Dog attacking our chickens - what to do?

[Alec Swan]

Alec, this is a genuine question ... and forgive me if I have muddled you up with someone else, but was it not you who described me as "barbaric" for using an e collar??!

If I remember correctly, could you explain to me why "attacking the bloody dog" - and I presume by that you mean using physical violence on the poor animal - is somehow less barbaric than giving it a nick or zap with an e collar?

By all means, and I apologise for being otherwise occupied.

The canine mind is actually a relatively simple engine. It relies upon pleasure and pain. That's not "necessarily" physical pain, but a sense of discomfort or disquiet. The trained dog is an extension of it's handler, and is a willing and welcome servant.

How do we achieve the happy state of discipline? That's simple, we either buy an electrical aid, and carefully follow the instructions, OR, we learn how to interact with a dog, we learn how to have the dog listen, how to make eye contact, and how to teach the dog to accept our instructions and our demands. The dog trainer uses one system, and those who aren't dog trainers, but think that they are, use the other. Work it out for yourself, which is which.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

You can also give the dog a stim from an e-collar and then feed it, so the dog associates a correction with an immediate positive.

Honestly? Correct any dog, and then administer pleasure, and you will teach the dog to ignore the correction.

Unless I've misunderstood you, I'm staggered at your quote.

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I still do not agree at all with using the hand as a tool of punishment as well as pleasure.

Just wondering when things like e-collars and choke chains are banned (like they are already in some countries) what you'll use?!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Honestly? Correct any dog, and then administer pleasure, and you will teach the dog to ignore the correction.

Unless I've misunderstood you, I'm staggered at your quote.

Alec.

You have misunderstood me. It's pressure and release - correct the unwanted behaviour by applying pressure (tightness on a lead).
The dog executes the behaviour you want - the first positive is the release of pressure (loosen the lead), the second positive is a vocal marker that the dog has done good/reward.
It's a system used through many disciplines with success.

The e-collar/stim/feeding thing is separate issue to ^^^ that and is too convoluted to go into. I'm saying it's something you CAN do.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

I still do not agree at all with using the hand as a tool of punishment as well as pleasure.

........

The most vital tools, in the box of the trainer, are his voice, and his hands. It's been that way for centuries, and will remain so.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

Just wondering when things like e-collars and choke chains are banned (like they are already in some countries) what you'll use?!

That's easily answered, we'll go back to basics. The basics being our hands, our voices, and our relationship with the dog.

I understand that there are those on here who have serious issues with my argument, but I know of many successful and professional trainers, and don't know of one who relies upon gadgets.

Alec.

 

[EAST KENT]

That's easily answered, we'll go back to basics. The basics being our hands, our voices, and our relationship with the dog.

I understand that there are those on here who have serious issues with my argument, but I know of many successful and professional trainers, and don't know of one who relies upon gadgets.

Alec.

Do you know I never even thought of giving the bitch a biscuit

 

[Nikki J]

Er, no, it's a tug, a toy, not a cosh. Why would I praise my dog by giving it a cosh?! I just touch him on the flank with him when we are turning a corner to remind him to get his ass around quickly, then, yep, pressure off, play with it.

Possibly straying off topic, but I understood the reason that GSD were bred into other breeds to create these types of dog was to create 'the best of both' and create a more trainable, biddable dog for work, border patrol etc, if the end result isn't motivated by the two of the main motivators used to train working dogs (even the rufftiest tufftiest police dogs are trained with a ball), then what was the point? Looks?

By "cosh" I meant shaped like a cosh, not used like one - sometimes the written word over the internet is not the best way of communication, is it! I get what you're saying now, a TOUCH on the flank with the bite roll to get the dog to do a tighter turn - a bit like squeezing a horse with your right leg to get him to turn left, the horse moves away from the pressure. Sounds good to me, as you long as you do no harder than a touch or tap

When you refer to GSD being bred into "other breeds", I am assuming you are referring to the Czech Wolfdog. I am not sure whether Saarloos created the Saarloos Wolfdog by mixing wolf with GSD, and certainly Utonagans and Northern Inuits (which were originally the one breed - I was very good friends to the original creator who lived in Notts and from whom I purchased my old wolf cross Hal) - were not predominantly GSD, despite what you may have heard. The very, very original "starter" mix was indeed GSD with wolf (despite again what you will have been told, having known the original breeder, I am fully aware of the facts), but this lady (who was a GSD breeder before she got involved with her wolf cross idea in the early 80's) found that the wolf/GSD mix was far too forward going, too assertive, and so experimented with wolf/Alaskan Malamute mix. This she found to be a lot better, but as any with a Mal knows they can be extremely stubborn, are prone to running and running and never coming back and they have a tendency to be same-sex aggressive - in other words the males can be overtly aggressive towards other males, and the females to other females. So, she then tried a third mix of Siberian Husky and found wolf x mal x husky the best combination, and that is what all utes and northern inuits are based on - mal x husky but some good old original wolf genes in there as well, along with a trace of the GSD experimentation.

Sorry, I have strayed off the point. The Czech Wolfdog I think is probably the breed to which you refer - the CWD is a cross between Carpathian wolf and GSD, to create as you rightly say a border patrol guard dog. You have a dog with the assertiveness and guardiness of a GSD, highly intelligent, bold and brave who would be totally loyal to his handler - apart from the highly intelligent bit, I would not describe a wolf as loyal, bold or brave, except in the defence of it's young and pack resources. But by mixing wolf with a dog who excels in boldness, intelligence AND loyalty coupled with extreme assertiveness (wolves are not assertive), a perfect dog for border patrolling etc. was created. They are magnificent creatures, and for a few weeks we fostered a wolf x CWD (mother = pure wolf, father = CWD) youngster we named Bruce! We had him from 9 weeks until he was about 5 or 6 months I think, and he used to sleep in our bedroom and adored our utonagan Tai. He was an absolute character. Anyway, I digress yet again.

So to answer your final point - wolves and wolf crosses are the most playful of animals - Bruce, Hal, his son Ben - they ADORE playing, being the highly intelligent animals that they are. It is ritualised hunting of course, the ball being the prey. But can you tap a wolf on the flank with your bite roll to make him turn a corner tighter? Yes of course you can, he would respond immediately, knowing exactly what you meant him to do. Could you whack him on the flank with your bite roll hard to try and "punish" him into turning? Well, you could - but you would regret it!!

 

[Nikki J]

By all means, and I apologise for being otherwise occupied.

The canine mind is actually a relatively simple engine. It relies upon pleasure and pain. That's not "necessarily" physical pain, but a sense of discomfort or disquiet. The trained dog is an extension of it's handler, and is a willing and welcome servant.

How do we achieve the happy state of discipline? That's simple, we either buy an electrical aid, and carefully follow the instructions, OR, we learn how to interact with a dog, we learn how to have the dog listen, how to make eye contact, and how to teach the dog to accept our instructions and our demands. The dog trainer uses one system, and those who aren't dog trainers, but think that they are, use the other. Work it out for yourself, which is which.

Alec.

No probs - nice to hear from you now! I disagree entirely about the canine mind being relatively simple - I think that is being extremely anthropomorphic and very condescending!! It is also forgetting wherein the dog's origins lie, and who his ancestors are. Having lived with a wolf, and having lived with dogs, and having lived with a mix of both, I can categorically say that there is nothing "relatively simple" about the canis lupus genus!! I will accept largely your statement that the well-trained dog should be a willing servant - I am an old-fashioned girl who believes in "pack theory" and that the rules of the game are that we invite our tame "wolf" to live with us, in our house, as a trusted and valued member of our pack, BUT ... Two Legs Rules OK! In return for us feeding them, nurturing them, keeping them sheltered from the elements, they must be obedient to us and accept our house rules, which will vary from pack to pack, or rather I should say household to household. For instance, in our house, dogs are not fed at table, or allowed to beg at table, but they are allowed to lie down quietly under the table whilst we eat. They are allowed on the "doggie sofa", but only if we don't want to sit there and they must get down the instant we say. They are not allowed on any other furniture. They are allowed freedom of the house and they sleep in their own bedroom next door to our's in an empty room on the floor. They know their place, which is at the bottom of the heap.

Right, to move onto the e collar. Do you honestly think that I am so stupid and so inhumane that I would "just buy an electrical aid" (misnomer, btw!) and not bother to spend the hundreds and hundreds of hours, hundreds of pounds in money, frozen my boobs off walking across miles of frozen wastes or trudging through deep mud, sought help, bought books, researched the internet, plumbed the depths of my 40+ years experience of living with dogs to try and find a way to stop my beautiful Ben from refusing to recall reliably? He is a massive dog, weighing in at 45 kilos, he was wilful, aggressive if challenged, spoiled, disobedient and frankly he should have been put down most likely when we rescued him a couple of years ago. Coincidentally, he turned out to be the grandson of our wolf cross Hal, so once I knew that, I knew we had hope, there was a chance. In the past 2 years, we patiently sorted out every single problem through patient, gentle but firm handling. You mention eye contact - that is and can be a problem with wolf crosses, and it was with Ben, but gradually he learned to trust us, that when he took him by the collar it did not mean he was being dragged away to get a beating or being chained up on concrete for 3 years with no shelter, as he endured. He learned that when he looked at him and spoke to him and maintained eye contact, he did not need to woo aggressively at us. My husband was bitten by him when he had peed in the conservatory, and he just took him by the collar to take him out into the garden. He turned on the hand that fed him through sheer fear. But we stuck with him when many would have had him destroyed, my husband included!

But we failed in one thing - we failed to overcome his genetic make up which consists mainly of Alaskan Malamute, with a bit of Siberian Husky and some wolf from several generations ago - and we could not let him off the lead except in an enclosure where we knew he could not escape from, which meant virtually nowhere because he can jump, climb and dig. So - we were presented with 2 alternatives. To never let him off the lead - I would not condemn him to such a life - or pay thousands of pounds on an expensive rig on wheels so that we could work him in harness. Out of the question. So we consulted various dog trainers/behaviourists that we knew of, and none could help. The last one told us as a last resort to try an e collar. My husband is a medical scientist with a degree in human biology as well as zoology, so very capable of researching a subject thoroughly, which he did. He found out the best makes, and contacted the manufacturer Dogtra who put him onto their "e-collar man" in the States - I think his name is Lou Castle, but am not sure, and to cut a very long story short, Ben is now totally 100% reliable to let off the lead.

I will post some pictures when I get back from walking them so you can see for yourself how traumatised and unhappy he is living with us cruel people who cannot be bothered to interact with their dog properly, or maintain eye contact, or spend time training their dog with kind methods like the ones you use - physical violence, in other words

 

[Nikki J]

Honestly? Correct any dog, and then administer pleasure, and you will teach the dog to ignore the correction.

Unless I've misunderstood you, I'm staggered at your quote.

Alec.

Alec, like all anti e-collar people, with the greatest respect, you are talking through your fundament! You have absolutely no idea about how the e collar works, have you. I suggest you do some research before commenting, because you are showing crass ignorance!

I don't want to be rude, you are more than entitled to your opinion, but I cannot let this go!!

If you want me to explain to you why the e collar works, just say the word and I will.

 

[Nikki J]

Just wondering when things like e-collars and choke chains are banned (like they are already in some countries) what you'll use?!

Please don't compare an e collar with a choke chain! Choke chains are cruel and can cause physical damage to a dog like mine who will "pull" naturally - the minute they feel resistance on the lead or the collar, they will pull harder, hence they can end up with horrendous injuries to their necks. You have to let the lead go slack when they start to pull, and control that pulling with your voice, at the most giving a momentary tug, but NEVER pulling.

E collars are banned in Wales. If they were ever banned in England, I would continue using one simply because you cannot tell my boy is wearing one because of his double coat.

 

[Nikki J]

You have misunderstood me. It's pressure and release - correct the unwanted behaviour by applying pressure (tightness on a lead).
The dog executes the behaviour you want - the first positive is the release of pressure (loosen the lead), the second positive is a vocal marker that the dog has done good/reward.
It's a system used through many disciplines with success.

The e-collar/stim/feeding thing is separate issue to ^^^ that and is too convoluted to go into. I'm saying it's something you CAN do.

EXACTLY!! Just like with horses - they move away from the pressure of your leg, the pressure then stops because they have turned in the direction you wanted them to go. You squeeze your left hand on the left rein to turn the head, squeeze your right leg, they turn left, pressure stops, everyone's happy.

With Ben, he is happily running along on his walk. Deer gets up, Ben and Tai in hot pursuit. They are whistled and called "Come". They instantly give up on the chase, and return to their Master. If Ben carries on though longer than Tai, and ignores the first "Come", he will get a light stim. This then causes him to return toute suite, to praise from OH. If he still did not come, he would get a slightly higher stim - obviously all this is taking place within seconds.

Interestingly, despite a breed with an extremely high prey drive, OH has never had to do more than 2 stims EVER. And in the whole time we have had this e collar, he has only had to stim Ben less than 20 times. There is a vibrate setting on it too, and this should always be tried first as an alert to the dog. ~First and foremost, must always come the voice command.

 

[Nikki J]

The most vital tools, in the box of the trainer, are his voice, and his hands. It's been that way for centuries, and will remain so.

Alec.

Now that's the best thing I have ever heard you say! As long as the hands are not used for punishing of course.

 

[Nikki J]

That's easily answered, we'll go back to basics. The basics being our hands, our voices, and our relationship with the dog.

I understand that there are those on here who have serious issues with my argument, but I know of many successful and professional trainers, and don't know of one who relies upon gadgets.

Alec.

Again, I totally agree. Always, always, always go back to basics.

But occasionally, in very severe cases like my Ben, nothing will work. You will have of course to trust and believe me on this one. It was try the e collar, or have the dog put down. We could not rehome him, he was too damaged.

I'm going to post some piccies, then you can see how amazing he is!

 

[Nikki J]

Here's a photograph of Ben taken recently lying in the snow on our garden table - his favourite perch!

I think everyone will agree how cruelly he is treated by us!!

and on the beach in Norfolk:

 

[Dry Rot]

Again, I totally agree. Always, always, always go back to basics.

But occasionally, in very severe cases like my Ben, nothing will work. You will have of course to trust and believe me on this one. It was try the e collar, or have the dog put down. We could not rehome him, he was too damaged.

I'm going to post some piccies, then you can see how amazing he is!

The last time I read so many posts praising e-collars on so little evidence was from a guy selling them!

Here are some of mine trained without an e-collar. There are another twenty dogs out of frame. AND I keep free range poultry!

What's the matter with giving an offender a light tap across the nose with a small switch when they even look at a hen? That's the way it has been done for hundreds of years. If we call it aversion therapy, does that make it sound better?

 

[Nikki J]

The last time I read so many posts praising e-collars on so little evidence was from a guy selling them!

Here are some of mine trained without an e-collar. There are another twenty dogs out of frame. AND I keep free range poultry!

What's the matter with giving an offender a light tap across the nose with a small switch when they even look at a hen? That's the way it has been done for hundreds of years. If we call it aversion therapy, does that make it sound better?

What FABULOUS dogs!! However ... if you think that you could achieve that perfect scene with the same number of northern breed types, then think again!!

I think we are just talking at complete cross purposes here though. I do not use an e collar to train a perfect stay, a sit, a leave, whatever. All these things I have taught even my difficult boys to do without recoursing to an e collar. I am talking about training a reliable recall in order to save the dog's life.

If you tapped Ben on the nose with a switch you would end up minus at least several digits, if not the whole hand. In my opinion, to train ANY dog like that is unacceptable. To train any dog using an e collar is unacceptable also. You do not use an e collar, as I have said before, unless all other resources have been tried professionally and failed. We had a problem - Ben would not recall, so on professional advice we tried the e collar route. Problem solved.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Please don't compare an e collar with a choke chain!

Choke chains are cruel

No, they're not. Sorry, but you are talking out your fundamental in this instance. They're like any tool, like the e-collar, it is what you make it.

They can be used the same as any flat collar. You can clip your lead onto any link instead of fumbling for one D-ring. You can make it as tight or as loose as you want (and still acting as a flat collar) depending on which ring you clip the lead on to. They can be worn in water, in the sea, in the mud, and never fall apart. And sometimes, if you need it, you can clip the lead onto the live ring if you need a bit of power steering.
The same as Dry Rot's slip line pretty much, only made of metal. My dog hears his rattling and goes mad, hardly the mark of a dog who associates it with cruelty.

And I will have to disagree with the CWD thing - if they were such good utility dogs, you'd be tripping over them as police or service dogs. And...we're not. (I think there was a half and half on one of those police K9 shows). Most of the dual purpose police dogs in the UK are German, Dutch, or Belgian Shepherds, bred in house from imported lines or imported from abroad because we are breeding all the traits that make good working dogs, out, to pander to the pet market).

 

[Nikki J]

No, they're not. Sorry, but you are talking out your fundamental in this instance. They're like any tool, like the e-collar, it is what you make it.

They can be used the same as any flat collar. You can clip your lead onto any link instead of fumbling for one D-ring. You can make it as tight or as loose as you want (and still acting as a flat collar) depending on which ring you clip the lead on to. They can be worn in water, in the sea, in the mud, and never fall apart. And sometimes, if you need it, you can clip the lead onto the live ring if you need a bit of power steering.
The same as Dry Rot's slip line pretty much, only made of metal. My dog hears his rattling and goes mad, hardly the mark of a dog who associates it with cruelty.

And I will have to disagree with the CWD thing - if they were such good utility dogs, you'd be tripping over them as police or service dogs. And...we're not. (I think there was a half and half on one of those police K9 shows). Most of the dual purpose police dogs in the UK are German, Dutch, or Belgian Shepherds, bred in house from imported lines or imported from abroad because we are breeding all the traits that make good working dogs, out, to pander to the pet market).

I do not like choke chains. I am fully aware how to use them, and how they work, and I do not like them and for my particular type of dog they are cruel. We will have to agree to disagree!

On the CWD point though, you are wrong for the simple reason that until very recently they were a banned breed, being wolf crosses. The police and service would NEVER have been allowed to use wolf crosses, and sadly it would be a very long time, if ever, before they would be because of the ignorance of most people regarding wolves as granny and children devourers!!

I am a huge fan of GSDs, aside from their hip and roach back problems, but give me a CWD any day. But sadly we will never see them patrolling our football grounds and streets

 

[CorvusCorax]

I do not like choke chains. I am fully aware how to use them, and how they work, and I do not like them and for my particular type of dog they are cruel. We will have to agree to disagree!

On the CWD point though, you are wrong for the simple reason that until very recently they were a banned breed, being wolf crosses. The police and service would NEVER have been allowed to use wolf crosses, and sadly it would be a very long time, if ever, before they would be because of the ignorance of most people regarding wolves as granny and children devourers!!

I am a huge fan of GSDs, aside from their hip and roach back problems, but give me a CWD any day. But sadly we will never see them patrolling our football grounds and streets

You might not like them, but they are no more cruel than an electric collar. They are just a collar made of chain links and can be deployed in exactly the same way as a collar made of webbing, leather etc, they only 'choke' if you connect the lead to the live ring.

My GSD has neither a roach back or hip problems, in fact none of our dogs have ever had hip problems, if you go for good scoring stock and don't splat them off hard surfaces in youth you have a reasonably good chance of not having a dog with hip problems.
All numerically large breeds have heritable health issues.

Re the CWD, we will have to agree to disagree, there was a half CWD in a UK force several years ago as mentioned. There is no deliberate desire to source them, from what I have been told by people on the ground.
How would the wolf side cope with things like busy traffic, large crowds of people etc?
Police dogs also need to be easily trainable, there's a fine line between taking out of their handler when they get corrected and having the strength courage to take on an adversary. It takes a lot of selective breeding to be able to achieve that.

The Czech Wolfdog I think is probably the breed to which you refer - the CWD is a cross between Carpathian wolf and GSD, to create as you rightly say a border patrol guard dog. You have a dog with the assertiveness and guardiness of a GSD, highly intelligent, bold and brave who would be totally loyal to his handler - apart from the highly intelligent bit, I would not describe a wolf as loyal, bold or brave, except in the defence of it's young and pack resources. But by mixing wolf with a dog who excels in boldness, intelligence AND loyalty coupled with extreme assertiveness (wolves are not assertive), a perfect dog for border patrolling etc. was created

- So, never mind what the GSD part was for, what was the wolf bit for, if they are not loyal, bold, brave, or assertive? There are plenty of defensive GSDs out there. The Czechs were already and still do breed GSDs which defend themselves and their handlers pretty well.

But anyway, I'll leave the last word to you, this thread was originally about chickens

 

[willhegofirst]

I haven't read the whole post, but when we first got out eldest spinone she was
eleven months and thought the hens were fair game, we tried having her on a lead with them, in the end my OH let her out with them, when she went for one he threw a hard ball on a rope at her, it hit her on the side, she connected the hen with the ball hitting her and other than one occasion when one panicked right in front of her, she has never touched them since.

 

[Nikki J]

You might not like them, but they are no more cruel than an electric collar. They are just a collar made of chain links and can be deployed in exactly the same way as a collar made of webbing, leather etc, they only 'choke' if you connect the lead to the live ring.

My GSD has neither a roach back or hip problems, in fact none of our dogs have ever had hip problems, if you go for good scoring stock and don't splat them off hard surfaces in youth you have a reasonably good chance of not having a dog with hip problems.
All numerically large breeds have heritable health issues.

Re the CWD, we will have to agree to disagree, there was a half CWD in a UK force several years ago as mentioned. There is no deliberate desire to source them, from what I have been told by people on the ground.
How would the wolf side cope with things like busy traffic, large crowds of people etc?
Police dogs also need to be easily trainable, there's a fine line between taking out of their handler when they get corrected and having the strength courage to take on an adversary. It takes a lot of selective breeding to be able to achieve that.

The Czech Wolfdog I think is probably the breed to which you refer - the CWD is a cross between Carpathian wolf and GSD, to create as you rightly say a border patrol guard dog. You have a dog with the assertiveness and guardiness of a GSD, highly intelligent, bold and brave who would be totally loyal to his handler - apart from the highly intelligent bit, I would not describe a wolf as loyal, bold or brave, except in the defence of it's young and pack resources. But by mixing wolf with a dog who excels in boldness, intelligence AND loyalty coupled with extreme assertiveness (wolves are not assertive), a perfect dog for border patrolling etc. was created

- So, never mind what the GSD part was for, what was the wolf bit for, if they are not loyal, bold, brave, or assertive? There are plenty of defensive GSDs out there. The Czechs were already and still do breed GSDs which defend themselves and their handlers pretty well.

But anyway, I'll leave the last word to you, this thread was originally about chickens

I know!! I keep telling myself this thread is about chickens, but my fingers don't listen!!

Wolves actually are not loyal, bold or assertive, not where man is concerned. Anything on 2 legs to a wolf = danger, and wild wolves will move heaven and earth to avoid man because of the centuries of persecution they have had to endure from man once man ceased being a hunter gathered and settled down in one place, started cutting down the forest for farming. Wolves then ceased to be man's best friend, and became man's enemy, tragically and I believe at the detriment of the farmers, because they would have kept down prey animals wanting to eat man's crops.

But if you can mix wolf genes with dog genes - they are in fact the same genes, but with thousands of years of domestication "wolf" aka domestic dog has lost his fear of man - as in Carpathian wolf crossed with GSD, then you can set out about creating an animal with the intelligence and cunning of the wolf along with the bravery of the wolf when it comes to defending his pack and his cubs combined with the strong shepherding/herding and guarding instinct of the GSD (honed into being a good attack dog). The CWD to my mind is the perfect dog for our police, for prisons, border patrol.

A wolf would not cope at all with crowds, busy streets etc. as already described, but the mix with GSD in the case of the CWD has created a perfect police dog IMO. Maybe one day we will see such a thing, but with wolf crosses having only just been made legal in this country, I think it will take a few years, but it may well come. I really hope so, they are truly stupendous dogs. I have loads of piccies if anyone wants me to post up a couple.

 

[Custard Cream]

Crikey, I hadn't checked back on this thread since after reading the first few posts so am amazed at how interesting it has got!

A little update. The hen in question survived and seems to be doing OK. This is the second time this dog has attacked the hens. The first time the hen didn't survive. Owner suitable upset by it all, said she'd get rid of the dog (this infuriated me...owner was the problem, not the dog as it was only 4 months old at the time) promised to do training, not let it out unsupervised etc etc. Of course this was all rubbish and nothing changed.

The dogs owner rents a house and a block of stables which are fenced off the plot of land we walk through to get to our stables and the chickens are free roaming around the whole area. The dog should be trained, but nothing has been done and it's allowed to run about doing what it likes.

We are moving soon, our chickens will be coming with us....but how long before the dog gets fed up of chickens and goes for lambs?

Ho Hum, thanks for all your input