does your horse get bored?

[tallyho!]

So how can one tell if horses who have access to their basic needs (including space and companionship, of course) are bored? Or are we agreed that a horse with everything it needs (not including people doing stuff with them) cannot be bored?

From my discussions here, I have come to realise that it is a personal matter between horse and owner. Whereas there are physical signs to indicate "boredom", how these are interpreted is a hugely personal thing.

 

[fburton]

I agree there can be marked differences in the way people interpret some behaviours. While there's nothing wrong with that in itself, it starts to be a problem (for me) when people use their personal interpretations to argue for e.g. working a horse at an age that may be younger than is justifiable purely on grounds of physical development - as in the other thread where the statement "doing nothing can bore a young horse" (implying that we are negligent for not getting young horses into work) was made. That's why I think it's important to seek the absolute truth of whether boredom exists.

 

[amandap]

It looks as if our perceptions of boredom are at different levels. I don't have superior knowledge and sorry of I came across in that way. Embarrassing!

Don't feel embarrassed, I meant you probably have more knowledge than me so I couldn't get together a valid argument.

I do think you are right, our perceptions of boredom in horses (and ? humans) are different.

I agree horses (excluding "people doing stuff with them") with all their fundamental needs met can't be or aren't bored. They might look chilled most of the time but in my eyes this doesn't automatically = boredom.

 

[amandap]

I agree there can be marked differences in the way people interpret some behaviours. While there's nothing wrong with that in itself, it starts to be a problem (for me) when people use their personal interpretations to argue for e.g. working a horse at an age that may be younger than is justifiable purely on grounds of physical development - as in the other thread where the statement "doing nothing can bore a young horse" (implying that we are negligent for not getting young horses into work) was made. That's why I think it's important to seek the absolute truth of whether boredom exists.

I agree and it can also be used as a reason to, as in your example here, do what we wish and perhaps give less consideration to the individual horse and the type life we give it. If young horses not in work are bored then it extrapolates to they should all be in work, surely? What about breeding stock?

I do believe we forget that our interactions with an individual horse take up a tiny part of a 24 hour period, I think that their free time is the most important to get as right as possible. If a horse is unsettled, mentally or physically, in the horse (major) part of it's life then how can we expect the best from them when we ask them to do stuff?

 

[Fellewell]

Firstly, apologies to those who suffer with depression as I understand it's an awful illness and I wouldn't wish to undermine their feelings. My basic understanding of depression is a sense of powerlessness, a perceived lack of self-determination where the sufferer feels locked in a situation that they cannot change. If this translates to animals would it show more in previously feral animals than those bred in captivity? I suppose it's the privation/deprivation argument but if they remember a difference and escape is not an option do they simply 'shut down' ? Are animals capable of becoming institutionalized?

 

[amandap]

Are animals capable of becoming institutionalized?

Very interesting question. My immediate response is yes but I haven't thought it though yet and no doubt we will all have different takes on the meaning of the word institutionalized

 

[Fellewell]

Very interesting question. My immediate response is yes but I haven't thought it though yet and no doubt we will all have different takes on the meaning of the word institutionalized

My take on its meaning would be total apathy and complete dependence on routine.

 

[PolarSkye]

Kali does . . . I use the word "bored" because that's the only word that fits (to me), but what it probably is is a lack of stimulation and nowhere to put all his physical and mental energy. If he doesn't have enough to "do" he gets grumpy, mouthy, paces (in the stable and in the field), finds things to "do" (like emptying his water bucket, chucking his rugs off his door, etc.). If he has sufficient "work" he is quiet as a lamb.

P

 

[tallyho!]

I agree there can be marked differences in the way people interpret some behaviours. While there's nothing wrong with that in itself, it starts to be a problem (for me) when people use their personal interpretations to argue for e.g. working a horse at an age that may be younger than is justifiable purely on grounds of physical development - as in the other thread where the statement "doing nothing can bore a young horse" (implying that we are negligent for not getting young horses into work) was made. That's why I think it's important to seek the absolute truth of whether boredom exists.

There again, I think people draw upon personal experience in order to make judgements here in HHOland. I know I do it, based on my personal experience and those people I know personally and have worked with, the same people who either share a common understanding of horses or exchange real life ideas with. These get transferred to descriptions of situations on here. I know boredom leads to depression/strange behaviour but its hard for me personally to define it. I'm not saying its possible or impossible, just that the starting point is a moveable one.

 

[TTK]

Very interesting question. My immediate response is yes but I haven't thought it though yet and no doubt we will all have different takes on the meaning of the word institutionalized

I'm old enough to remember the polar bears at London zoo weaving all day. Institutionalised & mad, poor things. My horse gets 'bored' if I don't vary his work routine, he becomes flat & stale. Perks up if we try something new.

 

[oldie48]

Some of the posts on here seem to suggest that by keeping horses in "as natural" a way, and I take that as mimicking how feral herds live as is possible, then horses will have their needs met. But we aren't dealing with feral horses, we have horses that have been domesticated for hundreds of years and who have become used to living in all sorts of different ways very successfully. It's fairly easy to see what we get out of the deal and horses get fed, watered, exercised and kept safe for what for them, is a minimum of effort compared to being feral. what it isn't easy to know is what horses have given up by becoming domesticated. Perhaps it's the ability to starve, certainly domesticated horses live a lot longer than ones in feral herds. TBH i think my dressage horse gets bored with working in the school and shows it in a variety of ways, of course I try to make his work as varied as I can because the more co-operative he is, the easier it is for me but the bottom line is this... he works about 8 hours a week (more hacking than schooling), I provide him with food, water, shelter, look after all aspects of his health and welfare, including providing him with a companion. If in return for that he has to do something which he finds tedious then I think he's still getting a pretty good deal, much better than someone working on the minimum wage in some mind numbing job. Before i get a flurry of posts, yes I also agree that most horses are happier living a more natural life, but most owners don't have the opportunity to keep their horses barefoot, in large herds, unclipped and out 24/7 and their horses still get looked after well and are basically happy (in a horse sense, of course).

 

[amandap]

Some of the posts on here seem to suggest that by keeping horses in "as natural" a way, and I take that as mimicking how feral herds live as is possible, then horses will have their needs met. But we aren't dealing with feral horses, we have horses that have been domesticated for hundreds of years and who have become used to living in all sorts of different ways very successfully. It's fairly easy to see what we get out of the deal and horses get fed, watered, exercised and kept safe for what for them, is a minimum of effort compared to being feral. what it isn't easy to know is what horses have given up by becoming domesticated.

Choice, ability to live within close, fairly stable units, freedom to roam... horses haven't given anything up, we have taken them into our world.

Does anyone think we (in domestication) have fundamentally changed the nature and physiology of the horse that has evolved over millennia?

 

[tallyho!]

Some of the posts on here seem to suggest that by keeping horses in "as natural" a way, and I take that as mimicking how feral herds live as is possible, then horses will have their needs met. But we aren't dealing with feral horses, we have horses that have been domesticated for hundreds of years and who have become used to living in all sorts of different ways very successfully. It's fairly easy to see what we get out of the deal and horses get fed, watered, exercised and kept safe for what for them, is a minimum of effort compared to being feral. what it isn't easy to know is what horses have given up by becoming domesticated. Perhaps it's the ability to starve, certainly domesticated horses live a lot longer than ones in feral herds. TBH i think my dressage horse gets bored with working in the school and shows it in a variety of ways, of course I try to make his work as varied as I can because the more co-operative he is, the easier it is for me but the bottom line is this... he works about 8 hours a week (more hacking than schooling), I provide him with food, water, shelter, look after all aspects of his health and welfare, including providing him with a companion. If in return for that he has to do something which he finds tedious then I think he's still getting a pretty good deal, much better than someone working on the minimum wage in some mind numbing job. Before i get a flurry of posts, yes I also agree that most horses are happier living a more natural life, but most owners don't have the opportunity to keep their horses barefoot, in large herds, unclipped and out 24/7 and their horses still get looked after well and are basically happy (in a horse sense, of course).

I dont quite know how to break it to you but, evolution takes longer than a couple of hundred years.

It's not long enough to alter genetics makeup and alter instinct and to think just by domesticating them, and the fact that they have been tamed equals they are somehow different to a wild horse is erm... fairly arrogant. No offence, I'm not calling you arrogant. I just think its an arrogant assumption of behalf of all of us who think they are now completely domesticated and couldn't live without us.

I do believe that if we all died of a killer strain of bird flu one day, I don't think animals would miss us one bit.

Yes, those who live with our help will undoubtedly perish without their daily prascend or bute or cortaflex (or will they?) and the healthy ones will go off and make a new life for themselves however is possible.

 

[oldie48]

Can't disagree with you but being pragmatic the world has changed dramatically during the period that horses have become domesticated and generally those feral horses that remain are endangered species and/or exhibit the problems associated with small breeding stocks. We can't turn the clock back and if it hadn't been for the growth of the leisure horse industry in recent times then how many breeds would we still have? I personally believe that horses are very adaptable animals otherwise they wouldn't have been domesticated so easily. We don't see many zebras going XC , pulling carts or doing a dressage test! I'm not taking a right or wrong position here, there's no point, but what I do, in common with most other responsible owners is look after my horse to the best of my ability. Do I think that domestication has changed the nature and physiology of the horse? Well, yes I do, man has bred horses for the traits that aid domestication, in the old days if you had a horse with a very dominant temperament you didn't breed from it had it gelded and if it was still a problem you probably shot it, whereas in the wild, that stallion probably served most of the mares. Also, responsible owners don't breed from mares with obvious conformational or temperamental faults, whereas in the wild, the dominant stallion will do the lot regardless. Todays horses are very different to their ancestors and I'm sure most horse owners are very glad that they are.

Just[ read Tallyho's post. Sorry if I appeared to be arrogant, not what I wanted but I'm not talking about evolution, more about selective breeding. Compare the domestic dog to the wild dog/wolf, they share some of the same characteristics but are really quite different beasts and it's fascinating to see how certain traits have been bred into different dogs eg the collie or the spaniel. if we can't change the horse by selective breeding it makes a bit of a mockery of all the studs producing racehorse, dressage of SJ horses, we might as well just leave it all to nature.dap;12335660]Choice, ability to live within close, fairly stable units, freedom to roam... horses haven't give anything up, we have taken them into our world.

Does anyone think we (in domestication) have fundamentally changed the nature and physiology of the horse that has evolved over millennia?[/QUOTE]

 

[tallyho!]

Ah yes, but we have only selected physical traits and temperaments. The genetics is still a bit of a gamble. We are not that good.

I do not think that it is a basis on which to argue that horses needs have changed dramatically from their wild cousins.

You are wrong about wild stallions mating with anything... if you follow the Pryor herd or the Dakota herds, you will learn that they pick and choose rather a lot!! Also, the herds are brutal! Any foal born with something wrong is heart wrenchingly left to die. It's not the fairy tale we think it is. I don't think this has been bred out.

What I think has happened is conditioning. We have conditioned horses to live with us very successfully but I'm afraid it will take a couple more millions of years to change them genetically. Or not depending on how genetic manipulation progresses....