Does the equine employment industry have it's own sets of laws?!

[Cortez]

I completely agree that grooms, etc. should be paid a decent wage. Are you then prepared to pay the realistic cost of keeping a horse in livery/training or riding lessons?

 

[Tnavas]

When I took over the riding school I had been working at for many years I immediately increased the staff wages, from$10 per hr to $15 per hour for all the qualified instructors. I did deduct tax which was not done by the owner. However they were still far better off. I based their hourly rate on the amount that was charged for one rider in a group lesson. At this time the pay was approximately £5 per hour, 20 years ago.

I had no problem getting or keeping staff.

My helpers ALWAYS got a free ride at the end of the day - these were the kids that were pony obsessed! I remember my days of working at the riding school and never getting anything back. At Xmas they were all taken to McDonalds for Happy Meal.

There is a Chinese proverb - "Work without payment is punishment"

My first job with horses was awful, long hours, a leaking smelly caravan to live in and meals were inconsistent or never happened and we didn't have a way of getting to shops so we couldn't stock up with extras. I left after a horse was injured and was left dying on the concrete so they could get more money from it from the knackerman. I will never forget hosing the blood away. I never got paid at all!

The people I did my training with were awesome though, I learned a hell of a lot from them and they were so encouraging.

 

[Honey08]

I'm always harping on on here about the equine industry and wages. I used to work with horses and got out for that reason (poor pay). However I think that if you're taking your horse to a top level yard (and by that I mean someone regularly competing at 3* events and above) and having lessons then you are really more of a working pupil than a regular employee. If I wanted my horse on livery at a pro's yard and wanted two or three lessons a week I would be paying over £200. If you add in what I'd pay for rent on a house/room that's probably another £40/week... Would yo be better off in another job and just paying for lessons, or are you learning more in the grand scheme of things.. If you're aiming to go pro yourself one day it probably is priceless training on how a top yard runs.

I think it's better not to blur the lines and either keep yourself and your horse elsewhere (on a cheaper yard) and merit earning a full wage, or be a working pupil.

 

[sport horse]

It is not just the full time employer who is at fault.
Think of all the people with small yards/their horses in DIY, who hire casual staff for one or two hours here & there and to cover holidays etc. Very often they pay cash in hand. They never get a proper invoice as you should if the groom is self employed therefore they are just as culpable as the employers you talk about.
Often, neither the person paying the wage, nor the grooms are paying tax or NI. What is more the grooms will not be included in all the pension schemes that full time employers are/will soon be required to provide nor will they be receiving the statutory 28 days paid holiday that is a legal requirement for those in permanent positions full or part time.
Perhaps everyone who ever pays someone to help them with their horses should look, and understand, very carefully exactly what they are doing.

 

[Goldenstar]

There is nothing illegal or improper in using self employed freelancers .
It's exactly the same as having a cleaner or a window cleaner or a gardener .

 

[sport horse]

There is nothing illegal in using a self employed freelancer PROVIDED they are registered with HMRC as self employed and you receive and pay on an invoice.

In the eyes of HMRC it is the responsibility of the employer (ie the person making the payment) to ensure that the person they are paying is complying with the law. Failure to do so could incur a bill of back tax and NI contributions on you the employer.

Similarly it is the responsibilty of the employer to ensure that the person they are employing has the right to work in the UK ie you must check their passport and take and keep copies of said document - certain members of HM Govt have fallen foul of this!

I merely say this to show that the employer's task is not as easy as people seem to think and that while of course there are many employers over many industries who do not pay at the correct levels there are also many employees who also wish to cheat the system. I have even interviewed staff for full time jobs only to be asked for a specific day off as that is when they 'sign on'! Really? Not while I pay you the correct wage, with proper paid holidays etc etc. It take two......!!

 

[GlamourDol]

I don't know how many grooms there are out there that don't want accommodation, livery or lessons included as part of their work benefits but it must be harder for them to find work if most positions include these benefits as standard and they probably don't get paid much more either.

That would be me!!
Although I ride and compete as well. I get training on mega horses with some of the best trainers and I still get paid a decent wage. (although if my boss is reading this can I have a raise. )
There are good jobs and good employers out there, but you have to be a good employee and these jobs don't open up that often. If you see a yard constantly advertising for staff there is a reason!

 

[RhossT]

There is nothing illegal in using a self employed freelancer PROVIDED they are registered with HMRC as self employed and you receive and pay on an invoice.

There is nothing in law which says you have to receive an invoice.

 

[blitznbobs]

There is nothing illegal in using a self employed freelancer PROVIDED they are registered with HMRC as self employed and you receive and pay on an invoice.

In the eyes of HMRC it is the responsibility of the employer (ie the person making the payment) to ensure that the person they are paying is complying with the law. Failure to do so could incur a bill of back tax and NI contributions on you the employer.

Similarly it is the responsibilty of the employer to ensure that the person they are employing has the right to work in the UK ie you must check their passport and take and keep copies of said document - certain members of HM Govt have fallen foul of this!

I merely say this to show that the employer's task is not as easy as people seem to think and that while of course there are many employers over many industries who do not pay at the correct levels there are also many employees who also wish to cheat the system. I have even interviewed staff for full time jobs only to be asked for a specific day off as that is when they 'sign on'! Really? Not while I pay you the correct wage, with proper paid holidays etc etc. It take two......!!

Most of this is not true. It is the responsibility of the individual to pay tax not the person requesting the service of the self employed. They are not by definition an employer. The person is SELF employed. I know I have been a self employed contractor for years - I'd love the onus to be on my clients - but it isn't.

 

[sport horse]

Ok sorry - my info came from an HMRC Inspector and a Chartered Accountant specialising in Payroll.

As a self employed contractor if you do not issue invoices to your customers, how can they prove to HMRC that they paid you cash in the belief that you were registered self employed.

I employ self employed staff in various business situations and I always receive an invoice with their letter heading and self employed tax number on it - that covers me.

 

[Tnavas]

Most of this is not true. It is the responsibility of the individual to pay tax not the person requesting the service of the self employed. They are not by definition an employer. The person is SELF employed. I know I have been a self employed contractor for years - I'd love the onus to be on my clients - but it isn't.

However as an employer you would have to prove that the person was Self Employed as that person could also turn round and say that as far as they were aware you were employing them and were responsible for paying Tax etc.

Checking the persons legitimacy to work Self Employed is a sensible practise - as is asking for an Invoice and a receipt on payment.

IRD can be very cunning - have all the paperwork and you safeguard yourself.

 

[SO1]

I think there is some confusion is it the responsibility of the self employed person to declare their income and make sure they pay the correct tax.

If you take on the services for example of an agency worker you don't pay the NI for them or their pension - the employment agency sorts that out for that individual, if you employ the services of a self employed person such as for example a farrier, you are not responsible for their NI, pension or making sure they pay tax either, self employed groom would be the same.

I have always paid for farrier in cash and have never had an invoice and would not be legally responsible if the farrier did not pay his taxes or did not have the right to work in this country nor would all his other clients either!

It is useful to get an invoice sometimes if you pay cash to prove you have paid or if you are perhaps self employed or running a business and need the invoices to prove you have paid for a service that may be tax deductible.

Ok sorry - my info came from an HMRC Inspector and a Chartered Accountant specialising in Payroll.

As a self employed contractor if you do not issue invoices to your customers, how can they prove to HMRC that they paid you cash in the belief that you were registered self employed.

I employ self employed staff in various business situations and I always receive an invoice with their letter heading and self employed tax number on it - that covers me.

 

[SO1]

I have thought about this a bit more and now think if you are required to live on site by the employer so that you can work unsociable hours or be there in an emergency then you should not have any money deducted from your wages.

If the accommodation is optional and you take advantage of it as it is good value for money or it will save you money or time in commuting then I think it is fair that a reasonable amount is deducted from your wage. I spend 40 hours and £250 a month just getting to and from work living on site if optional might be quite a good benefit for some people.

I do think employers have to be careful as accommodation and livery if included in the package could be seen as taxable benefits. Accommodation and meals you can get away with as long as living in accommodation is a per-requisite to doing the job. This is probably why YO can't easily offer different rates for living off or on site for the same role as then the accommodation may become a taxable benefit for the person who receives it as part of their work benefits package. Livery I expect would become a taxable benefit unless the amount deducted is more than the cost of providing it.

I'm pretty sure the law says you can only take £30 give or take our of someone's wages for accommodation if they live on site no matter what the going rate is for similar accommodation in that area

 

[honetpot]

If you have to live on site to cover emergencies even if you are a sleep it is classed as working and you have to be paid mimium wage ie £6.50 for all those hours. If you live in HMRC say that its eqvalant to roughly £4 a day for accommodation for taxable allowance, but your employer can charge you more. But remember if you are on call its work. I do sleep in and I get paid even if I am a sleep. When you go for an interview ask for a job discription an ask what your hours are, if you are getting paid in training or lessons get them to write down how many hours you get and were a diary.
When you are young and keen its so easy to get taken advantage of,if you are not getting a good training you might as well be in Tesco,s and get at least minimum wage at 16.

 

[Tim's Girl]

I used to work part time for a local 2* eventer. She paid me £7.50p/h for 3 hours sat and sun mornings but have found now that im looking for full time its £225-£250 a week once livery and accommodation have been deducted as nothing local

 

[Leo Walker]

I mentioned it earlier, but checked just now. The law says if your paid minimum wage then the MAXIMUM you can be charged for accommodation is £35.56. It doesnt matter where you live or how nice the accommodation is etc!

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-accommodation

 

[Firefly9410]

40 hours is the full time "cap" -- over 40 hours/week is considered over time and should be paid as such.

I have a part-time academic job which is set at 32 hours (notional) per week. Am frequently amazed at the number of people who think this is full time. I also have a second part-time job (10 hours) + the horse business (ALL the hours!) ... Us horsie folk are clearly suckers!

This information is not correct. The government classes full time work as 30hrs or more. European Working Time Regulations sets the cap at 48hrs per week, an employer cannot insist you work more than that unless you have signed a waiver. There is no requirement for an employer to pay overtime at a different higher rate of pay, the minimum wage is all that applies. Though an employer would be daft to try to pay voluntary overtime at less than whatever your standard hourly rate is, chances are nobody would want to do it.

 

[honetpot]

Whilist I agree about the working time directions there is wiggle room if you live as family or the job is classed as needing 24 hr cover,ie foaling, sickness. The job I have provides 24hr care and you have to live on site whilst on duty,so according to EWTD I am working 24hrs even though for some of those I am asleep.I get paid for the full 24hrs although my day rate or wake up rate is higher.
I doubt if most equine employers ever think about EWTD unless they use a lorry,when the rules are more likely to be enforced.

I found www.crunch.co.uk and the Unison website useful

 

[Firefly9410]

The employee can enforce the rules of EWTD by refusing to work the extra hours if asked. Nothing the employer can do unless they want to be taken to tribunal for unfair dismissal or something like that. A lot of equine jobs are barely official and do not even have contracts so I doubt they are asking employees whether they would be willing to sign a waiver for the 48hr rule either. Employees have rights it depends whether they want to risk bad feeling by enforcing them, some people would rather have the job even though they get treated badly and all the while there is a steady stream of people who are willing to accept bad treatment the employers sadly have no incentive to change their ways.

Edit: honetpot your job is different they pay you properly and you obviously agreed to the situation when you took the job. It is good to hear from someone with a decent employer.