Does the equine employment industry have it's own sets of laws?!

alexomahony

alexomahony

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Looking through yard and groom website - it astonishes me how many jobs are advertised as under minimum wage, usually break the age discrimination laws, expect you to work illegal hours - usually unpaid.

I recently applied for a role with an up and coming eventer, which was advertised at £200 per week (Full time which is below min wage to begin with (£5.33 per hour), but - this is almost acceptable so long as you are offered accom. and livery for your horse - but then, when contacted about the role - the girl was embarrassed to tell me about the £90 per week rent for you and £140 per week rent for your horse - you'd be working for MINUS £30 per week.... good luck finding someone to do that.

Can anyone answer me - why is it that equine job advertising seems to have it's own set of rules and laws?!
 
I can't understand why anyone would do the job for that kind of arrangement, as there are plenty of yards that offer a reasonable wage, plus accommodation and/ or livery for your horse. I did one job that was £200 per week plus free accommodation and stabling plus hay and bedding for one horse. I now work for more money per week, again with accommodation and all bills paid, but without the livery. Even then it's not a long term job for me as I'm getting tired of all the unpaid overtime I have to do. There's nothing that quite beats having to come out of your house at 10pm on a cold, dark winter's night and help unload after a show, when all you want to do is go to bed!
 
If the wage itself is under minimum wage then I expect accommodation/ livery for horse to be free to make up this difference as this would be perfectly acceptable under the law as far as I am aware. However paying under minimum wage with no benefit in addition such as accommodation etc, is against the law. Personally I wish more people would report unscrupulous employers and give the industry a wake up call.
 
I think some equestrian employers think that the national minimum wage is a daily rather than an hourly rate. One famous rider I know of has had staff leave owing them money after deductions for accommodation, livery, lessons and lorry diesel.

The industry is long overdue an undercover TV expose.
 
I accepted a job on a yard which in the advert and the discussion I had with them looked like a good deal. Collected my wages at the end of the week to find I was effectively being paid £15 per day for 12 hour days. They had decided there were deductions for lodging etc which they hadn't disclosed. I left there and then.
 
NMW is an hourly rate - but it is permissible to make deductions for accommodation including any services like laundry or food if included, full livery for the horse and also training costs. So if you are working toward stages or if you are offered lessons, sometimes even the opportunity to ride at shows can count. It all depends on how it is badged. It should however be all clear up front in the contract. The BGA do a great job in making sure that laws are enforced - but where there are loopholes you can't blame employers for trying. Especially for entry level groom places where there will always be a long string of people wanting the role. At least briefly.
 
I certainly pay all my staff at least minium wage, I would like to pay more but I don't think my RS clients or liveries would pay the price increases necessary to let me do so. As an employer you find yourself in a catch 22 situation.
 
case895 said:
I think some equestrian employers think that the national minimum wage is a daily rather than an hourly rate. One famous rider I know of has had staff leave owing them money after deductions for accommodation, livery, lessons and lorry diesel.

The industry is long overdue an undercover TV expose.
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I don't understand why any groom would work under those conditions though, when there are so many riders who pay more or offer a good deal in terms of livery/ accommodation. I work in show jumping and there are good employers out there looking for good grooms - yes, you will be expected to work like a slave but you should manage to come away with money in your pocket at the end of the day. I've managed to save over £6000 in a year doing this job, and I still own a horse and have to pay for her keep.
 
case895 said:
I think some equestrian employers think that the national minimum wage is a daily rather than an hourly rate. One famous rider I know of has had staff leave owing them money after deductions for accommodation, livery, lessons and lorry diesel.

The industry is long overdue an undercover TV expose.
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Yes. I'm sure there are limits in place as to how much can be deducted and I think if it were taken further the employers might find that the loopholes don't really exist.
 
As others have said - it is legal to pay under minimum wage IF they are providing benefits such as accommodation, food, livery for your horse, lessons etc.

However if they are trying to make you pay for accommodation etc as well as not paying minimum wage that is wrong and you are well within your rights to report them; if it is less than minimum wage there have to be some 'benefits' that make up for it - problem is there are always people desperate to work with horses and they will do it for next to nothing, and dont bother to report employers who are breaking the law.
 
alexomahony said:
Looking through yard and groom website - it astonishes me how many jobs are advertised as under minimum wage, usually break the age discrimination laws, expect you to work illegal hours - usually unpaid.

I recently applied for a role with an up and coming eventer, which was advertised at £200 per week (Full time which is below min wage to begin with (£5.33 per hour), but - this is almost acceptable so long as you are offered accom. and livery for your horse - but then, when contacted about the role - the girl was embarrassed to tell me about the £90 per week rent for you and £140 per week rent for your horse - you'd be working for MINUS £30 per week.... good luck finding someone to do that.

Can anyone answer me - why is it that equine job advertising seems to have it's own set of rules and laws?!
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£140 a week for your horse. So you work there, but they expect you to pay full livery for the horse that you will be doing all of the work for, lol. I think I'd have trouble not laughing straight in the face of anyone that tried to pull that one!
 
I know I said to the girl - I won't work for you, but I'll rewrite your advert if you want! the rider is based at a yard and it's the yard controlling the livery price and accom. The only person to ever work there will need to be local and horse free - or very very well off and wants to go for the experience...
 
_GG_ said:
£140 a week for your horse. So you work there, but they expect you to pay full livery for the horse that you will be doing all of the work for, lol. I think I'd have trouble not laughing straight in the face of anyone that tried to pull that one!
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I thought that too!
 
I have worked for all sorts of employers in the industry and no one wants to pay a decent wage or if they do there is always a massive amount of free overtime or a struggle to get the money at all. I find it hysterical that these same people complain they can't get decent staff it's laughable! This is why it's full of kids long term it just doesn't pay so people move on.
 
40 hours is the full time "cap" -- over 40 hours/week is considered over time and should be paid as such.

I have a part-time academic job which is set at 32 hours (notional) per week. Am frequently amazed at the number of people who think this is full time. I also have a second part-time job (10 hours) + the horse business (ALL the hours!) :p ... Us horsie folk are clearly suckers!
 
I expect the reasoning behind this is if you have a full livery or competition yard with a waiting list then that stable space could be taken by a horse that was owned by someone who was paying the full livery rate so the YO would loose money if not deducting the full livery rate for the stable. If you are aloud to look after and ride your horse during working hours then the owner is paying you for looking after your own horse in the same way as you would be paid to look after a livery horse.

Totally different though if the yard also offers DIY yard and the person does the horse in their own time, then you would expect them only to deduct the same as a normal DIY client.

I think it is quite a tricky situation though with regard to jobs which offer accommodation, livery and lessons as if you add up the market rate for all those items it could soon add up to a lot of money especially if you were having lessons with a professional rider who would normally charge clients a lot of money or if you are getting livery at a high class competition yard with very good facilities. Bearing in mind a lot of people who don't work as grooms won't have a lot left at the end of the month after paying for their accommodation, livery and lessons.

To work out if someone is being paid fairly they probably need to work out how much they would pay for the livery, accommodation and lessons if they were a normal client at the market rate rather than as part of a benefits package and include in that the costs of anything they did for their horse in working hours that a normal client might be charged for but also take into consideration any extra hours they are working too.

I don't know how many grooms there are out there that don't want accommodation, livery or lessons included as part of their work benefits but it must be harder for them to find work if most positions include these benefits as standard and they probably don't get paid much more either.


_GG_ said:
£140 a week for your horse. So you work there, but they expect you to pay full livery for the horse that you will be doing all of the work for, lol. I think I'd have trouble not laughing straight in the face of anyone that tried to pull that one!
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I find it offensive that young people are expected to subsidise the lifestyle of livery owners etc by working underpaid and below the minimum wage.
 
Mooseontheloose said:
I find it offensive that young people are expected to subsidise the lifestyle of livery owners etc by working underpaid and below the minimum wage.
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Most of them don't see it like that; in fact a lot of livery owners are offended by what would actually be a fair price for livery services!
 
To some degree it's a case of market forces. If you take full account of all the costs, including business rates, insurance, the cost of land and buildings even if you own them outright, then most livery fees barely yield a profit, and it's only by having large numbers, and consequently heavy workloads for staff, that yards are able to make a living. Employers could pay more if clients were willing to pay more.

I think it's also worth stating that just as there are unscrupulous employers, there are also unscrupulous employees in the equine industry, perhaps because jobs are often casual and unregulated. When I ran a yard I paid 30% above minimum wage, sensible hours from 8.30 to 4.30 with breaks, full insurance and proper contracts, riding for those who were capable, and although I had highly valued girls who stayed with me for years, I also had one who started a fire by smoking despite it being banned, one who lobbied the local council to investigate our planning permission (all fine, but a load of hassle nonetheless) after she took offence over something, several who quit by text message, several who just failed to turn up after the first few days, and one who gave me a sob story about needing to be paid up front to cover her bills and then quit before doing the work she'd been paid for, owing me over £500, and at the same time 'borrowed' a saddle which to this day has never been returned despite my pleas. My current girl has been with me for three years and I feel lucky to have her and treat her like family, but honestly, I can understand why employers get cynical over time; it's exhausting trying to be fair and professional and getting taken advantage of time and time again. I also own and run a publishing business, and I have to say I don't have any of the same issues with dishonesty, unreliability and lack of integrity with the young people I employ there.
 
Is is really the full livery yards that offer the worst pay and conditions or is more the competition riders who can get away with paying less because young people think that working for a famous rider might be glamorous or have a status attached to it or they may benefit from training or from working with top level riders.

On most livery yards I would have thought the hours are fairly set as the grooms are not being expected to prepare horses for shows or groom at competitions which might involve very early starts or late finishes which competition grooms do, so perhaps less unpaid over time?

As a livery customer i don't think i would want people caring for my horse who were unhappy due to not being treated well by the YO's even if it meant the service was really cheap.

I would also add that in most industries young people are paid less than older people due to them having less experience and interns are becoming more common in popular roles and these young people are working for free in order to get the experience. I personally don't agree with internships but we have had interns at our work.

Mooseontheloose said:
I find it offensive that young people are expected to subsidise the lifestyle of livery owners etc by working underpaid and below the minimum wage.
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SO1 said:
Is is really the full livery yards that offer the worst pay and conditions or is more the competition riders who can get away with paying less because young people think that working for a famous rider might be glamorous or have a status attached to it or they may benefit from training or from working with top level riders.

On most livery yards I would have thought the hours are fairly set as the grooms are not being expected to prepare horses for shows or groom at competitions which might involve very early starts or late finishes which competition grooms do, so perhaps less unpaid over time?
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Yes, I agree it's the competition yards that are most likely to take advantage of young grooms.
 
Dont think for a moment that the Equestrian Industry is the only place all this happens. In Aircraft Engineering ,it is not uncommon for people to work for free just to get a start. To be honest, the UK maintenance companies make the average stable look like a goldmine.
 
I'm pretty sure the law says you can only take £30 give or take our of someone's wages for accommodation if they live on site no matter what the going rate is for similar accommodation in that area
 
My rather quick post blaming some livery owners for wanting their lifestyle subsidised should also have included those who consider that because they are a 'competition rider' they can treat their staff illegally.
I work in the equestrian industry and have seen the way young people can be treated. Some employers are wonderful. Some are not. Just because you have ridden in an olympic team doesn't mean your groom has to sleep on a pallet in a lavatory.
And be grateful for the opportunity.
Horses are expensive. They are also a luxury whichever way you look at it. I know some of us consider they are essential to our well being and I quite understand that. But don't expect someone to work a sixty hour week for a pittance so you can keep one.
Of course young people need training and some are completely hopeless. I'm sure that's the same in any industry. However, many young people working in the industry are still classed as children. They need support, training, help and if they are working, they need npaying. There are laws regarding apprentices, employment of young people, and so on. If you're not prepard to obey the laws don't employ someone and do the work yourself.
 
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