Does this sound like a brain tumour?

[catembi]

Please no unkind comments as this situation is distressing enough already.

Horse - 17hh TB, rising 12. He has PSSM type 2/MIM p2/p3/px and can't really work any more. I hop on about twice a month to have a mooch round the school in the hope that he might have miraculously improved. Rode him on Saturday, he really wasn't great so I got off before we'd done our 20 minutes, untacked & put him back in the school so he could have a roll & gallop about. He had a good roll, jumped up & started the usual charging about & bucking. I was walking away when I heard a terrific crash & when I turned round, he had galloped straight through the gate & was lying in the ditch next to the school with the gate on top of him & some legs through the gate bars. He had a lot of scrapes but basically okay.

However, he galloped straight through a gate. It was fully light, so he definitely saw it. The others were on the yard in their stables, visible from the school, so not out of sight. He is used to being turned out in the school for 5 minutes to have a roll & a run about.

This is coupled with other behaviour that perhaps wouldn't be concerning in itself. He weaved when I got him, but now weaves absolutely manically even though he is only in for long enough to eat his breakfast (morning) or dinner & wait for me to finish riding my other horse, which takes 20 minutes (evening). He knows the routine and still weaves like mad, with the opposite foot coming off the floor, and looks very distressed. He also weaves outside sometimes, for example in front of the arena gate.

He is a lot more stressy in general. Used to be very laid back, but now stares up the field at nothing a lot. The stables are open all the time with hay nets, & he will suddenly fly out of a stable as if something has panicked him, then stare up the field with his tail up. Nothing is there. The others aren't alarmed & can't see anything. Recently, there was a kick through the chipboard stable lining where he must have double barrelled the wall overnight - stables were open so it wasn't frustration at being in & it was def him as the others' feet are nowhere near that big. The others are scared of him & don't try to groom him when they're all grooming each other.

I really don't know whether I am adding 2 + 2 and making 22 or whether there is actually something going on here. The vet is due here for one of the others within the next week or two, so I will ask when booking if we can have time to discuss his behaviour. I don't think there's any way of detecting a brain tumour though? Aarrgghh, I don't know!

 

[catembi]

He also feels a bit wobbly to ride, especially if asked to do something like leg yield out on a circle, or if doing a serpentine he is wobbly on the turns. This is only in walk as he really can't trot.

 

[Mustard]

I have one who has been retired for 10 years, since she was 7, because of dangerous behaviour under saddle, which no investigation could solve. She stares into nothing, and randomly gallops off as if scared and flings herself about. Much of the time she is lovely to handle but has been known to kick and strike out whilst being led. She attacked a vet's car in the field once, and last time we tried to load her, flung herself over backwards even after the vet sedated her. She often looks as if she has a headache with tight eyes and always rubs off her forelock. One vet suggested that she has a weakness in the blood vessels around the brain which causes pressure on her brain as soon as she feels under any pressure, so not actually a tumour. Apparently the only way to find out definitely is a post mortem.
I an following the PTS a 'healthy' pony with interest, as I am at my wits end. I worry about her being in discomfort, hurting herself, hurting a person.... Then when I think I've made up my mind, she comes running down the field to me, looking brilliant.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

My first thought was eyesight problems rather than brain tumour.

Definitely needs a chat with the vet.

Big hugs, the gate incident must have been very distressing and scary.

 

[southerncomfort]

Hi, I can only give you my one experience of a horse with a suspected brain tumour, but I suspect it will affect different horses in different ways.

First thing I noticed was that she was having problems with her balance. I'd be leading her and she would just sort of fall in to me or stumble away from me before correcting herself.

The next thing was problems with coordination. She'd trot across the field perfectly normally and then suddenly it was like all 4 feet went in different directions, almost as if she wasn't entirely sure where her feet were.

I also started to notice that her bedding would be all up the walls in the morning and she was very, very tired all the time.

I'd had her checked by the vet but he couldn't find a thing wrong with her.

Then she colicked and while I was waiting for the vet she lay down, closed her eyes and started trembling. At the time I thought she was dying, but realised later that she'd been having a seizure.

Two days later I witnessed, and videoed her have a full blown seizure in the field.

All other tests came back absolutely fine in fact she was a picture of health, so when the senior vets saw the video they agreed that she was having full seizures and that the most likely cause was a brain tumour.

They were very honest and kind and said because she was old they wouldn't put her through any invasive tests, and that there was no treatment.

I had her PTS 2 days later.

All I can say is if you witness any unusual behaviour, try and video it if you can.

 

[catembi]

Thank you! If I had been leaning on the gate watching, I would have probably been killed. Luckily I always retreat to a safe distance in case they kick over the top of the gate or try to jump it...never occurred to me that one might go straight through.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

imo, brain tumor or not, I don't think he's generally very happy in himself by the sounds of it and with the PSSM I don't think invasive testing would really be of any benefit. I don't think it would be out of the question to be considering QOL at this point.
Sorry OP, it's really tough and it must have been a distressing thing to see this morning.

 

[I'm Dun]

imo, brain tumor or not, I don't think he's generally very happy in himself by the sounds of it and with the PSSM I don't think invasive testing would really be of any benefit. I don't think it would be out of the question to be considering QOL at this point.
Sorry OP, it's really tough and it must have been a distressing thing to see this morning.

Id have PTS at the type 2 diagnosis if I didn't see a noticeable improvement in a couple of months. Its not a nice thing for a horse to suffer from and there's limited treatment. This behaviour now would absolutely and without question be cause for me to PTS. And I know its easy sitting here, but an uncomfortable, unhappy horse behaving dangerously being kept going isn't fair on the owner or the horse.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I had a dog that presented very like this. Used to have spells of shaking as though cold but not, one night woke us up barking and on investigation was looking at something not there. Let her out in garden and she didn't come back so called her and she didn't seem to know where she was. About a week later Michael saw her collapsing behind. We guessed something neurological and it was confirmed a few days later when she started fitting out of the blue. Got her to vet but she didn't come out of it despite rectal diazepam and was pts. Vet said probably a brain tumour, she was 13.
Something pretty serious would appear to be going on with your horse and in your shoes, given his other problems I would be considering pts. The fact the other horses are keeping clear of him shows something is going on.

 

[misst]

No idea and no advice but wanted to say how horribly distressing that must have been for you to witness and him to experience. Have a hug each x

 

[Velcrobum]

Having seen a horse suddenly take off into a high tensile fence which was scary to witness the horse was found to be blind when the vet attended post incident. Personally I would get a vet to visit sooner rather than later.

 

[Barton Bounty]

It sounds in the neurological area. Very similar happened to my friend, turned out from a post mortem she had been suffering from migraines and caused by a tumour behind the eye.

Sincerely hope its not, crossing everything for you.

 

[SEL]

yup - caused some horrendous fits with my friend's pony. He was elderly and apparently it can be related to a tumour on the pituitary gland. Only guesswork in her case because his age meant no investigations were going to happen.

They didn't know what was happening to start with. He went through the fence once and another time got trapped behind the trough - but they only found the aftermath. The first time she witnessed it she called the vet though because then she knew for certain what was going on and knew she needed to let him go.

I'm so very sorry you're faced with this decision. Horses are heart breakers xx

 

[Melody Grey]

Re: the gate- may be worth checking eyesight? Could the sun have been shining towards the gate dazzling the horse/ blocking out the gate from view?

I have known horses with brain tumours (proven and suspected) and I can see why you’re thinking that, I would be too.

Re: the general stressiness, could ulcers be a factor? I’ve known some turn quite neurotic in behaviour, very on edge….are ulcers a known factor with PSSM?

For god’s sake don’t get back on and be very careful in handling until you have some answers

 

[catembi]

Yes, ulcers do tend to go hand in hand with PSSM. I won't be getting back on - I got off early on Sat as he felt wobbly & he really wasn't enjoying himself.

I am not by any means ruling out PTS, but I want to be 100% certain that I am doing it out of medical need/QOL reasons. I had already decided to get a 5th horse (and get my xmas bonus tomorrow...) but I can't deny that my life would be easier without a 17hh, 635kg, aggressive with other horses TB and to stay at 4 rather than go up to 5. I know that a horse has no concept of tomorrow, etc etc etc but I don't want to have a niggling worry that I'm doing it for my convenience & am latching on an 'excuse' to justify getting rid. Hard to explain, but I know what I mean.

The gate incident on Saturday has made me realise that his behaviour has been deteriorating.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Yes, ulcers do tend to go hand in hand with PSSM. I won't be getting back on - I got off early on Sat as he felt wobbly & he really wasn't enjoying himself.

I am not by any means ruling out PTS, but I want to be 100% certain that I am doing it out of medical need/QOL reasons. I had already decided to get a 5th horse (and get my xmas bonus tomorrow...) but I can't deny that my life would be easier without a 17hh, 635kg, aggressive with other horses TB and to stay at 4 rather than go up to 5. I know that a horse has no concept of tomorrow, etc etc etc but I don't want to have a niggling worry that I'm doing it for my convenience & am latching on an 'excuse' to justify getting rid. Hard to explain, but I know what I mean.

The gate incident on Saturday has made me realise that his behaviour has been deteriorating.

If it provides any comfort, from what you have written I personally would be 100% settled in my decision to PTS.

 

[splashgirl45]

would have said PTS as he doesn’t sound like a well, happy horse… you need to forget that you have been thinking about another as that is clouding your judgement (I think). Read your post back as if one of us had written it and decide what your advice would be.. QOL is the most important thing IMO …

 

[TheMule]

May or may not be a brain tumour, but he sounds in significant pain and highly anxious

 

[Clodagh]

May or may not be a brain tumour, but he sounds in significant pain and highly anxious

I would guess his stressing is pain related, prey animals work hard not to show physical weakness.

 

[Above the snowline]

You know him better than anyone else but if you think he is a danger to you, himself, other people and other horses then I think he should be pts.

 

[IrishMilo]

I'd put him to sleep. My Connemara used to do similar sort of things. Run through fences, jump stables etc with the behaviour getting more random. Always thought there might be something NQR in his head but I didn't wait for him to kill me to find out!

 

[Xmasha]

Sorry to read this Catembi.

We suspected my old girl had a tumour , vet said the only way to know for sure was a post mortem. As even scans don’t always show them.

her symptoms started with a very weird head wobble , and her eyes moving more than they should . She showed signs of confusion. For example, if I stood by the fence with a bucket of food she wouldn’t come over anymore . (Unless she could follow the others ). I thought eye sight , but vet checked that and all was ok . Then one day she panicked in the field when she heard my daughter hack down the lane . She span so quickly and nearly knocked out one of the youngsters .
That was the point we discussed everything with the vet and agreed to PTS in 2 days . Unfortunately the next day she had another scary episode and vet agreed we needed to PTS straight away .
Hope this helps

 

[Boulty]

No direct experience with brain tumours in horses but he doesn’t sound right or happy right now. Definitely have a chat with the vet but given his other issues then it would not be unreasonable to PTS

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

If you're in doubt, as other people are suggesting eyes, you could get the vet out to test those, if that rules out the "what ifs" and then if nothing found PTS. However even eyes I'd be unsure about keeping going it would depend on level of sight and how he'd adapt to losing his sight/reduced sight if this is the cause

I'd be worried he'd have another accident and come off really badly and your last memories would be with him lying in pain waiting for a vet - better a day early. If it was just the gate incident I'd potentially consider a shear freak accident where something spooked him/he was stung but it's all the other things that aren't right

I know you've got 4 that are not ridden/walk only due to various ailments, horses are so expensive at the best of times, I couldn't do it, especially as it's at compromise to you wanting to be able to ride properly

I could understand a much loved horse who's given you years of fun but you've got 4 that are still costing you what a ridden horse would and this one doesn't sound like he's giving you much fun. You've done a lot more for some of them than I'd have the resources to.

I will always remember that poster who had the spotty back in the days I lurked that bolted including down the road

 

[nagblagger]

I agree with all the above, but also check liver and kidney function as toxins can builds up causing similar symptoms.
A wobbly disorientated 'blind' donkey = liver problems.

 

[PeterNatt]

I would get a vet in as a matter of urgency as the last thing you want is a serious accident.

 

[Snowfilly]

If it sways your judgement at all, I had a friend with a brain tumour and beyond the physical symptoms, he said the sudden overwhelming storms of panic were the worst thing he’d ever felt in his life. He was completely terrified by them and in the moment, had no understanding of what was happening. He just wanted to run away.

The thought of that happening to an animal is beyond what I could cope with. I would PTS and judge it a kindness.

 

[tristars]

I would get a vet in as a matter of urgency as the last thing you want is a serious accident.

this.

i am now worried about you, sorry, all sorts of scenarios running through my head, you leading him in, him falling on someone, going through a fence and the others getting out

and how horrible all this is for you, as you cannot know what will happen next

its a hard place for sure, hope something can be done, one way or another x

 

[hock]

I know the niggling doubt. But at this point I’d live with that and PTS asap.

 

[Ratface]

I'm so sorry that you're having such a difficult time with your horse.
Years ago, I stabled my then horse next to a beautiful Grand Prix horse who was usually very mild-mannered and affectionate to everyone, animals or humans. One day, as I was walking past him, he lunged over his door and bit me really hard on the shoulder. I was very shocked and went to tell the owner, who wasn't very sympathetic at all. Two days later he did the same to one of the grooms. I negotiated a move for my horse to another part of the barn.
Two weeks later the vet came out and diagnosed a brain tumour and the horse was pts.
It was really sad, but the kindest and safest thing to do for the horse, and the people who cared for him.