Does riding need to be so complicated?

Maybe we should all dig out the Ginny Leng (Elliott) book and remember their mantra: KISS, Keep It Simple, Stupid. ;) Now there's an example of a team effort that was thorough, well thought out and left no stone unturned...oh to be able to emulate such a successful system. :(

Does anyone know if Dot Willis is still training? I remember seeing her at Windsor training someone but that was many moons ago.
 
Stencilface said:
'when in doubt, kick pull and shout' that will generally get you out of most sticky situations in some manner at least! :D
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Ha HA . This is how i ride. Which probably explains why im no good at dressage! But seriously I think I learnt to ride and communicate with horses by just getting out and hacking my little pony all over the place when i was young, through rivers, up and down the steepest hills i could find, ended up in a bog one day, half the time just in a headcollar. We learnt to trust each other and had a great bond, and its something im going to look to replicate with my youngster ive got now.
 
I think the answer is yes and no! The little things about our bodies have a massive impact on our horses and lots of problems stem from rider position and posture issues, therefore I think it is very important that experienced riders appreciate these things and assess whether they can improve their aids and position cues to improve performance. However, good riders do so many of the right things naturally that they really don't understand what all the fuss is about! It is also bad to be over analyse too much!! So a balance is probably somewhere in the middle !!
 
Oh My God! I found the thread and tried to read it, but my eyes started watering. Well, I am sure it really is complicated if you break it down to its core (sorry about the pun) elements. I know I have written procedures with my staff on how to rent a house out and how to sell one etc and my god it took me ages. However, do most of us really, really think about things in that level of technicality? Really? Honestly? I guess not.

Well to my horse it means that mum shoves her legs in a certain way around me and shifts her weight a little bit and it means I have to cross my legs in a certain way and bend my body in a certain way. Simples! I have probably got it wrong as at 20 years old and a bit stiff (him, well and me), we dont do leg yeild very often these days if at all. However, I DONT WANT TO EXPLAINED TO ME IN DETAIL - PLEASE. I have to go off and re-write the process on gving discounts to portfolio landlords and thats giving me a headache, so no more procedures. PLEASE!
 
To be fair (I'm getting that on a t-shirt) though, the people having the discussion are not teaching, they are having an in depth technical go 'round. Any of them might be very different standing in the centre of the school.

So is riding that complicated? Yes. So is driving a car and picking up a pencil. (Or, for you kids, using a touch screen.) If you analyse every separate movement, cause and effect, you could right a book on turning left. Has anyone watched Lie To Me? That process of facial analysis is fantastically complicated but the really interesting thing is how much most of us do it without thinking. The analysis comes in when people want to improve and/or we want to find out why some people excel and others struggle.

Riding is similar. What is Mark Todd doing when he sits on a horse that I am not? How much of what we call 'talent' is really an innate - or lucky - grasp of those 'micro movements'? It's tricky with horses because they bring their own motivations and reactions to the party - good and bad.

It's very interesting to watch someone very, very good ride an extremely green horse. It's amazing what they can get it to do. Is it that they innately understand how to influence the horse so it most easily understands? Is it really quick training? These are fascinating questions to me. How can we get the most done while taking the least out of our horses?
 
Supanova said:
I think the answer is yes and no! The little things about our bodies have a massive impact on our horses and lots of problems stem from rider position and posture issues, therefore I think it is very important that experienced riders appreciate these things and assess whether they can improve their aids and position cues to improve performance. However, good riders do so many of the right things naturally that they really don't understand what all the fuss is about! It is also bad to be over analyse too much!! So a balance is probably somewhere in the middle !!
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I thought Kerrilli's explanation was much better. It provided an explanation of the aids, including things like weighting of the seatbone and not tipping your head, without over complicating things.
 
I will say, too, that some of the most revelatory lessons I've had have been down to changing a tiny detail. I don't think it's right to just dismiss detailed analysis out of hand. But if you are paying someone to teach you and they are confusing you, then you're not getting your money's worth!
 
TheoryX1 said:
Oh My God! I found the thread and tried to read it, but my eyes started watering. Well, I am sure it really is complicated if you break it down to its core (sorry about the pun) elements. I know I have written procedures with my staff on how to rent a house out and how to sell one etc and my god it took me ages. However, do most of us really, really think about things in that level of technicality? Really? Honestly? I guess not.

Well to my horse it means that mum shoves her legs in a certain way around me and shifts her weight a little bit and it means I have to cross my legs in a certain way and bend my body in a certain way. Simples! I have probably got it wrong as at 20 years old and a bit stiff (him, well and me), we dont do leg yeild very often these days if at all. However, I DONT WANT TO EXPLAINED TO ME IN DETAIL - PLEASE. I have to go off and re-write the process on gving discounts to portfolio landlords and thats giving me a headache, so no more procedures. PLEASE!
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Then don't read the thread! There are more threads on this forum that I don't read than ones I do.

I am interested in technical discussions on how to communicate a certain movement to a horse, but, as Tarrsteps said, what I would write in such a discussion is not what I would tell a student in a riding lesson (I'm more likely to shout things like, "Pretend you have Pamela Anderson style boobs and want to show them off!"). Though that said, each student has different requirements and ways of processing information. There was a guy I was teaching who was studying physics at uni and who kept falling backwards and nearly toppling off every time the horse did an upward transition. I told him in various ways to try staying in balance and moving forward with the horse. But he said, "I don't understand. According to the laws of inertia, when the horse moves faster, I'll be at the lower speed and can't help but fall backwards in that transition. I don't understand how to act against that. Do you think you can, using the laws of physics, explain to me how to not fall back when the horse changes speeds?"

My answer was, um, I nearly failed my high school physics class. So probably not.
 
TarrSteps said:
I will say, too, that some of the most revelatory lessons I've had have been down to changing a tiny detail. I don't think it's right to just dismiss detailed analysis out of hand. But if you are paying someone to teach you and they are confusing you, then you're not getting your money's worth!
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I'd say most of the big changes to my riding have come about due to changing tiny details. For instance, I posted a picture on here of me riding and someone told me that my wrist was bent to the inside, not straight. I had no idea I was doing that. Next time I was at the barn, I concentrated on keeping a straight line from elbow to bit (which is what I tell students to do!) and had a much more fluid horse. D'oh!
 
As I said above - nothing on this planet needs to be explained in such a complex fashion!

Sure riding is complicated - all motor tasks are complicated, it's why it takes babies so long to learn to do stuff like that.

But is the best way to transfer that information to someone to use incomprehensible descriptions where adjectives and nouns appear to be being used as verbs? Probably not ;)
 
Caol Ila said:
I'd say most of the big changes to my riding have come about due to changing tiny details. For instance, I posted a picture on here of me riding and someone told me that my wrist was bent to the inside, not straight. I had no idea I was doing that. Next time I was at the barn, I concentrated on keeping a straight line from elbow to bit (which is what I tell students to do!) and had a much more fluid horse. D'oh!
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Right, so you straightened your arm through the wrist keeping a line from elbow to bit. You didn't extend the flexor carpi radialis, flexor carpi ulnaris, and palmaris longus and contract the extensor carpi radialis longus, extensor carpi radialis brevis and extensor carpi ulnaris in your forearm to achieve the same result.

I googled that.

Point being that there are ways of explaining things that HELP people understand and others that don't so much.
 
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Caol Ila said:
I am interested in technical discussions on how to communicate a certain movement to a horse, but, as Tarrsteps said, what I would write in such a discussion is not what I would tell a student in a riding lesson (I'm more likely to shout things like, "Pretend you have Pamela Anderson style boobs and want to show them off!"). Though that said, each student has different requirements and ways of processing information. There was a guy I was teaching who was studying physics at uni and who kept falling backwards and nearly toppling off every time the horse did an upward transition. I told him in various ways to try staying in balance and moving forward with the horse. But he said, "I don't understand. According to the laws of inertia, when the horse moves faster, I'll be at the lower speed and can't help but fall backwards in that transition. I don't understand how to act against that. Do you think you can, using the laws of physics, explain to me how to not fall back when the horse changes speeds?"

My answer was, um, I nearly failed my high school physics class. So probably not.
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But this bit really fascinates me, because the first person to clearly explain dressage to me and cut through the mystique and bull**** told me it was just down to physics... it is purely about the horse keeping its balance at all paces and changes of pace, not leaning in or out (or on 1 shoulder more than the other etc, staying upright) and weight being gradually transferred backwards as strength builds etc. Very simple explanation imho.

To your lad I'd have said that it's the same as if he's standing on a train, not strap-hanging, what stops him from staggering forwards and backwards 3m each time, as the train accelerates and decelerates? Anticipating the change of speed and bracing himself against it slightly maybe, using core muscles, weight distribution etc? In the case of a rider, apart from core strength, gripping with legs if not secure/deep enough in the saddle yet? Things an expert rider does totally automatically and invisibly. Fascinating imho.

to OP's question:
Does riding need to be so complicated?
Umm, as TS says, it is complicated, but it doesn't have to be explained in a totally confusing way, no!
The best trainer I've ever seen is David O'Connor. One of the things he emphasises is the difference between instinct and technique. He wants to make the technique really good and therefore kind of improve the instincts along the way too, so it becomes automatic to do the right things.
I think too much technical stuff can definitely lead to good old 'paralysis by analysis'. If I tried to think about all the stuff on the other thread while doing a LY in and out it would probably by abysmal! ;) ;) Thinking about a few things at once until they're part of your instinctive, innate way of doing things, then concentrating on another thing, etc, is doable. Trying to think about 15 things at once is not for most ordinary mortals! ;) ;)
 
For me, training is better when you are putting something into practise and building on it. I love riding because you can pick up the basics relatively easily. Then you carry on building on that foundation and fine tuning it. As you become more advanced, your instructions will become, by necessity, more complicated but always building on a basic understanding. I think is sounds far more difficult than it really is if you have to explain right from the beginning. Take halt as an example, when you first start you are taught to keep your leg on and squeeze gently with the rein. As you get more advanced you would be taught to half halt to prep your horse, then learn to slightly lift your seat for a better halt and feel when the horse has its hindquarters correctly underneath you before asking for the final halt. Then you want to feel that your horse has stepped correctly, is square in the halt and relaxed in its jaw and poll. Now you guys would not think about all that, you would feel and make the necessary corrections but if you were a complete beginner you would struggle!
 
millitiger said:
If I thought of all of my different cores, angles, activations, drops and each individual muscle at all times, I wouldn't ever get out of halt!

Thankfully my horses are used to my more slapdash approach and understand what I mean and want most of the time :)
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Amen to ^^^this^^^

I read some on here and think I should just leave my horses in the stable- nevermind let my children ride under my 'instruction' or ever dare go out to a competition where the public may see me!:o
 
meardsall_millie said:
This is obviously relating to the increasing number of technical discussions rumbling along at the moment.

Does riding need to be so complicated?

Without wishing to sound big-headed, I'm an intelligent person, I hold a responsible and well paid job. I've ridden for many, many years and have been lucky enough to ride some super horses and receive really good quality instruction. I have equine-related qualifications and my horses go pretty nicely and can generally manage to stay in a 40 x 20 arena and can carry out (pretty much) the movements required in a dressage test at the right place and in the right pace.

NEVER, though, have I received instruction to the amount of detail that's demonstrated on *those* threads. Quite honestly, I gave up reading because my brain was haddled!

Now I do accept that riding is a bit more in depth than 'sit, pull and kick' (although does it need to be? ;) ) and I realise that some people will always over-analyse, however if I was lacking some confidence in my abilities, I would read those comments and run a mile thinking I would never be worthy of sitting on a horse!

Is it all getting unnecessarily complicated? What do others think?

A
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It depends on what your goals are...formost AA riders who just want to play at level 0ne Dressage or the 1.15 m level of jumping it does not have to beso intense...the more you move up and advance...the more a rider must know.

Confusion can come though if one has not trained up or terms differ due to geography/language or term differences...alot of how a trainer trains reflects on how they them selfwere trained and the depth of the training they did
 
Caol Ila said:
I'd say most of the big changes to my riding have come about due to changing tiny details. For instance, I posted a picture on here of me riding and someone told me that my wrist was bent to the inside, not straight. I had no idea I was doing that. Next time I was at the barn, I concentrated on keeping a straight line from elbow to bit (which is what I tell students to do!) and had a much more fluid horse. D'oh!
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PapaFrita said:
Right, so you straightened your arm through the wrist keeping a line from elbow to bit. You didn't extend the flexor carpi radialis, flexor carpi ulnaris, and palmaris longus and contract the extensor carpi radialis longus, extensor carpi radialis brevis and extensor carpi ulnaris in your forearm to achieve the same result.

I googled that.

Point being that there are ways of explaining things that HELP people understand and others that don't so much.
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The differnce here is what you googled is overthinking to me....what you are describing is simply controlling the elbow angle...another words...the amount you open/close the elbowor straighten is angle control...and while somehere are making sport of it...it is those who will not reach PSG competitively is all

If one does not work the angles and learn to control them work with them...become aware of them and their purposes..IMHO...they will not go anywhere after the middle of the scales...angles are what allows the rider to employ aids/develop suppleness and muscle memory/ect

Anyone who pinches with the knee/closes the thigh/rotates the ankle pointint the toe out/stands/rides off the toe/has hands too high or low or close or wide/ect.....are not aware of the angles and their proper use

It also depends I guess on just how serious or in depth a person wants to go.

Let us face it...most riders are not immersed in their training...they have jobs...they have other obligations...riding/showing is a hobby...but those immersed in a training program are riding 1-6 horses/day under their mentor with larger goals in mind...they are the ones who doimmerse themselves in these details as they are needed for the competitive edge....and that is not for everyone.

As was stated by myself and someone else here on the thread...I am not teaching a lesson...I am not out to change the riding world..Iam not all that and a bag of empty chips..I am not even here to educate but if someone picks something while I share experiences/opinions/training styles vrs methods vrs tools'n'techniques or from any videos I may share-bonus

If my articualtion is different..please be patient...I have yet to figure out all the differing termsused as well as the difference in teaching/relating things...I am generally quick at this and will hopefull "get it"soon enough for you
 
The level of detail you need can increase as you move up through the levels and aim closer and closer to perfection. However, this is also massively down to learning preferences - for some people in depth technical discussion works, for others watching a video, for others being put into the right position hands on by their instructor - or a mixture of all of those. Everyone has their own unique style of learning that works for them. So if technical discussions aren't your style, why not do a video thread showing how to ride great halts instead? Frame-by-frame can be very helpful. :0)
 
The answer to the original question is no but if you want to do complicated things while riding, the answer is possibly yes.
I dunno, I don't ride although I love watching people ride. However, I love cooking and if I want to cook something complicated I'll need to learn some complicated techniques and practice - a lot - if I want it to be anywhere near perfect.
Riding is a skill and I think skills need to be honed even if you have a natural talent to start with. It depends what you want though.

What Jontydoggle has said (posted while I was answering a phone call mid-reply) is so true.
 
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Or get the translation of Harry Boldt's book, written by one of our very own forum members, ably assisted by another - both academics and successful upper level dressage enthusiasts. It has a large number of frame by frame analysis and what I think are some of the best ever 'pictographs' of the aids. It is also very readable and has lots of good photos! :)
 
meardsall_millie said:
I shall bear that in mind when next considering which level of competition I should enter..... :rolleyes:
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There is no tone of sarcasm/judgment/whatever in my voice...but if you are already at the PSG level....then you should know what I am speaking of....it is like the GP in jumping....if you are there....you know whether you are able continue to the WC level or not

Most amatuer riders who arebmoving up the levels stop at Intermediate in eventing....or the Grand Prix ring in Jumpers or Level 3 Dressage and stop...now that is here....do your amatuers play above those lines

I even find that those Jumnior riders doing the 1.45 have a goalin mind...the Young riders team...same with Dressage...most Junior ammies are going for the Young riders...the rest...they find their challenging comfort spot and stay since all they want to do is enjoy the horse while competeing
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*shrugs shoulder.....I did not say all individuals were the same...you will know if your fit the description or not..but the majority of amatuer/hobby riders do not want to go into such depth as they are not looking to move up the levels and believe it should not applythem...I disagree with the theory adn see someof the results in the H/J rings as the riders go around by the seat of their pants...you can actually see who makes the effort in their riding and who does not at this level....it is unforgiving to make a mistake in a triple in height unless you have the cores to keep you on the horse...richard spooner did use hip angle....in fact..he controlled it while the cores kept those shoulders aligned over the hips for rider balance
 
kerilli said:
The best trainer I've ever seen is David O'Connor. One of the things he emphasises is the difference between instinct and technique. He wants to make the technique really good and therefore kind of improve the instincts along the way too, so it becomes automatic to do the right things.
I think too much technical stuff can definitely lead to good old 'paralysis by analysis'. If I tried to think about all the stuff on the other thread while doing a LY in and out it would probably by abysmal! ;) ;) Thinking about a few things at once until they're part of your instinctive, innate way of doing things, then concentrating on another thing, etc, is doable. Trying to think about 15 things at once is not for most ordinary mortals! ;) ;)
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Yes, this is very much what I've figured out by myself. I have very fast reflexes which saved me quite a few times from taking a tumble during the first months I was learning. However my natural instincts weren't always correct technique wise. Just self preservation:o As my riding ability improved my natural reflexes were reinforced by my newly acquired knowledge.

For example, yesterday I spooked my horse by putting my hand on his rump and he bolted. I stopped him in about ten strides, bit blurry as I was trying not to trample a pedestrian! :eek: His owner who was riding behind me asked what I'd done to get him to stop. All I can remember is quickly checking the likely hazards; man, large tree, road with cars. While I was doing this my body got on with it and got him back under control. All I could explain to her was that I had kept my seat relaxed and deep legs long and around him and gradually reined in his front end whilst all the time telling him in a soft voice that it was ok. I don't know how many other little parts my reaction could be broken down into. Probably a lot more than I told her but they were no longer part of my conscious reaction.
Seem to remember reading somewhere that learning is broken down into stages. Unconscious incompetent : conscious incompetence, unconscious competence .. Though there were four stages ..memory bah. :)
 
ester said:
nieggham what's your competing level?
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Before I put this on board...because yes you will most certainly find me in the EC records...what is it like here

If you say the level and who you trained with you are a bragging bitor does this baord actually accept people for their experiences without judgement or telling thembthey are concieted/name dropping/whatever the hell else goes on that makes a train wreck

And if I do tell it honestly...will I be accused of being an illitest or know it all...because I guarentee you I am neither

If it is possible I will willingly say....If I am about to be accused of crap like knowing it all...I would rather post and have you guys decide my merit on those alone...especially since I know what I know and just how much I really still have to learn
 
I think 2 issues makes riding complicated:

1/ poor instruction
2/ gaps in a horse/riders education

If you follow a clear, correct educational process with horse and rider, they should be furnished with 'tools' at each stage that will be complimentary when they come to attempt the next stage of training. I think the difficulties arise when people overlook establishing the basics, and try to advance by skipping vital stages for both horse and rider, or not correcting recurring mistakes before moving on.

If you progress in a linear fashion with your/your horse's training then new challenges will be hard at first but they shouldn't be confusing, they should be the next logical step for you.

IMHO the standard of teaching in the UK is very poor on the whole, yes there are a very talented % of trainers but they are by far in the minority. There are plenty more tin pot, wannabee instructors messing up people's riding education and their horses' careers because they don't have the skill base and experience themselves in order to teach the whole picture.

If you want simple wise horsemanship you can't go too wrong imho by reading Walter Zettle, he makes life, horses, and the rider's job crystal clear in my view.

Also I think rider's need to learn to trust their own judgement, become aware of 'feel' for things, and then parts of riding start to become almost 2nd nature, and in time effortless....

that's the theory anyway ;)
 
I was only asking because you brought up the competitive levels being relevant so presumed you must be above them if that makes sense. :)

Given the experience of some of the others on the afaik noone has ever been told they are conceited etc and has respected/appreciated their input.
 
nieghham said:
The differnce here is what you googled is overthinking to me....what you are describing is simply controlling the elbow angle...another words...the amount you open/close the elbowor straighten is angle control...and while somehere are making sport of it...it is those who will not reach PSG competitively is all
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Nope, it's actually straightening the wrist. But you see how it's easy to overcomplicate things. I don't understand the rest of your post.
 
nieghham said:
There is no tone of sarcasm/judgment/whatever in my voice...but if you are already at the PSG level....then you should know what I am speaking of....it is like the GP in jumping....if you are there....you know whether you are able continue to the WC level or not
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It is perfectly possible to do a half halt, ride leg yield and half pass (flying changes, turn on haunches, turn on the forehand, etc, etc) and NOT be at psg level. Therefore it should be (and is) perfectly possible to explain the mechanics in language that is accessible to the less-than-PSG rider.
 
ester said:
I was only asking because you brought up the competitive levels being relevant so presumed you must be above them if that makes sense. :)

Given the experience of some of the others on the afaik noone has ever been told they are conceited etc and has respected/appreciated their input.
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Fair enough I will risk it

Eventing I competed to the advanced level...I only did 2 of these competition before I realized this was not for me...this was in my Junior years....during this time I also competed to (what was then) Medium 3 in Dressage

Imoved tothe Hunter/Jumperring when I began to free lance though I still had and competed the horse in Dressage
In the Jumper ring I have competed the GP level...I had no interest in the team for this level so only tried one WC competition at Halton where I did not place due to one rail....most of my experience is GP.....funny thing is...this seems to be the place I shine in...lol.

Dressage has broken my heart...this was the sport I wanted to be the top in...but we can not all be there can we(now I ammuchmuch older too)...I still compete and to win but the Olympics are out..so I now specialize in preparing the young horse and Young rider for competition with my business partner who has even a more impressive resume than me...she was the trainer of quite a few top German riders herself aswell as competing there moving up the levels...kurs and PSG is my top out....I have enough experience and knowledge torecognise this in myself and can separate the ego/id enough to accept it as fact

I still train and further my education for the benefit of myself but also for my students...I do not want to stagnat in my teaching anymore than I do with my riding
 
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