Dog Breeders - what do you think?

T

Tia

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 January 2004
Messages
26,098
Visit site
Okay so my little floosy Springer is due to have her puppies in a couple of weeks. She lives with my other large dogs in our dogroom which gives access to outdoors at all times - suits me and my dogs perfectly......however with the imminent arrival of a few puppies I am considering bringing her in the kitchen to "pup down". It is very cold outside overnight now and as their dogroom is not heated I don't want any of the puppies to not make it due to minus temperatures.

I don't want Lily in the house for too long as she still has to grow her proper winter coat and if she becomes acclimatised to the heat in the house, this may not grown properly. So I was thinking if I were to keep the pups and Lily in the house for a couple of weeks that this would be enough time for them to grow and become used to the chilly conditions of outdoors.

Am I being silly - would it be better for the pups to be born in the same environment as they will be living in? I'll only be keeping the pups till they are 6 weeks old and all the homes I have secured for the puppies are indoor homes.

I don't "do" breeding dogs - this is not something I am the slightest bit interested in, however we ARE in this situation now so I want to deal with it in the best and most practical way.

The temperatures during the day are around 5 to 12 degrees celsius, however at night this dips to around -5 to -8 at present and their dog room is only marginally warmer than the outside temperature.

Thoughts?
 
Thats cold
crazy.gif


Can you not put up with the bitch being in the house for 4 weeks? She could then go outside at night and come in during the day to feed and 'nurse' and you could wean them from her at 5 weeks. Or the other option would be to have them inside for the two weeks and then have them outside with heat matts (not heat lamps as they cause drafts). Mine are bred for the arctic they have really fluffy 'arcticy' coats and I wouldn't even want them outside now (they're 5 weeks) and its nowhere near as cold over here.

See what other replies you get, thats just my opinion.

When is she due? Are you looking forwards to them?
smile.gif
 
Your bitch will need to be away from the other dogs. She must feel safe and secluded. During whelping you need to be with her for the whole time, so you need to be comfortable as well. Please look at Labrador Forum to see how to cope with whelping/after care. I know she's not a lab, but the principles are the same. The pups will die if you leave them in the cold. It would be small price to pay to keep your bitch in during the winter if need be. Also 6 weeks is too young to rehome pups, seven weeks at least. Bear in mind it's not her fault she is in whelp.
 
I agree it would be better if you could keep them in until they are at least 4 weeks. Heat mats would be a good idea, I would also make them an enclosed bed when they do go outside. When my pups come out of the whelping box they have an inner sleeping box in the kennel which is basically a low box with a lid and just a small opening for them to get in and out of . When they lie in there they will build up heat and that should help keep them warm.
 
'Why worry', when I bought my first pup the breeder was letting them go at 6 weeks, dad thought this was too young but the vet said this was absolutely fine.

I really do think they'd get ill in that sort of cold weather though. And like WW says don't let any other dogs near, she'll get very protective and maybe even agressive, she should have her own area free of noise (if you have kids and visitors) and well away from other dogs/animals that is clean and warm.
 
Virtually the same as Sara although I have never had a problem with draughts with a pig lamp because I make sure there are no draughts anyway. Have to admit I haven't used the mats though.
You also sound to be weaning them very early for a breed that size as they wouldn't normally have started solids before 3/4 weeks so would still be on the bitch at 6 weeks even if it is only part time; here, they should be at least 8/9 weeks to make sure everything is going well for them and they are settled onto a solid diet. You must do things a lot differently over there as if I was looking for a puppy, I would be appalled if they were weaned and ready at 6 weeks unless there had been a problem with the bitch's milk supply; they simply aren't ready to leave the litter by then.
However, if I was you, I would probably whelp and keep them indoors for at least 3/4 weeks which should correspond to them going onto solids, which can be a messy time! Then I would make them a decent sized pen which can be segregated from the other dogs as the bitch would be very unhappy otherwise and have their bed underneath a pig lamp about 3 foot high which gives off enough to take the edge off the air but they won't be too hot either. The bed needs to have solid sides to stop draughts; it helps if there is a part side cut out so the pups can crawl in and out with no danger of hurting themselves which might happen if they had to climb over the sides. To start with, the bitch will still be with them so it doesn't need to be too warm, they'll snuggle up to her but later, one of the nicest things to see with a litter is them all flat out asleep in various places; you'll soon see which ones like the heat or not. I would keep the lamp on day and night to keep it at an even temprature as they are meant to be home dogs.
Good luck.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You must do things a lot differently over there as if I was looking for a puppy, I would be appalled if they were weaned and ready at 6 weeks

[/ QUOTE ]

Things are no different "over here". I'm friends with several BT breeders and one Chesapeake Bay breeder, and all let pups go at 8-10 weeks. Many US states (I don't know about Canada) have "puppy lemon" laws which strictly forbid the sale of pups younger than eight weeks.

I found the website of a twenty-year working Border Collie breeder, which might be of some help...

Puppy info
 
I like the idea of 'puppy lemon' laws!

I'm not a softee by any stretch of the imagination but for breeders to let pups go before 8/9 weeks, I always feel (unless something has happened to the bitch and they have been hand reared or similar) they are in it mostly for the money; they don't seem to have much respect for the animals themselves and how they are raised which is a great shame and not a good advert for other caring breeders. I know that is a generalisation and can see that Tia is probably letting the pups go early so they can get into their new warm homes asap which isn't a bad idea in some ways.
 
A few years ago, I think it was when one of the vet programmes were running, the idea of letting puppies go at 6 weeks was being promoted. The idea being they can become better socialised at that age. At the time I found people wanted to take their puppies at 6 weeks but I was adamant they didn't have them before 8 weeks, lost one or two prospective owners but didn't care. I don't know if its still the case but the Guide Dogs for the Blind were one of the associations advocating 6 weeks as being the ideal time.
 
Tia, can you give her an outdoor shed or stable, with a heatlamp (and of course no draughts)? Our Springer whelped in the house, and stayed in until their eyes were open, then it was straight out into the garage (not as cold as where you are though). We used a heatlamp as apart from feeding them, she was a disinterested Mum and kept moving away from them.

Regards weaning, ours went at 8 weeks, but all the ones we're ever bought have been 5-6 weeks, and have been perfectly happy. I would let a puppy go at 6 weeks providing it was 100% fit and healthy, and that it was going to a sensible home with other dogs. Wouldn't let one go to be an only dog at that age.

Hope it goes ok, have to say it put me off puppies for life and the garage floor will never be the same again!
 
QR -

Thanks everyone. I don't mind the pups being in the house right up to the day they leave; that's not an issue for me as they are all (bar one) going to be indoor dogs, but I can't keep the bitch indoors for 6 weeks as the pups are due 3rd December (unless the dog visited a couple of days earlier than the day I took him to the pound - either way, can't be too far out on that date) so by the time they leave this will be January and temperatures outside will be about -20 to -30 by then so the bitch has to have grown her proper winter coat to deal with these temperatures.

The pups will be going at 6 weeks unless their is an issue with their health. I have always bought my collies/springers at 6 weeks and this is the age I am happy for them to leave, mainly because of my bitch and the growth of her winter coat. All of my dogs have been born outside, as was this bitch; however I know that the temperatures in England aren't comparable to over here, which is why I am going to have them indoors for at least most of the time and if too cold then until they go to their new homes.

I could have her whelp down in a barn or stables but I'd far rather have her indoors where I can keep a close eye on her around whelping time and the puppies afterwards. The other dogs don't live in the house so not a problem with them bothering her.

Yeah I'm looking forward to them coming, how can you not look forward to having puppies around - but I don't plan on doing it again, not that I planned on it this time.
smile.gif
 
It wasn't that there are draughts, I was told they actually cause them and I can fully believe that as they are hung. Personally I prefer the idea of a heat matt.
 
You must keep the pups warm for the first 4 weeks at least - they will die in temperatures that cold otherwise - and personally I would keep them indoors until they are ready to go ( 7 weeks is the ideal ) - they will need to be with 'mum' untill 4 weeks then she should have access to them frequently to allow some suckling -but more importantly to teach them social behaviour - this stage is crucial in a young pups life.
 
But she also must be allowed to get away from them at 4 weeks as its painful for them to suck if she has little milk and it may upset her - it upsets Skye.
 
QR -

Thank you so much everyone.

I am going to buy a large pen for the pups so that they can live indoors until they leave. Lily will have to keep going outside on and off as this will help with her coat if she is still going out into those temperatures for periods through the day.

I appreciate what the people who are asking why Lily can't just spend this winter in the house - unfortunately that can't happen as she is a farm dog and is out on the farm all day long, so she can't live in -20 temperatures for most of the day to then be brought into a house with a constant temperature of +23; it would totally mess her up and if she doesn't grow this coat then she wouldn't be able to go outside for long, and she is a dog who couldn't possibly be cooped up in a house for lengthy periods when she is used to running miles every day.

Allowing the pups to leave at 6 weeks is the ideal, however if I genuinely feel they aren't ready then they can stay for the extra time.

We brought Lily in the house for an hour last night and she didn't like it at all
frown.gif
. She was too hot and sat panting and getting upset until I let her back outside into the cold, so looks like I may have to change the settings on the thermostat and we'll have to live in cooler conditions to what we are used to for a little while.

I have a large dog-run outside which the puppies can go out and play for short periods once they are a little older.

Husband is building a whelping box right now so hopefully we are all set for their arrival. Quite exciting but tinged with a bit of "oh goodness what have we let ourselves in for!"
crazy.gif


As soon as June comes along, Lily will be down to the vets pretty sharpish! No more pups for us thanks.
cool.gif
 
A bitch will shed most of her coat around her nipples to be able to feed the pups. Also it is not uncommon for the bitch to shed alot of hair after the birth. Same as humans, the hormone changes cause hair growth patterns to alter.

Would it be possible to put the bitch in a nice little outdoor rug when she needs to go back out?
 
She has already shed all her coat around her teats; her tail, which is usually long and flowing is very short-haired now and sparse; her beautiful long feathery bits on her back legs have already been shed and compared to what she looked like, she looks very rat-tailed at the moment. She normally has a glorious, long, flowing coat all over, but not now she doesn't.

A little down coat could be an option for her - thank you for the suggestion.
smile.gif
 
Newborn pups are unable to control their own body temperature thus should be kept in warm conditions. Chilling is one of the leading causes of death among neonate puppies. Pups begin to develop the shivering reflex and the ability to control their body temperature around 2 weeks of age around the time they get their eyes open. Pups can survive on their own at 6 weeks but giving them an additional 2 to 4 weeks with their mom and litter helps their social development and temperment. Mom and their siblings teach them about things such as pack order and bite inhibition that make it easier when they transition to a human "pack". I usually waited until 12 weeks to send my pups to their new homes unless they had an obvious conformation flaw as I was trying to evaluate show pups. Tia, I think you will find that mom will "blow" coat after the pups are born and even after they are weaned so a dog jacket may be a must in your climate. Also she needs to be on a top quality food and the amount gradually increased as the pregnancy continues. I would feed my bitches their normal ration for the 1st 3 weeks of gestation, increase by 1/2 the 2nd 3 weeks. The last 3 weeks they were switched to a high protein puppy food and stayed on that until I began weaning the pups. All this is taking into account the bitch's condition, of course.
 
There is a dog near us that has what I can only describe as a New Zealand for dogs! Wax type outer layer, and padded inner layer - it wear is when it is really cold / snowing/ raining. Haven't seen it in its coat this year yet - bet that changes tonight, but if I see them I will ask where she got it / make. Most folk I know use their garages for dogs in winter, if they live outside in the summer - can't think of any that have had pups tho, so not sure what they do - I can't see Canadians as a breed going soppy and letting them run around inside their houses if they are normally outdoorsy dogs - will see if anyone has been in that situation. I can see why it would be hard for her if she doesn't grow an outdoor coat tho - it's bad enough for humans going hot to cold over here!!!!
 
No I know. This was exactly what has been on my mind too - I hardly know anyone who has an inside dog and none of them would let their farm dogs in the house regardless of whether they were having pups or not
crazy.gif
.

And you know Lily, she never has much of a coat at the best of times; just that long luxurious flowing hair but not much of a thick undercoat. I think a little coat might be on Lily's Christmas list.
grin.gif
 
Not answering the question at all but isn't 6 weeks a bit young for the pups to be leaving their mum? Isn't it usually 8 weeks at least?
 
The earliest I've let pups go is 7 weeks and I've kept some till 12 though that was a complete pain. You'll probably be able to judge closer to the time depending upon how independent from mum they are and she from them, also how well they are eating.
Echo what others have said about keeing pups warm - to the point of paranoi tbh, I also have a big heatlamp. Pity you are so far away, so much stuff could be borrowed.
Bitch will unfortunately shed a lot of coat whelping time - so coat will be a good idea.
One other thing to mention to oh is to ensure he puts in a pigrail, we always do maiden bitches can be so clumsy.....

If you get the chace try and get a copy of the book of the bitch.... absolute instruction manual on whelping.
This is all getting exciting though rather you than me
tongue.gif
 
I don't know to be honest as I've only ever bought puppies from working stock lines and always had them at 6 weeks old.

As I previously said, I'll see how the pups are and how the mother deals with it. If the pups are healthy then they can leave at 6 weeks; they will be far better in a home with their new owners than left here for an extra 2 weeks in a stable.

Everything is obviously theoretical - I certainly have no idea how many pups there will be, let alone how they will fare.
 
Yes we have a pigrail in place and Lily is now in the house overnight (as of last night) and is sleeping at the bottom of the stairs which lead up to my bedroom so I should be able to hear her if she starts to go into the labour in the middle of the night.

Our house is warm so they will be fine and although it is -10 today, the forecast says the temperatures are supposed to go back up to +10 in a couple of days. Planning to go out and buy little Lily a nice snuggly coat though as winter will be very tough on her if I don't.

Thank you for the kind offer; it's very much appreciated that the thought crossed your mind, even though I am so far away and can't take you up on it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top