Blacklist
Well-Known Member
Three cheers for Anna_B
Does the TB Stallion sire have a future in the UK Sport Horse Breeding Industry
- Thread starter Blacklist
- Start date
Three cheers for Anna_B
burge
Well-Known Member
I didn't really get my point across in my previous post but the upshot was (even though I currently own and have previously owned a warmblood) if it wasn't for the thoroughbred most foreign warmblood breeds would probably still be pulling carts!!!
Blacklist
Well-Known Member
Well writ!
angrovestud
Well-Known Member
Not enoght studs are in the UK are uterlising TB blood its bings so much to the quality of the progeny.
Doncella
Well-Known Member
Eothain, can I please build a shrine to you & your (most of the time) absolutely spot on posts?
Forgetmenot, sorry, I don't know how to put this in a way that doesn't sound rude... but a show hack is not and never will be a sports horse in my eyes.
The Sea Hawk ridden by Harvey Smith was a top class large hack in South Africa before becoming a showjumper at age 16.
Lucky Strike ridden by Malcom Pyrah wasn't he a former show hack and didn't he win a Puissance?
Doncella
Well-Known Member
You said it.
Eothain
Well-Known Member
Now I'm sorry, but claiming Warmbloods to be a fad is a bit extreme. Thoroughbred blood alone isn't going to create superstar showjumpers. Eventers, yes, see my original post for more but for jumping horses it's a bit different. Like I said already, Thoroughbreds bring the blood and quality. The modern Warmbloods bring everything else.
I say modern Warmbloods because Warmblood breeding is where it is and no amount longing for the days of Ladykiller, Furioso and the other foundation Thoroughbreds is going to change the reality of 2010.
The Warmblood studbooks can, with thanks to their Thoroughbred ancestory, stand on their own 2 feet (or their own 4 hooves whichever!), but the simple fact is, Ireland and Britain need and I stress the word need, to get over the past, take a look at where we are and build on what we have today going forward. The breeding of the 60s and 70s won't create the jumpers of tomorrow.
Yes, one should look for high quality stallion descendents of those bloodlines to use and yes it is evident that good quality thoroughbred blood on the dam side is essential regardless of if it's 1, 2 or 3 generations back but to say the British showjumpers are on rubbish horses is merely taking away the credibility of any argument.
Peppermill ... Rubbish?
Robin Hood W ... Rubbish?
Casino ... Rubbish?
Portofino ... Rubbish?
Locarno ... Rubbish?
Rupert R ... Rubbish?
Rosinus ... Rubbish?
I think not!
I say modern Warmbloods because Warmblood breeding is where it is and no amount longing for the days of Ladykiller, Furioso and the other foundation Thoroughbreds is going to change the reality of 2010.
The Warmblood studbooks can, with thanks to their Thoroughbred ancestory, stand on their own 2 feet (or their own 4 hooves whichever!), but the simple fact is, Ireland and Britain need and I stress the word need, to get over the past, take a look at where we are and build on what we have today going forward. The breeding of the 60s and 70s won't create the jumpers of tomorrow.
Yes, one should look for high quality stallion descendents of those bloodlines to use and yes it is evident that good quality thoroughbred blood on the dam side is essential regardless of if it's 1, 2 or 3 generations back but to say the British showjumpers are on rubbish horses is merely taking away the credibility of any argument.
Peppermill ... Rubbish?
Robin Hood W ... Rubbish?
Casino ... Rubbish?
Portofino ... Rubbish?
Locarno ... Rubbish?
Rupert R ... Rubbish?
Rosinus ... Rubbish?
I think not!
Simsar
Well-Known Member
Eothain, just out of interest how many of the above horses were British or Irish bred?
Forgetmenot
New User
Eothain, can I please build a shrine to you & your (most of the time) absolutely spot on posts?
Forgetmenot, sorry, I don't know how to put this in a way that doesn't sound rude... but a show hack is not and never will be a sports horse in my eyes.
The Sea Hawk ridden by Harvey Smith was a top class large hack in South Africa before becoming a showjumper at age 16.
Lucky Strike ridden by Malcom Pyrah wasn't he a former show hack and didn't he win a Puissance?
Thank you. I have seen so many TB stallions that have sired both showring winners (Hacks/Riding Horses etc) that can also sire performance horses. Groomsbridge May is one that springs to mind, Ottergayles another along with Liboi.
I also think that whilst the warmblood has its place stamped in the future of performance horses, like most breeds there are too many lesser rate stallions avaliable at stud because of its breeding.
Whilst I love my warmbloods and have 2 proven stallions at stud with another ready to start competition, theres a glut of non starters at stud. Sorry I know thats off topic.
Eothain
Well-Known Member
Just one. Casino(ISH), who is by the Holsteiner stallion Cavalier Royale. Point is that saying they are foreign rubbish while they go out week after week after month after month and whup tail in the ring is a nonsensical argument.
There's a really nice young AES stallion called Billy Congo jumping Internationally. He's by the KWPN stallion Vechta off an Animo/Clover Hill mare. If you're looking for an example of what these "rubbish" horses can produce for Britain, then look no further!
Ever hear of him?
sallyf
Well-Known Member
Anna_B
New User
What I meant by describing the showjumpers as rubbish was that they are not bringing home medals- when was the last time Britain won a senior medal in showjumping at European, World or Olympic level? These horses might be improving and winning national classes and even Nation's Cups, but on the international stage Britain have been a laughing stock for a long time.
Eothain
Well-Known Member
A laughing stock? Not from where I'm sat, thats for sure. Britain is still held with the highest respect as a showjumping nation from what I can gather. There's nothing wrong with capitulating at a tournament to the Dutch, Germans or French. They're juggernauts
Serenity087
Well-Known Member
My child is half racehorse! And I think there is no doubt that she will make a lovely sports horse!
Maybe not flashy, although her mother can chuck out the moves when she feels like it (not bad for what's probably IDXcob!) - but very, very nice!!
IMO, the breed tag isn't everything. Some TBs are utterly useless - so are some warmbloods. If people were looking more at conformation, competition history and mare type than just the big names in the pedigree and matching mares to the right stallions to produce the offspring the industry wants then it would be more obvious that every stallion has his place.
Breeding, not breed, is what decides the best horses. And even though I've famously dissed TB's on here for years now, my little crossbred racehorse is definitely a nice foal!
Maybe not flashy, although her mother can chuck out the moves when she feels like it (not bad for what's probably IDXcob!) - but very, very nice!!
IMO, the breed tag isn't everything. Some TBs are utterly useless - so are some warmbloods. If people were looking more at conformation, competition history and mare type than just the big names in the pedigree and matching mares to the right stallions to produce the offspring the industry wants then it would be more obvious that every stallion has his place.
Breeding, not breed, is what decides the best horses. And even though I've famously dissed TB's on here for years now, my little crossbred racehorse is definitely a nice foal!
Truly
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately if the British and the Irish had been as clever and as disaplined at keeping breeding and competition records and promoting their stock as the Germans and Dutch we wouldn't be having this conversation 
The Americans had Gem Twist and other lines of TB Show Jumpers that could still win over todays technical tracks...but they all but let them die out because of the lure that Europeans had something better.
Wily Trout has still argubly the best passage because of his TB hind leg.
Oliver Townend said at a demo I was at that he preferred a TB or as close as because he tried the warmbloods that looked and were bred much like a TB but they ran out of steam when it mattered.
It's weird how the Germans and Dutch realise the importance of the TB but we don't!!!!
The TB stallions that built their dynasty weren't even our best stallions!
I just hope and pray that there are enough of us out there that still have the faith and the passion to keep these lines alive.
I also think the argument that yesteryears horses could not jump todays technical tracks is more to do with how our riders have improved..todays horses are better schooled!
MHO FWIW
Just wish we had a TB fan over here (England /Ireland) that had the business sense like Paul Schockemohle ..I don't think the Irish charm or the reserved English talk works anymore
The Americans had Gem Twist and other lines of TB Show Jumpers that could still win over todays technical tracks...but they all but let them die out because of the lure that Europeans had something better.
Wily Trout has still argubly the best passage because of his TB hind leg.
Oliver Townend said at a demo I was at that he preferred a TB or as close as because he tried the warmbloods that looked and were bred much like a TB but they ran out of steam when it mattered.
It's weird how the Germans and Dutch realise the importance of the TB but we don't!!!!
The TB stallions that built their dynasty weren't even our best stallions!
I just hope and pray that there are enough of us out there that still have the faith and the passion to keep these lines alive.
I also think the argument that yesteryears horses could not jump todays technical tracks is more to do with how our riders have improved..todays horses are better schooled!
MHO FWIW
Just wish we had a TB fan over here (England /Ireland) that had the business sense like Paul Schockemohle ..I don't think the Irish charm or the reserved English talk works anymore
volatis
Well-Known Member
Just wish we had a TB fan over here (England /Ireland) that had the business sense like Paul Schockemohle ..I don't think the Irish charm or the reserved English talk works anymore
Or the money! The sheer size of his operation and the ruthlessness is what produces his champions. There is no soft spot for a favourite bloodline if it doesnt produce the goods it is out of here. They know what they are looking for (in dressage horses and show jumpers) and if it aint good enough it goes. I dont think there are many British breeders that are focused enough on the end game of producing grand prix horses, we are still too soft for want of a better word. It is a serious business here, and there isnt the sentimental attachment we Brits usually have for our horses. I suppose when you have hundreds and thousands of horses, its difficult to get too attached.
magic104
Well-Known Member
TBH Volatis I would rather that, as much as I believe some people should double think whether their mare is good enough, I dont want to see us factory farm our horses. No disrespect to anyone, it is the numbers I am against not culling out what is not sound or a good prospect as a ridden animal. I am all for improving on breeding quality animals, but not at the expense of them becoming a number. I understand it is a numbers game, but I like the fact that most UK bred horses are treated like an individual.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why these discussions always become "because some TB is good in a sport horse, the best sport horse must be full TB". OF COURSE, "sport type", well balanced, athletic, ridable horses have a place in breeding for competition, TB or not. But doesn't that beg the question, if there are so many TB stallions like that about, how come they aren't beating the warmblood books at their own game? Perhaps some people want a "statement" horse but pros want a horse that wins and trust me, if you give them a TB that can jump - and win - GPs they won't have a problem with it. Surely it's the mix that's important? I love a G&T but straight tonic or neat gin just isn't the same!
When people talk about TBs in warmblood breeding the same names come up again and again. Yes, Lauries Crusader (whom I love) was "talent spotted" by the Germans and brought into the book specially - largely in a very specific attempt to improve canters - but it's not like the picked some random TB. They must have looked at many . . . and they only took him. Then they were very careful with the crosses. Then they assessed and culled the result, taking only the best forward into the next breeding generation. Same with most of the other "big" TB sport influences - they were horses that LOOKED and PERFORMED (even just in testing) like sport horses. (Interestingly, despite what people *think* TBs should be good at, LCs jumping influence has been decidedly average.)
Some of it may be that good TB sires command prices riding markets can't match. And their best offspring will stay in the racing world as breeding stock. That said, though, it's not like there's a shortage of horses coming out of racing and some breeders DO pick and chose through these for broodmares BUT they have to have the goods and they have to pass them on. Presumably, if these mares were the best for the job, the warmblood books would be snapping them up.
AND they have to be suitable for SPORT, which is about more than being fast. Many good race horses would be good sport horses but it doesn't necessarily follow, particularly now in the days of big money yearling sales and an emphasis on early speed. Sprinters, for example, are not usually built in a way that's going to make them top GP dressage horses later on. If you look at photos of "old time" TBs and warmbloods, in some cases they are virtually unrecognisable as the same breeds. People have spent a lot of time and energy refining and specialising. This might be good or bad, depending on your opinion, but now it just is and some of that process means horses for courses are increasingly far apart and not suitable for doing all jobs.
When people talk about TBs in warmblood breeding the same names come up again and again. Yes, Lauries Crusader (whom I love) was "talent spotted" by the Germans and brought into the book specially - largely in a very specific attempt to improve canters - but it's not like the picked some random TB. They must have looked at many . . . and they only took him. Then they were very careful with the crosses. Then they assessed and culled the result, taking only the best forward into the next breeding generation. Same with most of the other "big" TB sport influences - they were horses that LOOKED and PERFORMED (even just in testing) like sport horses. (Interestingly, despite what people *think* TBs should be good at, LCs jumping influence has been decidedly average.)
Some of it may be that good TB sires command prices riding markets can't match. And their best offspring will stay in the racing world as breeding stock. That said, though, it's not like there's a shortage of horses coming out of racing and some breeders DO pick and chose through these for broodmares BUT they have to have the goods and they have to pass them on. Presumably, if these mares were the best for the job, the warmblood books would be snapping them up.
AND they have to be suitable for SPORT, which is about more than being fast. Many good race horses would be good sport horses but it doesn't necessarily follow, particularly now in the days of big money yearling sales and an emphasis on early speed. Sprinters, for example, are not usually built in a way that's going to make them top GP dressage horses later on. If you look at photos of "old time" TBs and warmbloods, in some cases they are virtually unrecognisable as the same breeds. People have spent a lot of time and energy refining and specialising. This might be good or bad, depending on your opinion, but now it just is and some of that process means horses for courses are increasingly far apart and not suitable for doing all jobs.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Stupid forum . . 
In closing . .
By the way, on the subject that the British are "badly mounted" because of the continental horses they're riding . . . EVERYONE rides the same horses now. AI means anyone, anywhere, can breed to almost any line. (So long as it ships, of course, but that's another conversation.) The people who beat them ride the same breeding, as do the people they beat. There might be an argument that the Germans etc don't sell their best (although business is business) but then doesn't that beg the question, why aren't horses of the same breeding necessarily reaching the same heights elsewhere?
Eventing is a bit of a different game, for sure. Obviously the demands make it more TB friendly. But what does that have to do with sj or dressage?
In closing . .
By the way, on the subject that the British are "badly mounted" because of the continental horses they're riding . . . EVERYONE rides the same horses now. AI means anyone, anywhere, can breed to almost any line. (So long as it ships, of course, but that's another conversation.) The people who beat them ride the same breeding, as do the people they beat. There might be an argument that the Germans etc don't sell their best (although business is business) but then doesn't that beg the question, why aren't horses of the same breeding necessarily reaching the same heights elsewhere?
Eventing is a bit of a different game, for sure. Obviously the demands make it more TB friendly. But what does that have to do with sj or dressage?
maestro
Well-Known Member
TarrSteps has touched on a subject close to my heart, and Im the biggest fan of the TB owning a 15/16th TB Stallion who in many peoples opinions in his younger days could have succeeded in any discipline we had have chosen.
But there is always this talk that UK is under horsed when the reality is that they are undertrained/or underdeveloped, that is changing rapidly with Lottery funding, not always perfect but is creating a much more knowledgable and hungry rider.
The TB will always be the real quality that produces a sport horse and they are evolving as well as the warmbloods.
But there is always this talk that UK is under horsed when the reality is that they are undertrained/or underdeveloped, that is changing rapidly with Lottery funding, not always perfect but is creating a much more knowledgable and hungry rider.
The TB will always be the real quality that produces a sport horse and they are evolving as well as the warmbloods.
Truly
Well-Known Member
Oh God...I didn't mean factory farm them...I hate the way the Europeans do that!
I've seen so many imported warmbloods with socialising/behavioural issues because of the way they are raised over there (good to be ridden in a school tho')
I mean't the business brain and confidence to promote and produce them.
Most serious breeders over here are wonderful horsemen but lack the gift of the gab and are too reserved to boast and promote their stock...
Paul Schockemohle was a business man first I believe then a breeder/seller.
Most English/Irish breeders are from farming backgrounds.
It's like comparing Land Rover and Mercedes.
Truly
Well-Known Member
Stupid forum . .
In closing . .
By the way, on the subject that the British are "badly mounted" because of the continental horses they're riding . . . EVERYONE rides the same horses now. AI means anyone, anywhere, can breed to almost any line. (So long as it ships, of course, but that's another conversation.) The people who beat them ride the same breeding, as do the people they beat. There might be an argument that the Germans etc don't sell their best (although business is business) but then doesn't that beg the question, why aren't horses of the same breeding necessarily reaching the same heights elsewhere?
The British aren't badly mounted...we just can't afford to keep a good horse here!
Ben Maher sold Wonder Boy recently
Our show jumpers earn their money from selling not winning...our prize money is pathetic compared to other countries
.....it's a crying shame
angrovestud
Well-Known Member
I think if we are to really understand and change our breeding programmes over here we should infact copy the Europeans and find very good TB jumping lines we have done that here at our stud, but it needs to be done by a organisation that rewards the TB sire's somehow and create a market, it needs to be run and promoted along side the young horse evaluations british sires or something not bought in from the EU.
the photo is a two year old colt by captain maverick, out of a mare by Gunner B
he was gelded and then won the puissance, was then sold to the USA, the DNA lives on here in the UK but very nearly lost as we did not gather information no one collates progeny or cares, or even finds out if a horse when its done well has offspring,breeders arent all trained in research and its very hard and takes years to put the pieces together
and state side where his talent went on retired last year at 18.
the photo is a two year old colt by captain maverick, out of a mare by Gunner B
he was gelded and then won the puissance, was then sold to the USA, the DNA lives on here in the UK but very nearly lost as we did not gather information no one collates progeny or cares, or even finds out if a horse when its done well has offspring,breeders arent all trained in research and its very hard and takes years to put the pieces together
and state side where his talent went on retired last year at 18.
Blacklist
Well-Known Member
My thread on News forum 'Horses for Meat' mentions this: On the continent the big sport horse breeders separate the wheat from the chaff - keeping the wheat for performance and sending the chaff for meat. (or sending some of the the chaff here to the UK!)
Doncella
Well-Known Member
This has been my arguement. On the continent the rubbish simply ends up on the plate or over here.