, I throw away the tainted stuff and a margin around it, and feed more than the horse can eat so that it is free to leave it if their superior sense of smell tells them to.

 

[paddy555]

Can you ever see bacteria creeping?

I don't remember ever seeing it creeping. However I do remember the weeks of constant nursing 24/7 it took me to nurse the horse through botulism. Botulism is on a par with AM and EGS.

I have never in over 40 years of horses ever heard or seen anything bad written or said about sycamores. Not even a teeny tiny couple of lines in any horse mag ever. As horses were dying of AM before the link was estabished I can only presume professionals hadn't either or they would have been on the case more quickly.

It would be easy now in hindsight to say there was a risk as looking back as it is clear horses died from it and it's spread can probably be traced. However I don't believe that was known at the time horse's were dying.

When horses died or PTS you never thought to ask the vet to PM for an unknown illness, which 10 or 20 years later someone might make a link to and give it a name.

Haylage is a different matter and a risk. I would never let mine near it. A lot get away with it. Some don't. If you are fortunate enough to save a horse with botulism you never take that risk again.

 

[Patchworkpony]

I have never in over 40 years of horses ever heard or seen anything bad written or said about sycamores.

Exactly my point!

 

[ester]

My own understanding is that botulism comes from the soil and can be introduced to haylage by cutting too low, or scraping the top off a molehill. Three suppliers local to me sell in excess of one million pounds worth of haylage a year between them. My own supplier in Lincoln produces vast quantities and delivers all over the country. I've never heard of a single case of botulism poisoning in haylage fed horses.

Holes in haylage can lead to the development of Listeria, I understand, but it is easy to see and/or smell where a haylage bale has been holed by the taint on the haylage inside the wrapper. If this happens, I throw away the tainted stuff and a margin around it, and feed more than the horse can eat so that it is free to leave it if their superior sense of smell tells them to.

That is my understanding too, Cl. botulinum hangs around the soil often as spores which are pretty hardy. Essentially wrapped haylage can produce almost ideal conditions for the bacteria to proliferate.

 

[ycbm]

Is there anyone who has had a horse with botulism where the horse(s) which got it could not possibly have got it from grazing, or where freshly opened haylage was tested and proved to be the culprit? And if so, was the haylage bought from a reputable supplier of horse haylage?

I am concerned that I might be putting my horses at risk, but I'm also a bit confused why, if botulism in haylage is a problem, the big suppliers aren't all being put out of business by the compensation demanded by the owners of sick and dead horses.

Can anyone shed any light?

 

[Tiddlypom]

ycbm, I think that the equine deaths from botulism came in the early days of feeding silage to horses. I remember hearing of cases in the 80's, and have never fed my horses haylage as a result.

However, I believe that modern haylage is cut and treated so as to inhibit the growth of botulism. The ph within the bale needs to be <4.5, I think, plus the grass is cut higher so the likelihood of baling up dead animals is reduced.

ETA Didn't an HHoer who lives in Holland(?), can't remember her username, report an awful recent case where a number, or indeed all, horses in a yard died of botulism poisoning? Including her own.

 

[cobgoblin]

I hadn't heard anything about sycamore trees being harmful until a couple of years ago. There have always been sycamores near or around our horse's grazing both on livery yards and at home. No one gave them a second thought, nor did any horse that I've known die unexpectedly or have AM. There is some sort of recent factor coming into play here, otherwise spates of AM would definitely occurred numerous times during the years that I have owned horses. Was it confused with grass sickness? Colic? Some other misdiagnosis?
Somewhere in my internet research into the subject last year it was mentioned that the levels of hypoglycinA are influenced by the tree being under stress. Could we be looking at a result of climate change, rendering a previously harmless tree toxic? Perhaps those farmers and vets who warned against sycamore had put two and two together after a summer drought.

 

[ester]

In addition to farmers being careful about cropping heights etc modern haylage is usually too dry to support Cl. botulinum growth, - unless wet pockets/water ingress occurs and too low in pH. This is quite a nice pdf

http://www.britishgrassland.com/system/files/uploads/Making Haylage for Horses.pdf

They seem to have more of an issue in the US, I guess conditions aren't so good for whatever reason. Although I am not sure the terms silage and haylage mean the same over there (they also use baleage?!)

 

[cobgoblin]

I think baleage is bagged silage and not suitable for horses.

 

[skint1]

After my mare died a couple of people mentioned very old saying/folk ways type stuff about sycamores having that name because it had the word sick in it and it was known to make living things sick (sick-a-more). I'm a townie and have only had horses for around 15 years so I readily admit I don't know everything, and I have made mistakes. However, in my defense in that time I have met many horse people from top eventers to natural horsemanship practitioners and not one of them ever expressed concern or even remarked upon sycamores in their tree lined pastures. I didn't pay much attention to it and didn't realise the seedlings were also poisonous. I have gone to many talks given by vets and attended lectures and it has never even come up as a subject. I do not believe that the equestrian community considered this a threat until very recently.

I did not take offense to Dave's posts and I was not rude to him, nor would I be, because no matter what he or anyone else says no one will ever blame me as much as I blame myself. I kind of admire people who have such a simplistic world view, It must be quite relaxing to be so sure that you know everything.

 

[Patchworkpony]

I did not take offense to Dave's posts and I was not rude to him, nor would I be, because no matter what he or anyone else says no one will ever blame me as much as I blame myself. I kind of admire people who have such a simplistic world view, It must be quite relaxing to be so sure that you know everything.

This made me cry because I felt so sad that you are blaming yourself when I am convinced there was no proper information or warnings out there that these trees are so dangerous. Please don't blame yourself ever it REALLY wasn't your fault. By the way the word sycamore has nothing to do with sick-a-more is comes from 'Ficus sycomorus' which means the leaves resemble a fig tree. I agree it must be quite relaxing to be so sure that you know everything. I know plenty of people round here who choose to ignore the threat of the seeds and say their horses won't be affected as they never have in the past!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Skint1 and others who have lost horses to ATM, I'm very sorry for your loss. I've been involved with horses for over 50 years, coming up through pony club since my lead rein days. Never in any of the many talks/lectures on poisonous plants that I have attended over the years were sycamores ever mentioned.

 

[Leo Walker]

ycbm, I think that the equine deaths from botulism came in the early days of feeding silage to horses. I remember hearing of cases in the 80's, and have never fed my horses haylage as a result.

I'm the same. I always thought Boutlism was a massive risk with silage, but not haylage. No real idea why though! But I do remember being absolutely horrified when I started work on a yard in roughly 1997 where they fed very wet silage and I felt like a murderer dishing it out to the horses!

 

[ycbm]

I'm the same. I always thought Boutlism was a massive risk with silage, but not haylage. No real idea why though! But I do remember being absolutely horrified when I started work on a yard in roughly 1997 where they fed very wet silage and I felt like a murderer dishing it out to the horses!

I think the problem was twofold, silage is wetter (so better for breeding botulism and impossible to shake any earth out of before baling) and also it was usually made in clamps (huge pits with plastic weighted down with tyres on top) , not in bales, and clamps are much less airtight when new, and completely open to the air once broken into. Though I knew a hunting yard that fed all the hunters on clamped silage made for cattle, including mine at the time (1980). I wouldn't feed silage now.

I've fed big and small bale haylage made specifically for horses since 1993 without ever hearing of any issues in the area. I think I'll stop worrying. Marksway would surely have gone bust long ago if there was a issue with feeding horses haylage, and I am careful where I source from because of ragwort, which really is an issue.

 

[cobgoblin]

Hh

I did not take offense to Dave's posts and I was not rude to him, nor would I be, because no matter what he or anyone else says no one will ever blame me as much as I blame myself. I kind of admire people who have such a simplistic world view, It must be quite relaxing to be so sure that you know everything.

I don't think you should blame yourself, no one knew the cause until recently and folk rumours are as likely to be rubbish as be true. The same could have happened to just about any of us on here,and, looking back over the years, I'm amazed that none of my horses have ever come down with AM.

 

[Patchworkpony]

Have there been any deaths reported yet this year?

 

[_GG_]

Have there been any deaths reported yet this year?

I will see what I can find out.

 

[Patchworkpony]

I will see what I can find out.

Thank you - it would be good to know.