Dog aggression

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Mitchyden

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I've got a rescue greyhound who is six years old and I've had him three years. He has lots of issues, he was extremely nervous of everything when I first got him and has improved a bit but not a great deal. His main problem is aggression when he's scared or hurt. Six months after I got him he was being really naughty so I shouted at him, he growled back at me showing me all his teeth, I stepped forward to tell him off and he flew at me snarling and growling but didn't actually bite. This was a one off as I found a way of dealing with his naughtiness without telling him off.

He also has major problems when you grab his collar, again he gets aggressive, so again I avoid it. He has a few issues occasionally with our Bichon, it can walk past him and for no reason Polo will snap at him. Also when Polo was injured by a dog if anyone went near his wound he'd fly at them.

These are all things we've learnt to deal with but last night he took things a step further. Admittedly he was asleep when my wife laid her head on him but he sunk his teeth into her head drawing lots of blood and only let go when she screamed. He looked very subdued after this and we know he shouldn't be touched when asleep but she forgot.

My gut says I should have him pts before he really hurts someone but I love the great big lummox to bits and he's adorable the rest of the time. Unfortunately my wife is now nervous of him which isn't going to help the situation.

Any helpful suggestions?
 
Can you get him checked out by a vet? He may be in pain somewhere. Are his teeth and ears ok. Maybe his back?
If vet finds nothing can he refer you to a good behaviourist.
You need to find out what his problem is before this esculates even more.
Hope it works out for you, but be careful especially with the small dog.
 
Hi, he has been checked by a vet and there is nothing physically wrong with him. The kennels that I got him from suspect he was badly mistreated before he went to them, he was terrified of men and is still very wary of anyone he doesn't know. We also have to keep him away from children as he's terrified of them too and we're concerned because he's unpredictable when scared.
 
I would have the dog put to sleep before it causes a serious injury -- either to your wife or the other dog or to an innocent member of the public. In general, this forum is not in favour of harsh treatment but this is one situation where either the dog has to be in charge or the humans. I have four working German shepherds here and if one of them growled at me (or at any of the other dog in my prsence) my reaction would be swift and certain. That doesn't stop two of them being aggressive when they are told a trespasser is a threat. The difference is, this aggression is controlled. Someone has to be in charge and there is no doubt who is the boss in your family. Sorry.

"Six months after I got him he was being really naughty so I shouted at him, he growled back at me showing me all his teeth, I stepped forward to tell him off and he flew at me snarling and growling but didn't actually bite".

The dog didn't need to bite. He'd made his point and is now the established pack leader. Sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind what the responsible thing to do is. I'd always be suspicious of a 'rescue' as some are passed on by irresponsible people.
 
Hi, I would have to disagree with him being the pack leader as he is normally the most obedient docile dog you could ever meet, that is until he is scared. Ie the first time it happened was the first time I'd ever had to tell him off and he was absolutely petrified. He knew he'd done wrong and was shaking. I believe he suffers from fright bite which is what makes him so unpredictable.
 
I'm sorry Mitchyden, but I'm another who would have the dog put down. At six years of age his opinions are formed and the chances of you correcting him, especially considering his breed, are remote at best. It's rare for greyhounds to be human-aggressive, but when they are, they are as dangerous as any other of the breeds which are recognised for their aggression.

Alec.
 
Your greyhound sounds as if he is prone to 'sleep aggression' which is a recognised problem with some ex-racers. The best people to give you advice are probably Greyhound Gap who have been rehoming ex-racers for years and are very realistic. You will find contact details on their website. I agree it sounds as if his aggression is escalating and a vet check is imperative as many conditions can make a dog more prone to overreact.
 
Mitchyden said:
Hi, he has been checked by a vet and there is nothing physically wrong with him. The kennels that I got him from suspect he was badly mistreated before he went to them, he was terrified of men and is still very wary of anyone he doesn't know. We also have to keep him away from children as he's terrified of them too and we're concerned because he's unpredictable when scared.
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In that case, you need to very carefully consider his future. A good qualified and experienced behaviourist may be able to help him and you but it would take a lot of commitment and time.
He sounds like a very unhappy dog.
If you do go the route of behaviourist, be very careful who you get. Check they are suitably qualified.
If you've had him 3 years and his behaviour is getting worse then you need some help and as much as I hate to say it pts May well be the most sensible option.
Also be careful of people who advise you about him being pack leader/ dominant etc.
It's more likely he is afraid of people but that doesn't mean he won't bite.
You need proper help from someone who can see your dog and your situation.
 
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It is, at this point, irrelevant why he is biting, the fact is he is dangerous.
This may sound harsh but you prefer this dog to your wife? What if he had got her face? She is scared of him yet you insist on keeping him with her? I don't understand that attitude I'm afraid, my OH got rid of a terrier he had that bit me and the children, I would have had a serious look at our relationship if he had prioritised the dog.
 
Clodagh said:
It is, at this point, irrelevant why he is biting, the fact is he is dangerous.
This may sound harsh but you prefer this dog to your wife? What if he had got her face? She is scared of him yet you insist on keeping him with her? I don't understand that attitude I'm afraid, my OH got rid of a terrier he had that bit me and the children, I would have had a serious look at our relationship if he had prioritised the dog.
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I do feel you've been a bit harsh as he didn't bite to hurt her, he was woken from his sleep and it obviously frightened him. This only happened last night and I suppose I know the right thing to do but when I got up this morning he was his usual loving self so it's hard!

Also it's actually me that thinks he should be pts, she thinks it's a bit cruel.
 
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If it was only last night then sorry, it will need to sink in, I didn't realise that. (Because I skim read too fast). :-)
 
selinas spirit said:
In that case, you need to very carefully consider his future. A good qualified and experienced behaviourist may be able to help him and you but it would take a lot of commitment and time.
He sounds like a very unhappy dog.
If you do go the route of behaviourist, be very careful who you get. Check they are suitably qualified.
If you've had him 3 years and his behaviour is getting worse then you need some help and as much as I hate to say it pts May well be the most sensible option.
Also be careful of people who advise you about him being pack leader/ dominant etc.
It's more likely he is afraid of people but that doesn't mean he won't bite.
You need proper help from someone who can see your dog and your situation.
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100% this ^

A qualified behaviourist ( not your local trainer) seeing the situation first hand will give you the answers you need. This is a good place to look for the right help:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/regions

They should help you make the right decisions for him and for you.
 
Is he happy in the head? Genuinely? This is always a question I ask myself and if a dog is living in a constant state of fear or concern or worry or confusion then I tend to only think of one solution. Sorry.

Also...it works for him. He's scared, he shows aggression to make the scary thing stops, it stops. This will be hard to override after several successes (in his head). I work with a very hard (headed?!) dog and I'm not a fluffy bunny but it's not something I would return with more aggression. You'll just convince him he's right.
 
Mitchyden said:
Hi, I would have to disagree with him being the pack leader as he is normally the most obedient docile dog you could ever meet, that is until he is scared. Ie the first time it happened was the first time I'd ever had to tell him off and he was absolutely petrified. He knew he'd done wrong and was shaking. I believe he suffers from fright bite which is what makes him so unpredictable.
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I had a (rescue -4 homes in first 11months) collie that had very similar issues to your dog-fear aggression etc. It was back in the early 90s and I took him first to a ex trainer of protection dogs who told me it was dominance and proceeded to throw the dog around on the end of a line, with a spiked choke chain until I woke up and took the dog home. I then took him to a behaviourist who recommended flooding to get him over the fear of traffic. I had a vet bf at the time who alpha rolled the dog every time he showed his teeth.

He was a great dog when out with me and we had many outdoor adventures. Inside battled on but I was the only one who could even be perceived as going near his collar. He bit my then bf, my lodger and later my husband to be. We kept two child gates between him and the step kids. He got so noise phobic when he was 9 that I called in a different behaviourist that gave me some good methods to deal with him-told me the dog was everyone's 'bitch' and that he was looking for strong leadership-but not beating or alpha rolling. The methods we used seemed to help the dog no end. When he got sick at 12 we had him PTS as he found the vets so stressful and turned into Cujo.

I felt so guilty about the various things he was subjected to by various trainers and people 'who knew stuff' that I tried to give him a happy home. He'd have been better off PTS to be honest as I am not sure the dog was ever really a happy dog.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
I had a (rescue -4 homes in first 11months) collie that had very similar issues to your dog-fear aggression etc. It was back in the early 90s and I took him first to a ex trainer of protection dogs who told me it was dominance and proceeded to throw the dog around on the end of a line, with a spiked choke chain until I woke up and took the dog home. I then took him to a behaviourist who recommended flooding to get him over the fear of traffic. I had a vet bf at the time who alpha rolled the dog every time he showed his teeth.

He was a great dog when out with me and we had many outdoor adventures. Inside battled on but I was the only one who could even be perceived as going near his collar. He bit my then bf, my lodger and later my husband to be. We kept two child gates between him and the step kids. He got so noise phobic when he was 9 that I called in a different behaviourist that gave me some good methods to deal with him-told me the dog was everyone's 'bitch' and that he was looking for strong leadership-but not beating or alpha rolling. The methods we used seemed to help the dog no end. When he got sick at 12 we had him PTS as he found the vets so stressful and turned into Cujo.

I felt so guilty about the various things he was subjected to by various trainers and people 'who knew stuff' that I tried to give him a happy home. He'd have been better off PTS to be honest as I am not sure the dog was ever really a happy dog.
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This is exactly why you need to be very careful of which behaviourist you get. Don't get involved with anyone who thinks he needs to be bullied or taught who's the boss.
 
selinas spirit said:
This is exactly why you need to be very careful of which behaviourist you get. Don't get involved with anyone who thinks he needs to be bullied or taught who's the boss.
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When a dog which almost certainly will have spent 3 years in kennels and training and again almost certainly without any form of human 'socialised' contact, a further 3 years in a routine which it doesn't really understand, is expected to understand the finer points of human kindness, no matter how well intentioned, then to expect that anyone can alter 6 whole years of learning, is asking a bit much of both the dog and it's trainer/behaviourist. Teaching such a dog 'Who's the Boss' is a futile exercise and most attempts will only end in a worsening situation.

My previous question, despite the OP being present doesn't seem to have been answered. 'If' the dog was on the sofa when his wife laid on the dog, and considering that being able to share a bed with a human has a now confused dog believing that humans are his equal, so with a dog which has shown a previous level of aggression, the first step should be that he has 'his' bed and it's a place of sanctuary. I never have dogs on the furniture, but accept that there will be those dogs which have no wish to assert their dominance. The dog in question almost certainly isn't one of them!

For the average owner (indeed, trainer!), reinforcing discipline in a mature dog which is likely to react by retaliating, never works when 'force' is involved. Over the years I've had several dogs which have needed handling with a degree of caution, and preventing the at-risk situations from arising, is the only route that I've found to be effective. I've never managed to get the better of a mature dog which is prepared to stand up to me, by 'force' and have no wish to. There are other ways, but as the OP has allowed the situation to arise, sadly my advice remains the same, unless they wish to spend the next few years tip-toeing around the dog.

Alec.
 
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I think that before you make a decision that you'll keep this dog and maybe explore behaviourists/behaviour modification you need to have a very long hard think about how you are going to manage him day to day. Because whatever way you look at it you have a dangerous dog.

You and anybody else in your household including regular visitors will always have to be vigilant about how the dog is handled - you know that his reaction is to bite - not growl or even nip - first, ask questions after.
What happens if he needs to go into kennels?
Or at the vets? While the vets and nurses should have the sense to keep them safe, what would you do if someone approached him the waiting room?
Or while you are walking?
Or if he got out or got loose for any reason?

If you can honestly say that you can manage the above as will your wife (and her understandable nervousness now will probably make an already nervy dog more unreliable) plus any visitors then you could consider keeping him. In doing so, you are potentially opening yourselves to huge stress and prosecution if your precautions fail with the guilt of having a dog that has seriously injured someone. Don't underestimate the strain of managing this - it won't be easy and even if you can control the dog and his environment , you can't control other peoples actions...

In saying that, it can be done. A behaviourist could help but I suspect that they will be training you to manage as above rather than being able to reliably change such ingrained reactions in the dog. The thing that I would struggle with more is that if things went wrong, the dog could end up in a kennels, with strangers, under huge stress before being PTS and you in court and someone injured. I don't know that I could consider that an acceptable risk but of course you may differ.

I'm so sorry. Whatever route you take isn't going to be easy.
 
Either you manage his situation, e.g by not permitting him on the sofa or to sleep where you might need to disturb him with kennels/cratses etc. so that he never has an opportunity to bite and you can enjoy him walking etc. and he can enjoy that.
or your pts.
 
Poor dog and poor family.

All the dominant aggressive poop that is being spouted, the dog is only aggressive when scared=by definition fear aggressive. It is actually a much harder situation to resolve than dominance, the dog does however need to feel safe and secure and in order to feel that it needs consistant confident leadership. That said I am not always a supporter of trying to work through these issues;
the dog is living in a fearful place if it feels the need to react the way it does-is that fair/do you think that you and ALL of the people around the dog can provide what this dog needs for life?
Is it fair to put people at risk?
I also have to say I would never put myself or my dog at risk by laying on it when it is sleeping regardless of the fact you could knock me down with a feather if she did anything about it-it really is not a good idea-I hope your wife is ok and she really should get antibiotics and get her tetnus status checked.
I would PTS as I am not sure I could live on the knife edge that a dog behaving like this must create.
 
But did the dog 'take things a step further'?

What's the old addige? Let sleeping digs lie....

Would you be having thoughts about putting the dog down if last nights episode hadn't happened?
 
What set my alarm bells going is the fact that your wife thought it was acceptable to use the dog as a pillow with his history, I wouldn't do that with any of mine and I know they wouldnt react.

Its obvious the dog has not learnt any boundaries and can do virtually what he wants so helping to set up the situation you find yourself in today.

This dog has been failed, it was failed by the rescue who either hadn't assessed it properly or because they placed it in a home that was not suitable for a dog like this. Given that this has been allowed to continue and escalate I can only see one outcome and that is pts. OP you might think I'm being harsh here but this dog was outside your experience and instead of having strict boundaries and routines which a fearful dog desperately needs and addressing any issues as they arise you have worked around the situation without addressing them. At the very least the rescue if you contacted them should either have offered advice with a recommended behaviourist or taken the dog back,
 
SusieT said:
Either you manage his situation, e.g by not permitting him on the sofa or to sleep where you might need to disturb him with kennels/cratses etc. so that he never has an opportunity to bite and you can enjoy him walking etc. and he can enjoy that.
or your pts.
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Totally agree, I think you've made the mistake (a lot of people do) of thinking this dog will slot into your household and become a perfect family pet and keep giving him the benefit of the doubt. This is always a dog you will need to manage and have a plan in place and a script for and not deviate from it, in order to keep everyone happy.
That won't slide in most normal households and takes a lot of commitment.
 
Dobiegirl said:
……..

This dog …….., it was failed by the rescue who either hadn't assessed it properly or because they placed it in a home that was not suitable for a dog like this. …….. ,
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The basis of the problem, though not with all, but the vast majority, is that assessing the temperament or the likely future conduct of a dog is completely beyond the average 'rescue'. However well intentioned, most haven't the faintest idea what they're doing.

Alec.
 
Dobiegirl said:
What set my alarm bells going is the fact that your wife thought it was acceptable to use the dog as a pillow with his history, I wouldn't do that with any of mine and I know they wouldnt react.

Its obvious the dog has not learnt any boundaries and can do virtually what he wants so helping to set up the situation you find yourself in today.

This dog has been failed, it was failed by the rescue who either hadn't assessed it properly or because they placed it in a home that was not suitable for a dog like this. Given that this has been allowed to continue and escalate I can only see one outcome and that is pts. OP you might think I'm being harsh here but this dog was outside your experience and instead of having strict boundaries and routines which a fearful dog desperately needs and addressing any issues as they arise you have worked around the situation without addressing them. At the very least the rescue if you contacted them should either have offered advice with a recommended behaviourist or taken the dog back,
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This. Every word. Our first rescue had aggression issues . . . dogs like this are not for the fainthearted, nor the inexperienced. They need very firm/fair boundaries and everyone in the house needs to adhere to them. They should NEVER be allowed on the furniture, should be taught to be respectful around food - but on the other hand they need their own private space and humans need to be careful about crossing the dog's boundaries too - feed them in a quiet, safe place so they can eat undisturbed, let them sleep in a quiet, safe place and be very careful about body language triggers - standing "over" a fear aggressive dog can trigger a reaction because they feel threatened (by way of a simple example) - never mind lying on one/using it as a pillow.

Honestly, I'd be taking a very cold, hard look at whether you are prepared to put some very strict boundaries in place and whether both of you (and any visitors) can stick to them to keep you all safe - or whether you need to consider having this poor, unhappy dog PTS.

And I completely agree that the rescue let you down.

P

P.S. By enforcing boundaries, I do not mean bullying the dog . . . not only is it extremely unkind, but that way disaster lies . . . a dog like this will meet aggression with aggression :(.
 
What has the rescue said? Most would have provide a behaviourist way before now. Also PTS usually has to come from the rescue, not the person adopting.

How you have handled the dog is incorrect and has caused the escalations unfortunately - any dog is capable of this behaviour. You need a behaviourist urgently who is capable of training you how to deal with this behaviour - one who doesn't use the words 'top dog' 'pack leader' and the like...
 
My dog was like this but probably far far worse when I got him. It took a month to show itself, but once he had got over the shock of moving out of kennels and having to deal with real life the world became unbearably stressful for him. The difference for me was that I could put him in the shower, clip his toe nails, inspect wounds etc without a problem - it was just all the normal day-to-day stuff like carrying a cup of tea, walking slowly, walking differently, getting up, anything related to food, the list goes on. I didn't want to meet aggression with aggression, but couldn't even if I wanted to - any sign of retaliation on my part would result in injury or very close to it.
He is now an amazingly happy and talented boy. He still needs his life managing but nothing that is any bother to me - he goes to his room when I have guests I can't trust, he doesn't get touched by strangers out and about (he is capable of it safely, but I don't see the point in stressing him unnecessarily) - and he is delightful to live with, shares the sofa, shares the bed, anything.
It took an enormous amount of work and consistency, I had to learn very quickly the very depths of positive reinforcement, redirection and staying calm, but we did it. He is the poster boy for positive reinforcement, no positive punishment was used at any time. He gradually learned to growl instead of going from nothing to bite - and I learned to listen to him. Him growling and me backing off doesn't mean he has won, it just means I understand he is uncomfortable and I need to do things differently. He now tells me very politely when he is unhappy, I'd be an idiot to ignore it. I hate it when people punish a dog for growling - it is just them talking to us, what else are they supposed to do to tell us they are unhappy?
Would I do it again? I don't know. Looking back, I often question that. It took so, so much out of both of us, if I had him again now with the time constraints and other people coming and going more (I lived on my own before and was home almost all of every day) I don't think I could do it. I see other rescue dogs looking for similar homes, and wonder if it really is the best thing to keep them alive in the hope of that special home. My dog is amazing, but this world is not easy for him. If I had sent him back I strongly doubt he would ever have been rehomed, he would have spent the rest of his life in a kennel on his own because he couldn't be trusted to settle with another dog for company.
This situation is difficult because you already know the dog, he is yours, but unless you are prepared to listen to him and respond to his fears in a way that makes them easier for him to deal with, then I don't see how he can ever feel safe. I can put my head on my dog while he is sleeping now, but I wouldn't - because why should I? If he is asleep, then he is left undisturbed, just as I would want to be.
If you want to keep him then I would also strongly advise seeking good professional help, and be prepared for managing his environment and everyone who comes into contact. It is hard. It makes life awkward. It doesn't bother me because I have never had a different dog, it is just second nature now, but I know I do things very differently to most dog owners I come into contact with. You have to protect him. If you can't do this to keep him and the people around him safe from each other then he either needs to find a home that is prepared to do this in full understanding of his behaviours (which is a huge challenge) or PTS. It's not fair on either party to live in a state of fear.
 
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Alec Swan said:
The basis of the problem, though not with all, but the vast majority, is that assessing the temperament or the likely future conduct of a dog is completely beyond the average 'rescue'. However well intentioned, most haven't the faintest idea what they're doing.

Alec.
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I think that is so unfair and would like to know what experience you have of this to draw that conclusion, the rescues Ive worked With have gone above and beyond to matching the correct dog to the right home and will be fairly assessed with ongoing support and back-up. Not all rescues do this I know so its wrong to lump all rescues in together, I know you dont like rescues for some reason but it certainly hasnt been my experience, take Cayla for example and her rescue, the work she does with dogs is exceptional and she has probably handled more dogs and trained them than most of us have had hot dinners.
 
Alec Swan said:
The basis of the problem, though not with all, but the vast majority, is that assessing the temperament or the likely future conduct of a dog is completely beyond the average 'rescue'. However well intentioned, most haven't the faintest idea what they're doing.

Alec.
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Dobiegirl said:
I think that is so unfair and would like to know what experience you have of this to draw that conclusion, the rescues Ive worked With have gone above and beyond to matching the correct dog to the right home and will be fairly assessed with ongoing support and back-up. Not all rescues do this I know so its wrong to lump all rescues in together, I know you dont like rescues for some reason but it certainly hasnt been my experience, take Cayla for example and her rescue, the work she does with dogs is exceptional and she has probably handled more dogs and trained them than most of us have had hot dinners.
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Consider the bold print above which you seem to have ignored. You can offer all of the exceptions that you like, and I haven't denied that Cayla and her kind exist, but the simple fact remains that we only have to read on here and witness in every day life of the disasters that are handed out by some rescue centres because those who run them simply and either, don't know what they're looking at, or take dogs in, shut them in kennels and haven't the faintest idea just how the dog is likely to react to a home environment.

Your apparent blind faith is no more than naivety if you honestly believe that the success rate from the bulk of rescue centres is acceptable. I accept that the bulk of such centres will be well meaning but I know of 4 people who work locally and whilst admiring their intentions, the simple fact is that I wouldn't give them a dog to take for a walk, far less assess the animals likely state of mind. Sorry, but that IS my experience and I suspect that I'm not alone.

Alec.
 
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