Dog Show People please?

CorvusCorax

CorvusCorax

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What would you rather have/which would you rather support/enter?

Not trying to make a point or bitch or moan, I promise, I know where I came from :p but am genuinely interested.

1) A dog show where any dog attached to the registry running the show can enter.
Paperwork not x-checked prior to entry into ring.
Past pedigree, working ability, health test results not taken into account.
Dog judged on temperament, movement, adherence to standard of individual dog alone, in the ring, on the day.
Dog has the potential to win prize which is recognised in country of origin and can add towards a championship recognised in country of origin.
A winning dog could potentially have a serious hereditary fault, but because it acts and moves well on the day, still may pick up the top prize of the day.

2) A dog show in which only dogs with working qualification and full (up to a certain standard) health tests can reach the top class.
Dogs which do not possess these may compete up until a certain level but not the top class of the day and the class from which the best dog or bitch of the day is chosen.
All paperwork (ID and health/working results) of dog is x-checked before entry to the ring.
Dogs in top class must perform short working test to gain entry to class and cannot proceed to the class if failed.
Dog judged on temperament, movement, adherence to standard, working ability and health test results.
Dog has the potential to receive world-recognised grading and a potential title, but one which does not 'add up' to anything.
This option is a lot more time and money intensive, in terms of all the work that has to be put into training the dog for the working title and paying for health test results.
 
1 for me.

I have pugs and chihuahuas so not sure how their "working" ability would be judged, that makes 2 completely useless for me. Also, the basenji, it would be very difficult to accurately recreate the environment they are used to hunt in, the closest is lure coursing but that doesnt test the working ability the dogs are truely used for.

IMO showing is for people who want to show. There are plenty of gundog/obedience/agility etc etc etc competitions to gain titles to prove the dogs working ability. The two should be kept seperate :)

Also, the idea of checking the paperwork/health testing of 25,000 dogs at Crufts and having it assessed (presumably by a vet?) to be of acceptable standard would be very difficult, if not impossible. It would be better IMO to have restrictions on registering puppies eg. both parents should have to have acceptable health test results before the litter can be registered, rather than trying to enforce health testing at the ring.
 
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OK :) good point - but what about the health tests, if they are relevant for the breed?

Re the 'work' - it's often said that showing has 'ruined' and caused a split in certain breeds :p for some types of working breeds, I would argue that the second option would encourage more uniformity in type.
But agree it would be impossible to demonstrate that in the ring for a lot of breeds in terms of the work they are designed to do.
 
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Sorry, just edited my post and added that :)

One thing to bear in mind too, many health tests cant be done before the dog is 12 months (or 2 years in some cases) so excluding unhealth tested dogs from the ring would mean many puppies couldnt be shown, and some not until they are two. This would be unfair to those breeds with those health tests when some could be shown as pups due to having DNA health testing. It would be a logistical nightmare to enforce and there would be uproar!
 
How about an option 3?

Show as in option 1 -after all it is a show - but no progeny can be registered unless the dog has passed any relevant health and working test?
 
The health tests would only apply to the 'top' class, so say, the equivalent of what is currently the Open class, and only the Open class winners of either sex could go forward to be best dog and best bitch. Meaning dogs in lower classes, while they can win and get a grading, could not get the top prize.

A good alternative, S4S :)
 
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UnaB said:
Also, the idea of checking the paperwork/health testing of 25,000 dogs at Crufts and having it assessed (presumably by a vet?) to be of acceptable standard would be very difficult, if not impossible. It would be better IMO to have restrictions on registering puppies eg. both parents should have to have acceptable health test results before the litter can be registered, rather than trying to enforce health testing at the ring.
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No, it would be when people arrive at the show and collect their numbers, chip is scanned or tattoo is read, x-checked, paperwork/health certificates are looked at, number is handed out.
It happens at huge shows on the continent.
 
CaveCanem said:
The health tests would only apply to the 'top' class, so say, the equivalent of what is currently the Open class, and only the Open class winners of either sex could go forward to be best dog and best bitch. Meaning dogs in lower classes, while they can win and get a grading, could not get the top prize.

A good alternative, S4S :)
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But what if the best dog, the most deserving of the top prize on conformation and movement (which is what a dog show is primarily judged on) is not in the open classes? Tickets would be awarded to dogs that are not the best of the entry. Also, with entries falling as they are and the debates about whether there should be champion classes to give other dogs more of a chance at tickets, removing a huge percentage of the entry from being able to get a ticket would almost certainly mean a very large drop in entries. I know I wouldnt enter if I knew for a fact my dogs would have absolutely no chance of being considered for the ticket due to their age/the class they were in.

Its a good idea in principle, and im all for health testing and moving forwards, but I dont think the show ring is the place to do it. The KC need to be stricter on registrations, only allowing litters from health tested parents, with acceptable results, to be registered (this would also mean a lot less Puppy farmers and hobby breeders having pups for the sake of it) and that in turn would mean that only dogs with health tested parents would be in the ring. That is certainly a major step in the right direction and would identify unhealthy lines/producers.
 
UnaB, would you genuinely not enter because although you might win a prize, it would not be a top prize/put your dog in line for a title?

Do you agree with young dogs/dogs from the youth classes being given top prizes/titles above older dogs, when they may not have physically matured yet?
(Not having a go, genuinely interested - there have been puppies winning top honours which has caused a bit of a hullaballoo recently - especially since it would not be allowed in the judge's country of origin :) )

There are champion classes happening in other systems/registries...not sure I see the point of them, to be honest, if a champion gets beaten by a dog that is not a champion...it happens!

Where do people stand on champions - if you get your tickets and make your dog up, do you retire it, let the dog rest on it's laurels, breed it, let others have a chance, whatever, or do you carry on, and how far do you go? Bearing in mind, our breed record holder had 52 CCs? Is it a numbers game?

Again, I come from a showing background, not having a dig at anyone!
 
CaveCanem said:
UnaB, would you genuinely not enter because although you might win a prize, it would not be a top prize/put your dog in line for a title?
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I have two dogs at the moment that I am trying to gain titles with so yes, if there was only one class that could gain titles and my dogs were not eligable to enter them, I would not enter the show at all. It costs around £50 per dog per show (taking into account fuel, time off work etc etc) to enter so I wouldnt waste that sort of money, i'd rather go to an open show for a fraction of the price which would do the same.

Do you agree with young dogs/dogs from the youth classes being given top prizes/titles above older dogs, when they may not have physically matured yet?
(Not having a go, genuinely interested - there have been puppies winning top honours which has caused a bit of a hullaballoo recently - especially since it would not be allowed in the judge's country of origin :) )
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I have no problem with it if the dog is truely the best one on the day. Thats what the judge is judging afterall, not how the dog will look in 12 months time but how it looks on the day. It has happened a lot in the last couple of years in my breeds and shows the quality of youngsters coming up through the ranks. My own dogs litter brother had 4 CCs at 12 months of age, he went on to be Top Dog this year (at 2 years old) and now has about 15 or 20 CCs and is an excellent example of the breed :)

There are champion classes happening in other systems/registries...not sure I see the point of them, to be honest, if a champion gets beaten by a dog that is not a champion...it happens!

Where do people stand on champions - if you get your tickets and make your dog up, do you retire it, let the dog rest on it's laurels, breed it, let others have a chance, whatever, or do you carry on, and how far do you go? Bearing in mind, our breed record holder had 52 CCs? Is it a numbers game?


Again, I come from a showing background, not having a dig at anyone!
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I dont see any problem continuing to show them, often the dogs love to show and the owners love showing them. I do prefer the idea of champion classes as they have in america. It would give other people a chance at the ticket who might be overlooked with if the current "favourite" dog in the breed was in the class.
 
Show 2. Not neccessarily working abilities for all breeds but have a real bug bear with dogs with known health issues winning at shows, they quite simply are not a good representation of the breed and shouldn't be allowed placings over healthy dogs.
 
I agree with UnaB that I wouldnt enter a show in the lower classes if you were not in the running for a CC, that would be pointless and wouldnt work.
 
Thanks for the views/opinions, keep them coming :)

In fairness, almost all of the young dogs who have been given top honours over older dogs, that I have seen have gone on to do very well indeed in adulthood, so the recognition of early promise was vindicated.
 
1.. It is judging the dog on the day which is how most competitions work.
Breeding is a separate issue to a certain extent. You can overkill something regarding the working must be able to show etc.
Agility is for showing the ability to work etc. Show 2 sounds too regimented and 'out looking' for trouble.
 
Well of course I know exactly where you are coming from CC, and for our breed I think option 2 is definitely the way to go. BUT I do think it might mean some people who show for fun might give up, that is if people do show for fun anymore. When I had my little bitch with the atrocious hips she had a successful show career, although not up to the top couple of classes. Had hip scores been checked at shows I suspect word would have got out as to how bad her hips were and judges would have seen an unsoundess that wasn't there and penalised her. Perhaps I shouldn't have shown her, as she was never going to be bred from, but we had a lot of fun, and she had a huge fan club.:D
I do feel uncomfy with dogs that chase tickets for the sake of it. I remember when certain dogs were chasing breed records in GSDs, several years apart. There is no doubt in my mind that in some cases they won just because the judge didn't feel brave enough to place another dog over them, and some excellent examples of the breed didn't achieve their title as a result of this.
 
I do show and can only comment regarding my own breed. I show both in the UK and mainland Europe, and have shown in the USA. For us the FCI system and class structure works well, the classes are suited to a large, slow maturing breed, and also you cannot make up an Int Ch until they are at least 2.5 yrs old. Here in the UK once a dog goes out of Junior at 18 months it is against adults (unless there is a yearling class but these are very scarce). And there really is a world of difference in a 19 month old dog and a 3 - 4 yr old just approaching physical maturity. Abroad though you can aim at a Junior Ch title.

There does seem to be a desire here to finish a dog young, often too young. Also under the FCI system they have a working class (at confirmation shows) for which the dog must have a working certificate, and you can also go for a working title (lure coursing) which we do not have here at all. There is a UK coursing title "of Merit" but the requirements and level of competition is nothing like abroad. Ditto in the US it is considered desirable to have a dual Ch - both show and field titles. For one thing having the working title it keeps peoples mind on just what the dog was bred for in the first place, and also how it was expected to work. Rather than just be seen as a show ring object and bred soley to succeed at confirmation. Some of the extremes seen in the show ring would make the dog totally unsuitable as a working animal.

CC's - a dog here gets on a roll and judges are afraid to put them down. This ultimately prevents equally good, or better dogs from moving up to a Ch title. The KC really needs to either make RCC's count when the dog on the day awarded the CC is already a Ch, or introduce a Ch class.

Health certificates. It is not something that is commonly done within my breed here. There are no compulsory requirements for the breed. However in the USA people do as a matter of course get Eye, Cardiac, Thyroid, Degenerative Myelopathy, and often Elbow and Hip clearances done and the dogs wil be put on the CHIC register. Would love to see that happen here. Mainland Europe and Scandinavia - some countries (not all) your dog must be approved for breeding, and if not the progeny cannot be registered. We do not even have the basics of health checks for entering a showground - vaccinations, etc, here. Again on the continent every dog entering a show has to show their vaccination records to the vet team on duty on the day.
 
Musings!!!

Good post Zoisrus (love the name, just worked out how to say/read it :D) I see what happens in Europe and wonder why we cannot implement the same, particularly in the Scandinavian countries.
I don't know what is so hard about it (well, money, clearly!)

Also, agility is by no means the only sport/discipline which shows that dogs are agile/fit for purpose - there are hundreds.

I'm not suggesting that dogs with unseen imperfections (such as dogs with bad hips that look sound, dogs with epilepsy etc - all three of the GSDs which won Supreme Champion at Crufts carried/threw hereditary faults) cannot show at all, just that they cannot reach the very top positions - they can win a class, but not the biggest class, to put it bluntly.

There is a dog on the circuit in the UK with a very high score on one hip, he's a champion, not a stud of course and his owner is very open about it. He could in 'show 2' win the open class and be 'best adult male' but could not compete in the top class.

There already is a tiered system I suppose, with matches/exemption shows, open shows, and championship shows, I guess the '2' option is taking it up a notch, with tiers inside the actual show itself, I don't mean to suggest 'show 2' as law, to replace the championship show or to be a rival to the championship show, just another alternative - it is a type of show that already is commonplace in Europe and is certainly not 'looking for trouble'.

I do get frustrated by the amount of people who say 'we want shows like they have on the continent...more rules and regulations...we want health tests...we want shows that prove our breed is fit for purpose...' then when the shows are put on in their backyard, at considerable expense and wrangling...they don't enter their own dogs.

Also, it is more noticeable, now the money isn't there any more to buy in the prestige dogs with all the titles and tests carried out for them already, or to send the dogs away for someone else to do it...but also, on a brighter note, the talent of people now more prepared to put the hard work in is also starting to shine through.
 
I don`t see the point of anyone trolling around taking CC`s off healthy dogs with a physically defective one.The show ring is the shop window for breeding,if you KNOW an animal is`nt good enough to ever be bred from ..leave it at home.Nor do I see the point in showing neuters,for the same reason. The whole point is to breed the best,beat the rest and then go home and try to breed and better that one.
Happily in my breeds health testing is becoming more usual ,judges sometimes are inept at spotting lameness (yes really) but this new "fit for function " stuff is beginning to bite.
 
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