Dog fighting

I have friends of Pakistani origin, where in their home countries both cock and dog fighting happen regularly. Do I think its right, or ok, or acceptable - no. Do they participate when visiting home, certainly not that Im aware of! But they have spoken to me at length about it and the general consensus is vastly different than if you asked 99.9% of my white british friends.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/family-protection-dogs.768696/page-3#jfLfEZoOQO83mzsX.99


Levrier, I hope I can provide the alternative view you are seeking and also defend Pakistanis, who I think are getting a bad rap on this thread.

I worked closely with a number of cultured and well educated Pakistanis over the years.

Dog fighting was never a subject that came up in the conversation - why would it?

I am sure that the gentle and polite men that I knew well would be horrified to be associated with such atrocities.

Of course it may be prevalent in the lower echelons of society just as it is here.

I could not agree more SD - I have also worked with many people of Pakistani origin, who have been at all levels of the organisations where I have worked, and I am sure they would find dog fighting as abhorrent as everyone (naturally) has done on this thread

Perhaps Kimberleigh's friends would be able to provide another view, but in all honesty I cannot see how...
 
I could not agree more SD - I have also worked with many people of Pakistani origin, who have been at all levels of the organisations where I have worked, and I am sure they would find dog fighting as abhorrent as everyone (naturally) has done on this thread

Perhaps Kimberleigh's friends would be able to provide another view, but in all honesty I cannot see how...

The people I refer to were born, raised, educated and qualified in Pakistan and most of them planned to return home. We discussed many aspects of life in Pakistan but never dog fighting.
 
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I think dog fighting is now illegal in Mexico, and is illegal in many Latin American countries (such as Honduras). But that doesn't mean it doesn't still happen, sadly. I do think, in Latin America, it would be very interesting to see some statistics on where exactly the dog fights happen. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was often a connection with gang violence, where there is obviously an extreme macho culture. Don't forget countries like Mexico, Honduras and El Salvador have been struggling with horrendous gang violence for many years - in places where human life is cheap, it is sadly little surprise that animals can be treated horrendously too.
 
Well it appears that we don’t have anyone on the AAD part of the forum who comes from other cultures who might be able to provide an alternative view as Kimberleigh suggested? Personally I am not surprised about that I have to say

Its a shame that there isnt anyone who could provide some insight into what the cultural differences are - I could try to parrot what I remember my friends telling me but I fear it wouldn't be fully correct as my memory is shocking at the moment (baby brain!) I wouldnt want to get that sort of info wrong!
 
I have friends of Pakistani origin, where in their home countries both cock and dog fighting happen regularly. Do I think its right, or ok, or acceptable - no. Do they participate when visiting home, certainly not that Im aware of! But they have spoken to me at length about it and the general consensus is vastly different than if you asked 99.9% of my white british friends.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/family-protection-dogs.768696/page-3#jfLfEZoOQO83mzsX.99


Levrier, I hope I can provide the alternative view you are seeking and also defend Pakistanis, who I think are getting a bad rap on this thread.

I worked closely with a number of cultured and well educated Pakistanis over the years.

Dog fighting was never a subject that came up in the conversation - why would it?

I am sure that the gentle and polite men that I knew well would be horrified to be associated with such atrocities.

Of course it may be prevalent in the lower echelons of society just as it is here.

I dont think Pakistanis are getting a bad rep at all - not one person has commented and said "oh yeah its definitely those type of people who do it"!

My friends are also gentle and polite men; I've never been treated so well as I am by them and their families!
 
I think dog fighting is now illegal in Mexico, and is illegal in many Latin American countries .

It is illegal here too but we don't seem to be able to eradicate it. It appears to be a popular pastime of our own home grown low life and it is going on right under our noses without us being aware.

We need to get our own house in order.

I don't want to imagine the horror felt by someone whose pet is stolen when there is the very real possibility it could be used as bait.

Never advertise a dog or kittens free to a good home.

Kimberleigh, you clearly have greater insight and knowledge of this activity than I, perhaps you could advise what you think would be a solution to the problem of dog fighting in the UK..
 
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Making it illegal in Latin America I’m sure is irrelevant !
But there is unlikely to be progress until things are made illegal. That process can change what's considered socially acceptable. In the UK and Ireland dog fighting is seen as abhorrent by the vast majority. This wasn't always the case. Animal welfare laws have led to big changes.

I do think that in countries where people don't have much in the way of human rights it's inevitable and expected that animal welfare wouldn't be something that is of much interest.

I have noticed that unlike countries with similar lack of human rights, China seems to be a country where animals are treated with almost gratuitous cruelty.

During the cultural revolution having pets began to be considered to be as a western habbit that was un-chinese.
Consequently dismissal of animals as being due welfare considerations was officially encouraged.

The rise in pet ownership among the new middle class is expected to challenge the praviling viewpoint.
 
Making it illegal in Latin America I’m sure is irrelevant !
Why do you think it's irrelevant? I mentioned Latin American countries because other people had mentioned them as places where dog fighting takes place. Or do you mean it's irrelevant because people still do it? Well yes, I'm sure dog fighting still happens even in places where it has been banned. But at least a change in the law is a step in the right direction. Combatting dog fighting in countries where there are massive issues with gang violence and drug trafficking (I'm thinking particularly of central American countries like Honduras and El Salvador, as well as Mexico) is hardly going to be a walk in the park, especially when you consider that, according to some posters on this thread, it is still happening in the UK and Ireland, where we supposedly think ourselves above such things.
 
The people I refer to were born, raised, educated and qualified in Pakistan and most of them planned to return home. We discussed many aspects of life in Pakistan but never dog fighting.

The reason I mentioned this was to highlight that they were recently arrived from their country of birth and therefore au fait with the traditions and customs of Pakistan. I am assuming, perhaps wrongly, more so than someone of Pakistani origin born in the UK.

Kimberleigh said of her friends "But they have spoken to me at length about it and the general consensus is vastly different than if you asked 99.9% of my white british friends.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/dog-fighting.768845/page-2#WoRwhO81M2PqgCAx.99

From my experience I do not think this is representative of Pakistanis in general but probably just to a certain element of society.

(I dont think Pakistanis are getting a bad rep at all - not one person has commented and said "oh yeah its definitely those type of people who do it"!
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/dog-fighting.768845/page-2#EULoP2xqt1qx8Q8w.99)

Could someone remind me who brought Pakistanis into this discussion in the first place?

Regardless of culture, ethnicity, country of birth or whatever, it is an abominable crime.

Until this discussion started I had largely remained in blissful ignorance and had certainly never felt the need or inclination to discuss it at length with anyone.

It is the practise of dog fighting in this country which most concerns me.
 
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Maybe if we had successfully banned pitbulls in the UK dog fighting would be on the way out ...not that it happened but it would have gone a long way to ending the practice .
 
As a follow up point, as Ireland has became wealthier and more urbanised, concern for animal welfare has increased and new laws have been introduced. Judges are still ridiculously lenient in these cases compared to the UK but things are improving.

I have farming relations who's children are like typical suburbanites in their attitudes to their pets.

I think in most countries neglect/ mistreatment is often due to ignorance. There has been a very successful program in equine care with settled traveller children in Dublin inner city areas ,which against all official expectations has massively increased horse welfare.
 
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The reason I mentioned this was to highlight that they were recently arrived from their country of birth and therefore au fait with the traditions and customs of Pakistan. I am assuming, perhaps wrongly, more so than someone of Pakistani origin born in the UK.

Kimberleigh said of her friends "But they have spoken to me at length about it and the general consensus is vastly different than if you asked 99.9% of my white british friends.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/dog-fighting.768845/page-2#WoRwhO81M2PqgCAx.99

From my experience I do not think this is representative of Pakistanis in general but probably just to a certain element of society.

(I dont think Pakistanis are getting a bad rep at all - not one person has commented and said "oh yeah its definitely those type of people who do it"!
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/dog-fighting.768845/page-2#EULoP2xqt1qx8Q8w.99)

Could someone remind me who brought Pakistanis into this discussion in the first place?

Regardless of culture, ethnicity, country of birth or whatever, it is an abominable crime.

Until this discussion started I had largely remained in blissful ignorance and had certainly never felt the need or inclination to discuss it at length with anyone.

It is the practise of dog fighting in this country which most concerns me.
I was ignorant of it too. I'm obviously a bit naive but I thought puppy mills were our biggest problem (not that they aren't a massive problem).
 
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It is illegal here too but we don't seem to be able to eradicate it. It appears to be a popular pastime of our own home grown low life and it is going on right under our noses without us being aware.

We need to get our own house in order.

I don't want to imagine the horror felt by someone whose pet is stolen when there is the very real possibility it could be used as bait.

Never advertise a dog or kittens free to a good home.

Kimberleigh, you clearly have greater insight and knowledge of this activity than I, perhaps you could advise what you think would be a solution to the problem of dog fighting in the UK..

I dont think there is a solution, in the same way that there isn't a solution to badger baiting or foxing or coursing...or any other illegal activity involving animals that I may have missed out!! Making something illegal does not prevent it happening.

The "insight and knowledge" that you so accusingly suggest I have is nothing to do with the UK in any case, and so is irrelevant to your question! It is illegal in Pakistan as far as Im aware, but happens regularly anyway in public without recrimination...so if it happens in public in places where it is illegal, what chance is there of eradicating it in a country whereit is very much an underground issue??
 
There is something abhorrent in human nature that takes pleasure in violence, whether it's between ourselves, or watching it manifest in other animals tearing each other apart. There are camel fights, and horse fights too, in Afghanistan, as well as other horrors in North and South America, along with well-organised dog and cock fighting rings. We have dog fights here (in Ireland), and most likely cock fighting, although the police are pretty good at shutting these down, the trade in fighting dogs is very active, particularly in Northern Ireland. I have had conversations with men involved, and they see nothing wrong in it, call it "natural", and it is highly profitable. They make my skin crawl, but the attitudes are not uncommon.

You could place this alongside the arguments used to defend hunting and shooting....

Absolutely agree. How many people on here that are horrified by the prospect of cock fighting or dog fighting were happily justifying hunting pre-ban? How is something ripping another animal apart for our pleasure ever ok?
 
Not an accusation, Kimberleigh. Merely an observation based on your previous posts.

If that were indeed the case I'd expect wording to be different - or perhaps I'm being cynical because if I wrote it in the terms you use I'd be having a dig! If that's the case then I do apologise for making assumptions!

I could ask my friends for their input so I could put it across, but it is always awkward passing on second hand information - plus it's always the messenger who gets shot and I dont really want to be seen as the person who 'makes a defence' for something that is, imo, unable to be defended
 
Maybe if we had successfully banned pitbulls in the UK dog fighting would be on the way out ...not that it happened but it would have gone a long way to ending the practice .
Absolutely agree. How many people on here that are horrified by the prospect of cock fighting or dog fighting were happily justifying hunting pre-ban? How is something ripping another animal apart for our pleasure ever ok?
I think a lot of what we consider moral or ethical is based on the social norms of our own culture. In a society where fox hunting is a tradition a lot of people don't see it as wrong. Perhaps it's similar in countries where cock fighting/ dog fighting is a tradition.

Of course there is the argument that foxes are wild animals and dogs and foul aren't so perhaps we can empathise easier with them.

A more extreme example is countries where honour crimes are legal. The idea is abhorrent to us, but some people in some countries don't feel the same. Right and wrong, in some respects is cultural dependent rather than universal.
 
I think a lot of what we consider moral or ethical is based on the social norms of our own culture. In a society where fox hunting is a tradition a lot of people don't see it as wrong. Perhaps it's similar in countries where cock fighting/ dog fighting is a tradition.

Of course there is the argument that foxes are wild animals and dogs and foul aren't so perhaps we can empathise easier with them.

A more extreme example is countries where honour crimes are legal. The idea is abhorrent to us, but some people in some countries don't feel the same. Right and wrong, in some respects is culture dependent rather than universal.

This is pretty much exactly what I was trying to get across, but you've explained it a lot better than I've been able to!

That cultural differences can make people view things in entirely different lights - there are hundreds of articles on Google, generated from a search for 'in which countries is dog fighting illegal?', with direct quotes from people living in countries where dog fighting is "acceptable" and to read them makes you realise just how different things are in different places
 
If that were indeed the case I'd expect wording to be different - or perhaps I'm being cynical because if I wrote it in the terms you use I'd be having a dig! If that's the case then I do apologise for making assumptions!

I could ask my friends for their input so I could put it across, but it is always awkward passing on second hand information - plus it's always the messenger who gets shot and I dont really want to be seen as the person who 'makes a defence' for something that is, imo, unable to be defended

I was surprised that you thought SD was trying to have a dig at you, but a google search of the words "Kimberleigh" and "dog fighting" proved interesting.

I can see that we clearly have a case of mistaken identity here.
 
There is purportedly a dog fight every day in this country.

Could someone explain to me what the cultural differences are in the UK as I seem to be missing the point.

Are there any pointers to identify those who partake in this activity?

Should we be looking at the preferred breed and temperament of dog favoured by the those engaging in this activity?
 
Most people on dog fighting documentaries are Asian.

Is that the case in the UK?

The accused in Lincolnshire/Wales did not have Asian names, far from it. Nor the dog breeder from Wigan who was convicted and "thought to be a big player" in UK dog fighting.
 
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Im not sure there is a "type" of person to look out for, who would be more likely to engage in illegal activities, and certainly not be identifiable due to type/temperament of their dogs.

BSL is already rife, and plenty of bullbreed owners spend every walk with other people avoiding them because of their "dangerous" dogs.

My big dogs may not like strangers, but are 100% with dogs!

So by suggesting that someone would be more likely to be a dog fighter because they have a muscle bound, powerful dog on a lead that may be reactive or intolerant to other dogs, would be akin to saying watch out for single men who smile at or initiate chat with your kids in case they are a paedophile.

But I guess that is the reality of the publics perception - we are probably all guilty of seeing a cute dog and thinking aww isnt that sweet, or one which is barking and thinking oh thats a bad mannered dog...when in reality that fluffball may be a snappy little sod and the barker may be a fearful rescue.

Assumptions again are a creator of problems.

I suppose the only real answer would be to be vigilant but that's common sense in vast majority of cases anyway I would like to believe
 
In fact I said "Are there any pointers to identify those who partake in this activity?"

I didn't say "type" of person but you are right it is a certain type. A person who participates in dog fighting is very different from the rest of us.

I would definitely try to avoid a "muscle bound, powerful dog on a lead that may be reactive or intolerant to other dogs". As it is the molossers I meet are of sound temperament, as are their owners.

I do think that there are preferred breeds for dog fighting. I would struggle to believe otherwise.

Incidentally, I am not prejudicial. I have personally owned a bull breed, an EBTx (she died earlier this year) and my sister had a Staffy. Though not large, they were both strong, powerful dogs. There were no aggression issues with either of them, quite the opposite - they were friendly with both people and other dogs, and they would have been totally unsuitable for fighting.

Perhaps someone else could enlighten me as to the cultural differences in the UK that lead to dog fighting because it is beyond me.
 
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Is that the case in the UK?

The accused in Lincolnshire/Wales did not have Asian names, far from it. Nor the dog breeder from Wigan who was convicted and "thought to be a big player" in UK dog fighting.
That was from a UK documentary. It seemed to be rife in the Asian population over here, the documentary was filmed in Birmingham.
 
That was from a UK documentary. It seemed to be rife in the Asian population over here, the documentary was filmed in Birmingham.

Thank you for the information, Clodagh. It made my heart sink.

If I had seen the programme it would have upset and infuriated me. I have found the documentary online but don't know if I have the stomach for it.

I feel naive and stupid.

I obviously live a sheltered life and my only experience has been with professional people that I worked alongside. I was frequently invited to their homes for hospitality and met their families. People of integrity.

I thought it was bad enough that elements of the indigenous* population had a propensity for this cruel blood "sport" but this takes the problem to a whole new level.

It is a hopeless situation. If they can't be stopped from grooming and assaulting young vulnerable girls then there is absolutely no hope for the dogs. (I hope this comment does not offend any members of the forum.)


*I use this term loosely because I had genetic testing and found I am British, Irish, Scandinavian, French, German and "broadly Northwestern European" - bit of a mongrel really :)
 
The documentary I referenced was not filmed in Brum and was aired over ten years ago.

Just found that one too, from 2007. At the moment I can't bring myself to watch either of them.

I am obviously so out of touch with what really goes in the world that I feel I ought to at some point.
 
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