Dog programme BBC 1

[severnmiles]

Anyone watch?

Ridgebacks being put down because they don't have the ridge (which is Spine Bifida - where the spinal cord protudes the spine).

Cavvy's with brains too big for the skulls causing fits.

Pugs with crooked spines to create the preferred double curl in the tail.

Kennel club appeared very crooked

 

[severnmiles]

Ooops, I see Gina B beat me to it!!

 

[echodomino]

Am watching now on iPlayer. TBH they didn't actually say the ridge on a Ridgeback IS spina bifida they said it COULD be a sign of.

I still stick with what I've said all along, you can't soley blame the KC the responsibility lies with the breeder too. This makes me very cross too because they're only showing the bad side, the one side that makes us dog breeders suffer an ever increasing bad press. There are a lot of us out there who put the thought, care and consideration into breeding our dogs, carrying out health tests and breeding from well put together, healthy dogs with superb temperments.

I'll stand off my soapbox now

 

[CAYLA]

The examples shown where disgusting....the kennel club made themselves look like t*ssers..it was cringe worthy the way those 2 fat old fellas came across.

The woman showing and studding out the cavi with a diagnosed neurological problem.....DISGUSTING

everyone who can prove that their puppy is the off spring of that dog should beable to re-coup any vets bills in regard to any hereditary problem connected.

All the flat faced breeds struggling with breathing problems, I really don't understand why anyone would want to buy and encourage the breeding of such dogs, the last thing I would want is the watch my dog frequently struggling heaving and panting for breath.

The kennel club do no where near enough to help improve and regulate breeding....they are a farse...it's all about the money.

 

[severnmiles]

You're right, many breeders do take alot of care.

One thing that's always confused me is that our breed club won't allow anything over a 15 hipscore to be bred from, much, much smaller breeds will allow upto 35/40 when hip dysplacia is around a 90. Remember most hipscoring is done at 18 months so it only gets worst and a small breed should be a heck of alot lower than a large breed as they're carrying alot less weight and also the majority will do alot less work, small dogs like Pugs and cavvy's are not usually particularly active - hence older people owning them. So why so lenient regarding hipscores?

Re. Ridgebacks I'll have to re-watch it but I'm sure they said it is a type of SB.

You should be fine breeding a working breed regarding bad press anyway.

 

[prose]

[ QUOTE ]
The woman showing and studding out the cavi with a diagnosed neurological problem.....DISGUSTING

everyone who can prove that their puppy is the off spring of that dog should beable to re-coup any vets bills in regard to any hereditary problem connected.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is really shocking. I had a conversation with a CKCS breeder at a "Meet the Breed" event in a NY park last year, and she mentioned this condition. She couldn't have been more honest and up front with me about the deficiencies in the breed, and how she comes down like a ton of bricks on anyone in her group who tries to get away with that [****].

It has made me think twice about a CKCS or a dachshund for my next breed, though. Not sure what the heck to go for now

 

[Oneofthepack]

I watched 3/4 of it and turned over before I threw something. That hideous woman who saw nothing wrong with 'culling' pups with no ridge, even though the ridge is associated with the horrible dermoid cysts that affect the breed. And the worst thing I've ever seen was those poor GSD's with the malformed hocks....and those bloody awful breeders see nothing wrong and say 'it's the breed standard'. It sodding well isn't, it's just how they interpret it. Makes me madder than irresponsible dog owners who dump unwanted dogs as these are SUPPOSED to be people to look up to in the dog world. Bloody revolting the whole thing.

 

[Kenzo]

My dad watched it and recorded it for me, because I have not seen it yet I cant really comment exactly about it but my dad who shows and breeds dogs said it was very interesting, some things he agreed with, some he said was absolutely rubbish.

Why show and use a dog at stud to produce over 30 odd litters when it has a defect (was it a spaniel or something?) sorry its just what he was telling me abuot over the phone so I cant really comment properly on it yet.

Oh and boxer dogs, my parents bred and showed boxers for over 20 years...not one suffered with any kind of probelms nor any of there off spring.

I have a pug, she extermely active...does not have any breathing problems what so ever, does not walk like a cripple and she produced a healthy litter a few years ago with no problems, by the sounds of it they have highlighted breed realated defects/genetic disordors etc and blown them out of proportion, yes breeders should be extermely careful and be responsible, which was also my fathers point, anway I'll watch it this evening

I dont agree with culling pups, nor do I agree with breeding from dogs that clearly have a problem etc.

A lot of breeders are careful, take for instance the Italian Spinone's which is what my dad shows, they have to be scanned, bloods taken to see if they are carriers and have their hips scored to make sure that the breed is up to the breed standard and only healthy dogs are bred from.

 

[echodomino]

I find it hard to believe re the Ridges that it's SB, a whole breed that's however old has been affected with it from the word go? In the grand scheme of things there aren't that many born without ridges - does that mean they rarely breed a healthy dog?

Am fairly certain it's just the way the coat goes. Perhaps someone on here with a RR would be happy to pass comment? Would be interested to hear what someone within the breed thinks

 

[severnmiles]

Echo, is it so hard to think that people don't always breed for health of an animal as perhaps you and I do?

Take the racing industry, they are breeding for speed, speed to speed, they don't consider soundness, temperament, conformation e.t.c when they're breeding. Some dog breederss are selectively breeding type to type and forgetting the temperament and health side of things.

I'm sure neither you nor I can comment on the ratio of RR's born without the ridge to those born with a ridge as neither of us breed them. In fact just done a google and approx one third are born without the ridge.

The original breed standard was only created in the early 20's so not yet 100 years old it is a relatively young breed although the cross was formed some years ago.

 

[Acolyte]

Prose I would reiterate what I have said on every thread about this programme - please do not think that the programme showed the full story about syringomyelia in cavaliers, it most certainly did not. My conversation with my Mum last night (who is a leading cavalier exhibitor/judge/breeder) made that very clear to me - she filled in the gaps which the programme had ommitted, and a lot of the stuff they had said was suddenly put into perspective.

Mum has just lost her oldest stud dog at 14 years old - apart from a slight heart murmur as he got older (which my whippets, greyhounds and lurchers have also had) he was as healthy as anything

 

[echodomino]

[ QUOTE ]
Echo, is it so hard to think that people don't always breed for health of an animal as perhaps you and I do?

Take the racing industry, they are breeding for speed, speed to speed, they don't consider soundness, temperament, conformation e.t.c when they're breeding. Some dog breederss are selectively breeding type to type and forgetting the temperament and health side of things.

I'm sure neither you nor I can comment on the ratio of RR's born without the ridge to those born with a ridge as neither of us breed them. In fact just done a google and approx one third are born without the ridge.

The original breed standard was only created in the early 20's so not yet 100 years old it is a relatively young breed although the cross was formed some years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

No not hard at all, just find it hard to believe that nearly everybody involved with the RR is breeding unhealthy dogs and that only 1/3 of the breed is considered healthy. Ok so they're not the oldest breed but where did I say they were? I merely said "however old" - makes no difference how old they are because I said that I found it hard to believe the breed had been effected with it from the start.

The KC and the RRCGB say in their breed standard:[ QUOTE ]
Characteristics
Peculiarity is the ridge on back formed by hair growing in opposite direction to the remainder of coat

[/ QUOTE ]
Take it how you will

 

[prose]

[ QUOTE ]
Prose I would reiterate what I have said on every thread about this programme - please do not think that the programme showed the full story about syringomyelia in cavaliers, it most certainly did not. My conversation with my Mum last night (who is a leading cavalier exhibitor/judge/breeder) made that very clear to me - she filled in the gaps which the programme had ommitted, and a lot of the stuff they had said was suddenly put into perspective.

Mum has just lost her oldest stud dog at 14 years old - apart from a slight heart murmur as he got older (which my whippets, greyhounds and lurchers have also had) he was as healthy as anything

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure it didn't. There are unhealthy examples within every breed. I went to a Boston Terrier show last year, and was horrified to see some waddling little 12lb BTs that were more like pugs. My friend has a 24lb dog, lean as you like, an agility champ, and she had the hardest time getting his championship points. The fat small BTs were few and far between, but still, it makes me so cross. They're active little dogs, and it does them a great disservice, breeding them that way.

 

[ZejakRidgebacks]

Ridgeback info for you all from the daughter of a KC Accredited breeder who has been breeding for outstanding temperaments for over 20 years (www.zejakridgebacks.co.uk)

1. Ridges are not Spina Bifida. There are very occasional small numbers of a condition called Dermoid Sinus found in Ridgebacks. There are no official figures (no matter what you may read) for this disease occuring. Responsible breeders check for DS at least weekly until the puppies leave to go to their new homes, and if the condition is found the pup is put to sleep before they start to suffer.

2. Zejak Ridgebacks are not members of the RR Club of GB as we do not agree with the item in their code of 'ethics' which says ridgeless puppies shall be culled at birth. Ridgeless puppies (rare, and again NO official figures anywhere to suggest how many are born each year, but certainly not a 1/4 or 1/3 as suggested). We keep ridgeless puppies, they go to loving homes, and their KC papers are endorsed with 'progeny not eligible for registration' and the puppy has a contract which will make it very clear that it is not to be bred from, can't be shown and must be neutered at 6 months old.

3. All Zejak puppies have their KC papers endorsed r.e. the progency not being eligible for registration. If someone wants to breed they have to call my Mum (Jackie) the breeder first. There are too many people breeding RRs with no care and consideration to temperament.

4. I too am disgusted by Ann Woodrow being interviewed and stating that ridgeless puppies should be put down. This is a view she has stated for many years, but in this day and age it is not a view you can carry on with. The puppies without ridges don't know they aren't perfect - indeed they are perfect in every single way except for having the ridge, purely a cosmetic thing now. At one point, RRs were used for hunting lions, and the Africans found that the dogs with ridges were better hunters, so this is where it all came from.

5. RRs are made up of many different dogs and so have a large gene pool. One particular gene strain to note is that of the African wild dog, a very robust and healthy dog, which passed these qualities on to RRs now who actually have very few health problems. They are all Hip Scored before breeding, and if you choose a decent honest dedicated and knowledgeable breeder you will find a beautiful healthy puppy.

6. At Zejak Ridgebacks, we published a statement on our website (www.zejakridgebacks.co.uk) r.e. the BBC programme and so far have had LOADS of messages of support, as so far we are the only UK breeder to have had a say against the BBC programme and what the RR Club of GB has been promoting (i.e. culling ridgeless pups).

7. For any other RR info, see the website or ask me a question!

Amy Ellis
on behalf of Zejak Ridgebacks

 

[severnmiles]

Really nice to hear from a breeder! Think Echo and I have been waiting to.

You sound a super breeder with great ethics. I'm glad the ridgeless ones are given homes and it was wrong of the programme to say Spine Bifida when it's occasionally DS. I found the 1/3rd figure online so shows you can't believe everything you read.

Stunning dogs

 

[prose]

I finally saw this last night, on YouTube. That poor Cavalier. And the Boxer. The entire programme made me so angry and sad.

I was astonished at the audacity of that stupid bint, studding out her ill Cavi like that. Does she have ice running through her veins or something?

To the Ridgeback breeder, it's heartening to hear there are good breeders doing good work. I was always under the impression that the UK was far advanced, in terms of health testing, but the show threw me for a loop. I've no doubt such disgraces pass unseen over here, too, but of the BT breeders I know, not a single one doesn't OFA patellas, hearing (BAER) and eyes (CERF) on all their breeding stock, and BAER their pups as well.

As for those asswipes who would put down healthy, non-cosmetically perfect pups, I was dumbfounded. Again, that's how you supply owners with "pet standard" pups. For BTs, the most obvious cosmetic reasons would mean blue eyes or a mismark:

I know reputable breeders whose dogs have produced both, and those dogs are pictured prominently on their websites, enjoying life with their owners. Can't think why on earth anyone would wish to hide such "scandals", or put the dogs down

, especially if--like the breeders I know--you're not allowed breeding rights, anyway.

 

[Acolyte]

There is FAR more to the matter of the cavalier being used at stud than was shown on the programme, however I do not feel it is appropriate to quote what I have been told as it was said to me in confidence. Maybe that sounds like a cop-out, but it is the truth.

I asked my mum why one cavalier breeder had categorically stated that she would not have her dogs MRI scanned for the condition - there is a valid reason, which Mum suspects was stated at the time but was conveniently edited out of the programme.

 

[severnmiles]

What is the reason or can you not say?

 

[Acolyte]

Sorry Severnmiles should have said about that! Apparently MRI scans are NOT accurate at diagnosing syringomyelia, and some breeders feel that until they are then they do not wish to have all their dogs scanned. I would imagine (having had a horse MRI scanned) that cost might be a factor there?

However - DISCLAIMER HERE! - this was only what I was told, not my personal opinion, and I have no idea whether this is the case or not. I personally would still want to have my dogs scanned before breeding from them even if it was not 100% accurate/succesful..... suffice to say that Mum and I agreed to differ on that one

 

[MurphysMinder]

There is quite an interesting discussion going on on a GSD forum at the moment with suggestions as to how the KC can ensure only helathy stock is bred from. Just goes to show not all breeders are out to make money whilst destroying the breed.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins.htm