Does bullying exist?

[On the Hoof]

I'm intrigued by a thread today about bullying. I am asking the question out of pure ignorance and have no agenda about the current thread, but my question is ..is it right to call a horse a bully and where do we draw the line between normal horse behaviour in terms of establishing and then keeping the pecking order and what might be termed bullying?? I am a novice rider and only 6 months in to owning my own horse so I am simply interested in your view on this..I don't have any real experience to draw on. I've struggled for months with getting my horse in and out of the field in group turnout due to herd politics but more recently my poneh became lead mare , she seems happy and chilled with it and doesn't seem to bother the others as long as they keep out of her way..but it is something that I will be watching closely. So is it right to use a term like 'bully' in relation to a horse, at what point can we identify and differentiate bullying from pecking order jousts ? And do we know if horses demonstrate bullying behaviour in the wild or is it only in domesticated circumstances where natural.herd dynamics are affected by the constraints imposed by us? Sorry if this is a dumb question but I do wonder how much of our own feelings towards our beloved horses also might colour our judgement on this.

 

[Pigeon]

I've known a couple! I think they could just be very dominant horses, but I don't know why they felt they had to constantly reassert their dominance, so perhaps animals that are insecure or feeling threatened for some reason? Attack is the best form of defence etc etc. They also showed dominant behaviour towards people. I don't know, there are horses that will persecute/herd others continually, but bullying is probably the wrong word.

 

[Kallibear]

I suppose it depends on your definition of bullying. I doubt they think the same malicous thoughts as human bullies but they can and do 'belittle' others and boss them about purely to make themselves feel better.

There are def horses who don't socialise properly. It's often due to growing up in an unsuitable environment (in terms of other horsey friends) but some can just be 'odd'

I've seen both ends of the scale. One a big strapping mare who was insecure and would forever feel the need to throw her weight around and assert her authority. The others got the hell out of her way and tiptoed around her but they certainly didn't like her. She just couldn't settle and felt the need to constant yell 'I'm in charge! '. I suppose that's the closest thing to human bullying. She was only truly happy when paired up with a very very dominate but non-bullying mare who became her best friend and didn't tolerate any of her nonsense.

I also know a pony who just wasn't socially right (despite growing up in an ideal herd). EVERYONE picked on him, even the lowest ranking. He was a complete outcast and no one wanted to be his friend even though he asked nicely. Even a year later he still got picked on. He was eventually run into a fence by the herd and was PTS

 

[On the Hoof]

I also know a pony who just wasn't socially right (despite growing up in an ideal herd). EVERYONE picked on him, even the lowest ranking. He was a complete outcast and no one wanted to be his friend even though he asked nicely. Even a year later he still got picked on. He was eventually run into a fence by the herd and was PTS

Oh this is really sad! Poor pony.

 

[Joanne4584]

I knew a horse that I would call a bully (maybe cause it was my horse he picked on ). My horse can stand up for himself, but this horse would chase, bite and kick him too much for my liking. One day he was chasing my horse so much that my poor horse fell over trying to get away from him.

He would try and bite my leg while out hacking together, and was always pulling faces. When walking past his stable I'd have to be careful to avoid him biting me.

I did not like that horse

 

[ktj1891]

If this is referred to my thread I'm not sure if bullying is the right word but to it's the closest thing to compare. The horse I am referring to beat him up bad, ripped his rug and had bites and kicks all over him. My boy is really quiet and not assertive at all. One day I was bringing him in at the start of all these problems my boy was at bottom of field he saw me and started to come towards me but then started walking away. Eventually caught him and was leading him up field, 'bully' clocked him and my boy vise versa. He ran towards me and my boy! Connor reared and took off and this horse proceeded to chase him around field. When I eventually caught him again my boy was just constantly trying to bolt in. I literally had to walk the parameter of the field to be as far away from this horse as possible my boy was a nervous wreck. As I was coming in I was so upset for him and devastated when I took off his rug and saw the damage. As said bully has now been taken out the field but it appears it has happened again. There was two others initially in the field that chased and bit him too so seems it is happening again, there are a few boisterous playful types in my field and it's just to suited to my boys nature!

 

[Marydoll]

Yes i believe there is as i own one, my horse bullied a very quiet pony in his field so much we had to take the pony out.
My horse would hound him and on occassion when he saw him being put in would charge from the other end Of field to get him, lunging at him and baring teeth for what appeared to be no other reason other than he could

 

[zaminda]

I have one I would describe as a bully. When low down in the pecking order, he is fine, but when he becomes top dog he actually gets really nasty. He starts throwing his weight around, chasing and being generally horrible, including when being ridden unless you make it clear that you are in charge. The first time this behaviour materialised was out on loan, he became the dominant one for the first time in his life and it went to his head. She wasn't a strong enough rider to stop it escalating under saddle, and she had problems with him. The next time something similar happened was again out on loan, when he became number 2 to a particularly thuggish creature who allowed him to throw his weight around far too much. Any time another horse went to put him in his place his 17.2 mate would come and intervene. You have never seen a horse with such a pleased expression as him when he is being mean to another horse! When he is with mine, the herd won't stand for it, and he gets made an outcast whenever he tries, so he is a much nicer individual. So yes, I would say it is similar behaviour to humans, because as a typical bully, he is also a coward!

 

[On the Hoof]

If this is referred to my thread I'm not sure if bullying is the right word but to it's the closest thing to compare. The horse I am referring to beat him up bad, ripped his rug and had bites and kicks all over him. My boy is really quiet and not assertive at all. One day I was bringing him in at the start of all these problems my boy was at bottom of field he saw me and started to come towards me but then started walking away. Eventually caught him and was leading him up field, 'bully' clocked him and my boy vise versa. He ran towards me and my boy! Connor reared and took off and this horse proceeded to chase him around field. When I eventually caught him again my boy was just constantly trying to bolt in. I literally had to walk the parameter of the field to be as far away from this horse as possible my boy was a nervous wreck. As I was coming in I was so upset for him and devastated when I took off his rug and saw the damage. As said bully has now been taken out the field but it appears it has happened again. There was two others initially in the field that chased and bit him too so seems it is happening again, there are a few boisterous playful types in my field and it's just to suited to my boys nature!

Hi, yes it was your thread that got me thinking more about this issue , I just hadn't really thought about whether Bullying in the animal kingdom existed in the same way as in human society. It does seem as if it does. I'm sorry about your boy and hope you get something sorted soon.

 

[risky business]

I don't really know some horses do seem to show severe 'hate' towards another for no reason.. I had a mare that was hated by a friends horse, he'd never been like it before but he just targeted her all the time? Try and bite, kick or just plain chase her.. She tried running through the fence once to get away from him. Even when separated he'd fence walk her side as if to guard his patch?

 

[Spuddles]

I do find the ways they interact with each other in the field really interesting to watch etc.
Whenever my pony moves in with a new friend he is ALWAYS horrible and so bossy. He will chase the horse round, continually move them about and not settle. Then it's always the case that about 5-8 days later the role is reversed and I start seeing him get moved around. It is as if his insecurity leads him to "bully" but in the end he ends up relying on the other horses...because he is so insecure. Once he has gone through this initial stage he seems to happily live with anyone and they get on well. The first couple of weeks is just always the same though!
That doesn't add much to the original post but I just thought it was interesting and related

 

[TheresaW]

I call Brenin a bully, but I'm not sure that he really is. I own Mac, Doll and Ollie, and look after Bren full time for a friend. In the beginning, Bren and Ollie were in a field on their own. Bren was in charge, which suited me for Ollie as he was only 4, and needed to be taught some manners. Bren takes it too far however, and when I wanted to get them in, Bren would totally run Ollie ragged, whether Ollie came to the gate or not. Bren comes running over, but rather than let me catch him, just constantly runs to chase Ollie away. He will charge at him with teeth barred, spin around and try to double barrel him. Ol will often hang right back, not approach, knowing that Bren comes in, then he comes in. It got to the point that it was a chore which could take up to half an hour for me to do. Was made 100 times worse when the mud came. All 4 are now in a field together. Mac is the herd leader, and Bren is quiet as a mouse, however, if Mac comes in first, Bren will then display the same behaviour towards Dolly and Ol until I can get him in.

The 4 have been together for around 4 months now, and after lots of thought and watching, I think a lot of it is to do with Bren's age. He is 23 this year, his eyesight is failing, and I think he panics that he will be left alone in the field and winds himself up. As he is the oldest, I think he possibly feels a bit threatened as well, as he was dominant as a youngster, but without the aggression.

Mac, I think, is a very good leader. Have watched them all in the field, and he will be in the middle, and I've seen him look around, flick his ears a bit, and the other 3 will all move to different positions. Very rarely have I seen him kick, but have seen him bite if one of them gets a bit carried away.

 

[Goldenstar]

There's always a bit of dominance argy bargy in groups and some horses do appear to us as bullies although whether that's truely the best description of the behaviour is open to debate .
The things we know what we mean by the term .
In my view some horses are much more unpleasant to other horses than most are I have owned two out and out 'bullies ' interestingly both had been in single horse homes before they came to us .
I kept them in the field on their own it was not worth the risk , so tough they got to be turned out without a friend.
Some horses form strong friend ships with one other horse this is a curious behaviour they pick one horse and that's their friend my new horse does this he's picked J and J's who he wants to be with, J's a bit bemused by this he's not bothered , J's grey as is the new one and I wonder if new horses dam was grey or perhaps a friend from weaning .
That's a very interesting behaviour more difficult to understand than bully's which you can write off as a dominance behaviour .

 

[TheresaW]

On our old yard, Mac and his then field mate were turned out next to a gelding who had to go out on his own. They would groom over the fence, play about, and had fun together. If the fence between them had been taken away, the other horse would have tried to kill them. I don't fully understand herd dynamics, but would that be a case of the other horse protecting his own space?

 

[On the Hoof]

On our old yard, Mac and his then field mate were turned out next to a gelding who had to go out on his own. They would groom over the fence, play about, and had fun together. If the fence between them had been taken away, the other horse would have tried to kill them. I don't fully understand herd dynamics, but would that be a case of the other horse protecting his own space?

Oh that's a interesting one, it does sound a bit like protecting their own
Area dosnt it? Anyone any thoughts on this?

 

[honetpot]

I think 'bullying' often shows insecurity. I have two herds, male and female, the bully in the male field I have had since a foal and was very submissive as a foal and young pony, he is now four and worries that one particular will take his friend and therefore is aggressive towards him. The bully in the mares field I have since she was two and I was her fourth home, she wants to be the boss but is actually a worrier and very insecure.
My best herd leader was an old pony mare who was very even tempered and very secure in herself, so then others were settled. The worst situation is when you get two unsettled ponies that feed the aggression and insecurity, I once put the bully mare with a silly TB and they were off the scale of hyper stupidness and you have to split them up.

 

[PolarSkye]

Yes, I think bullying does exist in the horse world, however we interpret it . . . horses pick on each other . . . why? Well we don't know that, but they do. It seems to me (from my limited observations) that dominant horses pick on submissive ones . . . sometimes to the point of running them off food sources, not letting them roll and pinning them in a gateway and kicking seven bells out of them. Herd dynamics are fascinating, and I really enjoy watching my own lovely horse navigate his way through herd politics . . . I really enjoy leaning on the gate and watching horses do what they do.

What I don't enjoy is having to transport my horse to horsepital because he's been at the sharp end of said politics . . . or watching him being driven off hay, not allowed to roll, etc. But that's horses.

P

 

[TarrSteps]

I don't think herd dynamics are a "mystery" at all. There are books on the subject!

I think categorising it as "bullying" is dangerous anthropomorphism as it invests the horses' behaviour with motivation and intent that isn't present in the way it is in people, and encourages people to then react to it in very human ways, often in ways that don't help the situation at all. I do sometimes use the term when discussing horse - human interaction because it is a term people understand and empowers them to change their behaviour to change the horse's behaviour, but that is a language trick as much as anything.

Anyone who has spent time with groups of horses living in stable herds with sufficient space and resources knows there is very little tension. I've watched lots of breeding and youngstock herds over the years and currently spend a fair bit of time with about 20 horses that live on +60 acres with plenty of good grazing/hay, adequate shelter and limited human interaction. They are a very peaceful lot. Horses that don't "like" each other stay apart and there are numerous small groups which spread out, although they come together under stress. The largest and most powerful group does get first dibs on food, the best places to eat/stand etc and will push the lower groups out but they generally go easily and there is little physical interaction beyond threats. The only tension comes when resources are limited or if there is disruption, such as a new horse. Many of the horses are even fed by their owners and if they are fairly far up the chain this can be done with little tension. The healthiest younger horses tend to stay together and older horses often drift away from the main herd, but this is nature, not bullying.

But VERY few commercially housed horses live that way. We keep them in the groups that we decide on, in areas that are almost always too small, and we limit their movement and resources as we see fit. Even having a gate is a source of stress as it is "natural" for horses up the herd to get first access to such a valuable resource and things like taking a lower horse out to feed are a huge source of upset. We may not want to hear it but it's how the horses see it.

If a "bullied" horse was in a natural situation it would simply move away. We deny that opportunity or at least make it very unattractive/dangerous as it also means the horse is alone (scary for a horse) and denied access to resources like water and shelter. I have seen older/ill horses treated badly by a group to drive them away but again, nature not ill will.

There are also, as mentioned, very poorly socialised horses. I had one that would attack other horses literally out of the blue. BUT he was a particularly virile, strong minded horse. I suspect in a natural environment he would have had a large herd, lots of kids, and very little challenge. He wasn't a bully, he was a King. It wasn't his fault he was born without a kingdom.

 

[fburton]

Like a lot of horse behaviours that we describe in terms of similar-looking human behaviours, bullying is just a convenient label. Everyone knows what you mean when you say a horse is a bully because we've all seen that kind of behaviour. As anthropormorphic terms go, I don't think it's quite as bad as some others. Still, it would be a mistake to assume that what's going through a horse's head when she is bullying another is anything like what a human bully might be thinking.

Yes, it a manifestation of dominance - but a abnormal or pathological kind due to an excessively (and unnecessarily) aggressive temperament, poor socialization, lack of space, or a combination of these factors - as TarrSteps described very well in her post. Bullying is as obvious as it is because normal dominance signals are not communicated or understood properly, or domestic husbandry practices prevent the horses involved from responding to them as would happen 'in the wild', by simply staying out of the way. If the stakes are raised by, e.g. putting out feed, this kind of overtly aggressive displacement behaviour becomes exaggerated. It's not just actual food that fuels competition and conflict - access to shelter & shade, humans (esp. if there is a potential food element), stallion attention - anything desired strongly enough - will do too. I suspect there are also be both genetic and learned elements in bullying - it is not uncommon for daughters of bullying dams to be bullies themselves (by which I mean abnormally aggressive in showing dominance).

 

[TarrSteps]

I suspect there are also be both genetic and learned elements in bullying - it is not uncommon for daughters of bullying dams to be bullies themselves (by which I mean abnormally aggressive in showing dominance).

But it's also usual for herd position to be "inherited" (barring some sort of significant outside influence) so any mare "born to lead" is then under an extra pressure in an environment that might not let her organise her life as she thinks it should be. She is a Queen, to continue my analogy, amongst people who see that as a negative and seek to control it. More stress.

Also, it's not pretty commonly accepted that the whole idea of "dominant and submissive", "alpha" etc is a) not the same across species and b) not that simple. The model most people are familiar with is dogs (and even that isn't quite the simple version most of us know) but herbivores are not carnivores and their social needs and expressions are quite different.

 

[TarrSteps]

Yes, I think bullying does exist in the horse world, however we interpret it . . . horses pick on each other . . . why? Well we don't know that, but they do. It seems to me (from my limited observations) that dominant horses pick on submissive ones . . . sometimes to the point of running them off food sources, not letting them roll and pinning them in a gateway and kicking seven bells out of them. Herd dynamics are fascinating, and I really enjoy watching my own lovely horse navigate his way through herd politics . . . I really enjoy leaning on the gate and watching horses do what they do.

What I don't enjoy is having to transport my horse to horsepital because he's been at the sharp end of said politics . . . or watching him being driven off hay, not allowed to roll, etc. But that's horses.

P

Running off food is totally "natural". Horses should never be in a situation where that is necessary. I have seen horses in very reduced circumstances literally starve on their feet because they are not able to procure access to resources. Grazers do not hunt and compete for food in the same way as hunters and they will not "learn to fight for their rights" as dogs do naturally.

Re the gate . . .the submissive horse should move. The fact that it can't because we've pinned it there is of no interest to the horse doing the pushing.

I understand that yards have to do what they do for reasons of economic and practical necessity, but it's pretty grim when we're relying on horses to be the ones thinking things through!

 

[fburton]

But it's also usual for herd position to be "inherited" (barring some sort of significant outside influence) so any mare "born to lead" is then under an extra pressure in an environment that might not let her organise her life as she thinks it should be. She is a Queen, to continue my analogy, amongst people who see that as a negative and seek to control it. More stress.

Also, it's not pretty commonly accepted that the whole idea of "dominant and submissive", "alpha" etc is a) not the same across species and b) not that simple. The model most people are familiar with is dogs (and even that isn't quite the simple version most of us know) but herbivores are not carnivores and their social needs and expressions are quite different.

Oh yes - and strikingly different from primate or human dominance.

One of the simplifying assumptions is that dominance and leadership are the same. That may be the case in human societies - think military or governing hierarchies - but is not the case in equine society. Fortuitously, your comment about herd position highlights this difference. That offspring of dominant dams tend to be more dominant themselves and ascend the dominance ranking within the herd is a recognized fact. Yet it is most often older individuals who are chosen to be followed by the others, and those are not necessarily the highest ranking in terms of dominance. Rather, what qualifies a horse to be followed appears to be wisdom and experience, which naturally correlates with age. So you can have a separation of roles within a herd in which there is a younger "alpha" who gets priority access to food (in the domestic setting at least - in the wild, food tends to be evenly distributed, even if sparse) but will follow another who is actually subordinate to her.

Another complicating issue is that dominance is not always fixed, and may vary with resource, so that e.g. different horses may be dominant with regard to water or shelter or food. Of course, that doesn't accord very well with the human/primate notion of dominance where a single person/monkey rules all!

 

[fburton]

As Lucy Rees put it:

"When competing over limited resources, one animal in a group tends to gain control, or dominance, more readily than others. In some animals, notably social carnivores and primates, this makes the dominant attractive to subordinates, who approach with cringing gestures and allow their behaviour to be controlled by him. The disobedient go hungry. In others, like horses, whose natural environment does not present competition for food, the reaction to the dominant is avoidance.

In times of doubt or external threat, it is not towards the dominant that they turn, but towards a leader whose judgement they trust."

http://equilibregaia.com/library/revolutionibus-lucy-rees/

 

[Goldenstar]

I watched once when in the states a fasinating programme about the feral horse herds .
It was quite sad the herd had a senior mare and a stallion the stallion was driven away by a younger horse and he was not very experianced and basically the whole herd fell apart .

 

[Ladyinred]

I watched once when in the states a fasinating programme about the feral horse herds .
It was quite sad the herd had a senior mare and a stallion the stallion was driven away by a younger horse and he was not very experianced and basically the whole herd fell apart .

Was this the "Cloud" series? Fascinating but have only seen a small part of it and can't get it in a format that will play in the UK.

 

[TarrSteps]

Oh yes - and strikingly different from primate or human dominance.

One of the simplifying assumptions is that dominance and leadership are the same. That may be the case in human societies - think military or governing hierarchies - but is not the case in equine society. Fortuitously, your comment about herd position highlights this difference. That offspring of dominant dams tend to be more dominant themselves and ascend the dominance ranking within the herd is a recognized fact. Yet it is most often older individuals who are chosen to be followed by the others, and those are not necessarily the highest ranking in terms of dominance. Rather, what qualifies a horse to be followed appears to be wisdom and experience, which naturally correlates with age. So you can have a separation of roles within a herd in which there is a younger "alpha" who gets priority access to food (in the domestic setting at least - in the wild, food tends to be evenly distributed, even if sparse) but will follow another who is actually subordinate to her.

Another complicating issue is that dominance is not always fixed, and may vary with resource, so that e.g. different horses may be dominant with regard to water or shelter or food. Of course, that doesn't accord very well with the human/primate notion of dominance where a single person/monkey rules all!

In the aforementioned herd, the horse that I put in has become both leader and the one with priority access. He was not a particularly "successful" completion horse as he is very reactive and energetic but you see how that might serve him well in a more natural setting. He is also relatively in the prime of his life and sound, whereas many of the others are old or young. It's interesting to see the layers of the herd and how they arrange themselves around him. I suspect his greatest advantage though is he grew up and lived a good portion of his adult life in a similar situation, which I suspect most of the others did not. He has good horse skills and good organisational skills and the others seem to recognise that. There is very little fuss, even when they have hay out and while I have seen him threaten horses - usually because I'm there, obviously - there are very few scrapes, except when new horses are introduced. It's great having a little study community easily at hand!

What is interesting is how other owners react. Some have actually complained that N and his close associates get more hay than the others (there is enough for all but not always enough for all to eat at once) and that they "bully" the other horses by not allowing them up to the gate (some owners come to the gate with food and ask their horses to come up, which is unfortunate as the gate is down a narrow chute) in the best shelter (there is sufficient shelter for all) etc. I don't know what they expect anyone to do and all of the horses look fit and well, but the perception is interesting.

 

[honetpot]

My 'herds' are pretty much stable and I feed ad-lib hay in round bales plus extra hay in a separate area so there is little cause to argue over food and there are two water troughs so there is no need fight over water, yet the dominant young gelding 'bullies' a younger gelding and watching them its mainly to do with his 'friend' who is social with everyone and the stopping him being with the bullied pony.
As I have said before the pony that wants to bully is the most anxious pony in the group and is more reactive. In the summer I split him away from the rest of the group and put him in with another pony from the group who he can be aggressive towards and it changed his behaviour. He became quieter and more submissive and did not try and dominate the pony. I have found that feeding ad-lib hay and feeding carrots on the floor it seems to cause a lot less friction in the groups as they are foraging in the bedding for them and have stopped giving them any bucket feeds.
I have another group that has a very dominant old mare, an old gelding and a couple of young ponies, everyone knows their place and they will happily eat from a bucket side by side along the fence line.