Does this stallion have a place in todays breeding 'marketplace'?

[treehouse]

Given the general economic downturn and the competition amongst proven stallions to attract their share of the currently available mares does this stallion have a place in the market even at a very low stud fee?

The stallion is question is very well bred, nicely put together and closely related to some top competition horses.
However, he is ungraded, has no performance record and is highly unlikely ever to prove himself given that he was 'retired' from competition at a relatively young age due to sporadic lameness caused by the onset of navicular syndrome. Xrays have shown slight changes in the navicular bones of both front feet plus extra 'wings' on both navicular bones which may or may not be heritable.

Would you as a breeder be prepared to use this stallion even at a low stud fee and would you expect to be informed of the diagnosis of navicular syndrome?

I realise that I am a new poster on this forum although a long term observer. I do not own this stallion and will not reveal any information which may lead to him being identified. I am not here to cause any ill feeling or to start a debate.

I have a genuine need for this information and this is simply a request for the opinions of the British breeding 'public' - does this stallion have breeding potential? Yes or No.

Thank you for your help.

 

[Maesfen]

Not for me, no, sorry but I just wouldn't risk it.

 

[s4sugar]

Barge pole springs to mind.


About time stallion licencing was brought back in.

 

[Posie]

No from me too.

 

[Capriole]

No. For a range of reasons.

Yes, I would expect to be warned of a diagnosis of navicular if I was looking at a stallion.

 

[Asha]

I wouldnt touch it.

The fact that you can get stud fees for proven competion stallions circa £1.5k , your only talking a matter of hundreds of pounds difference, which when you calculate the cost of breeding and raising said foal accounts for a small percentage of the total cost.

therefore whats the point !! False economy

 

[Amaranta]

Big fat no from me too!

 

[wits end]

No. Tell them to geld it, or if they can't guarantee it's future PTS. It has no place passing on conformation that might influence unsoundness.

 

[qaz]

No way. There are so many good graded stallions out there, even the younger unproven ones. Someone would be a fool to use this stallion.
I'd be livid if the navicular issues or any unsoundness issues for that matter weren't declared. Especially seeing that the xrays have shown deformities of the navicular bones.
Far too much rubbish being bred as it is without adding to the deluge of crippled paddock ornaments.
Tell the owner to geld it!

 

[EPRider]

Ungraded? If never put up for grading this would not put me off, if failed a grading I would want to know why and that may put me off.

Lack of competiton record? Not that bothered unless it is in a competition home then why not would bother me. Many owners do not have the money to campaign a horse enough to get a good competition record and many also do not have the skills needed to compete their own horse.

Good breeding? Helpful but the horse must look and move right himself no matter how fashionable his relatives.

Sporadic unsoundness? Geld him.

 

[Wagtail]

Ungraded? If never put up for grading this would not put me off, if failed a grading I would want to know why and that may put me off.

Lack of competiton record? Not that bothered unless it is in a competition home then why not would bother me. Many owners do not have the money to campaign a horse enough to get a good competition record and many also do not have the skills needed to compete their own horse.

Good breeding? Helpful but the horse must look and move right himself no matter how fashionable his relatives.

Sporadic unsoundness? Geld him.

This ^^^ I would use an ungraded and unproven stallion if I loved his temperament, conformation, and movement. But the navicular would put me off I'm afraid.

 

[cruiseline]

Nope not for me, there are plenty of graded, sound, proven stallion in the UK to choose from, with reasonable stud fees.

 

[Odd Socks]

Nope not for me, there are plenty of graded, sound, proven stallion in the UK to choose from, with reasonable stud fees.

ditto this! no way would I choose a stallion with sporadic lameness and navicular. horses have enough general injury problems as it is without having a hereditary condition. sorry

 

[noodle_]

never!!

personally though id only ever use a proven stallion with a competition record!

 

[vicijp]

Sporadic unsoundness? Geld him.

I don't agree with this. Shoot him.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I don't agree with this. Shoot him.

I would not use him at any price, however put the gun away ! Geld him and see if he can become a pleasure horse.

There is many a horse with sporadic unsoundness, I managed one for 22 seasons of fantastic hunting.

The horse I have now is an ex stallion and the kindest creature god put breath into. Gelded aged 8 and has good quality progeny in Holland plus an impressive bloodline, but he is far more use as a riding horse.

 

[Clodagh]

This is a very similar post to one last year or maybe longer...can't remember but it was much the same question. And got the same answers, no surprise.

 

[Capriole]

I was getting a sense of déjà vu as well clodagh.

 

[magic104]

Well that is 3 of us that can remember something very similar being posted. In reply to this poster, NO, NO, NO & NO. Even if he was free I would not use him, no competition record & yet he has navicular changes.

 

[competitiondiva]

In one word No....... and yes I would hope that the owners would tell any prospective mare owners of his condition.

 

[the watcher]

I would use an ungraded and unproven stallion if I loved his temperament, conformation, and movement. But the navicular would put me off I'm afraid.

I would, and have, used an ungraded stallion but I would also avoid one with a known navicular problem. I've no doubt this is heartbreaking for the owner of the horse as we all want to think that our horses have some kind of purpose, but practically he has no real use as a breeding stallion.

Having said that, there are people who would use him if he was cheap enough, but not the kind of people who regularly post here....

 

[cloppy]

cheap stud fee or even free - no way. The stud fee is the tip of the ice berg in breeding.

 

[Apercrumbie]

You can quite easily get a decent graded stallion for a few hundred pounds (I'm not talking massive competition winners here) so why would you try to save a relatively small amount of money for such a huge risk? Wouldn't go near him personally.

 

[CantertonManor]

No brainer for me I'm afraid.

Plenty of well bred, sound and approved stallions out there, who have lovely confirmation and temperaments. The stud fee is only the start, so if I invested in breeding my own, I'd use the best I could afford. If I could afford only a small stud fee, I couldn't afford to be breeding, so question answered.

No way would I use him to breed, if he were mine I would geld him and if the lameness is sporadic, use him as a happy hacker.

 

[Alec Swan]

Why use a horse with a proven problem, when there are some amazing horses out there, with some amazing deals?

Without the health problem, that would be a different matter. Some of the younger and beautifully bred, though unproven and ungraded are going begging.

I will be quite honest here, Gradings trouble me, a little. It relies on the opinions of others, and to be certain of the fact that they are unbiased, would always be my worry.

If he's old enough, for me a stallion needs a well proven ancestry, coupled with the fact that he has young stock competing.

If he's too young to have competing progeny, then he must be as well bred, as I can find, and the all important factor, I have to like him!!

Finally, over the years I've learned to listen to the opinions of others. Whether I act upon them, is another matter!!

Alec.

 

[ribbons]

I'm with Alec 100%

 

[Dry Rot]

What an impressive collection of sensible posts!

I sent a mare away to stallion last year only to hear later, through local gossip, that he has chronic sweet itch (which was confirmed on enquiry). The stallion is, of course, a famous show winner. Thank God the mare did not conceive -- I shall not be taking advantage of the offer of a "free return".

Why, oh, why do owners put such animals up for stud -- and then accept money without disclosing the facts? In future, I shall listen closely to the gossip -- let alone the advice! Of course, I've lost the stud fee and expenses, but I wonder if an owner does not have a legal duty to declare known problems?

Anyway, the answer to the OP is another resounding "NO!". The stallion has no place in any breeding, regardless of the economic climate.

 

[treehouse]

Thanks so much for your feedback, it's been very useful and very interesting. I tried to search for the thread that was mentioned earlier in the replies but can't seem to find anything.
So, a marginally different scenario - say a stallion was as I described; well bred, quite nicely put together, ungraded, unproven with no proven offspring but with a history of general lameness whether it be tendons, joints etc. but without a navicular diagnosis - what would people's opinions be then? Is the lameness due to navicular the killer here or is the ungraded, unproven, no proven progeny with general lameness equally as off putting?

 

[Spyda]

Nope, still wouldn't use him. The soundess issues are the killer for me.

I think you'll find responsible people won't use a stallion that's got lameness issues that have even the remotest chance of being passed on. Why take the risk? Breeding is expensive. Why knowingly producing a youngster that might inherit issues from either side??? Trust me, with my bench-kneed youngster (bred from perfectly conformed, well bred lineages) who needs the any extra risk if things going wrong

 

[qaz]

In my personal opinion regardless of the stud fee I would only use a sound stallion. Fair enough they may pick up the odd tweak here and there whilst competing in order to prove themselves but anything that is longer term lame without a specific reason would be struck off my list as there has to be a weakness somewhere & why would I want to run the risk of it being heritable? I'd avoid a stallion with any joint or back problems whether it was arthritic changes in the knees, hocks etc or kissing spine. I'd also steer well clear of crap feet. We have enough trouble and expense getting a youngster to the point where it can be backed without knowingly setting yourself up for disappointment.