Dog Training

[AHPL]

Hi again everyone,
I'm a member of a puppy training group on Facebook, they are discussing the programme Dogs Behaving Badly and Steve Mann. I read Steve Manns book before I got Lucy , it was good however he says you shouldn't teach a dog the word No. So they are saying on this thread that the trainer off the programme is using outdated methods etc because he tells them off ? So is that training methods now, not to say no to your puppy ?

 

[AHPL]

Sorry, have to include a pic of Lucy ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

It doesn't matter what word you use, dogs don't understand English, it's the tone of voice and the timing that's important and the administration of consequence.

I do use 'Ah Ah' and 'No' for my various dogs if/when they are about to execute an undesirable/dangerous behaviour/get their attention because I think it's grossly unfair not to tell a dog what you do/do not want and expect them to have to guess.
When they stop whatever it is and return to me they get some form of positive.

 

[scats]

I haven’t read the book. What’s the reasoning behind not using the word no?

 

[blackcob]

Thank you for providing the mandatory picture without prompting ?

YMMV but I think that the problem with 'no' in isolation is that it doesn't mean very much to a dog. They don't speak English; no is just a noise that occurs in lots of different circumstances, which probably doesn't result in any immediate consequences that a dog understands, and is often poorly timed after the undesired behaviour has already taken place. See also: people who repeat the dog's name over and over and over and are surprised when nothing different happens.

It's not about never telling a dog off, more like if you're going to use no or another interruptor, it actually has to be paired with a behaviour before it means anything - so 'ah ah' is trained to mean 'look at me and I'll give you something more interesting to do', kind of thing.

 

[AmyMay]

My dog understands perfectly what the word ‘no’ means ??

 

[CorvusCorax]

Perennial question whenever these threads come up lol...have Steve Mann or the chap off Dogs Not Doing Things qualified a dog in any sort of sport/discipline?
Genuinely interested.

Competition isn't the be all and end all, but it is proof of training/means handler and dog have applied themselves against a certain standard.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Lucy is very pretty!

My dog training methods are probably very old-fashioned but why wouldn't you tell a dog No!' or 'Stop!' or something similar? Is it really better to let it chew an electric cable?

 

[blackcob]

Presumably no in that example is followed up with a consequence though; hopefully moving the dog away or removing the cable rather than an electric shock. ?

I can only assume that the book cautions against using no as a catch-all term of exasperation and expecting the dog to somehow divine which behaviour you want when it could be get down/stop biting/come here/drop that/stop pulling etc.

 

[planete]

If I remember rightly, it is better to ask the dog to offer a different behaviour than to just say no. For instance if your puppy is thinking of pouncing on the cat you ask him to sit, play tug of war with you or anything else you can think of. Just saying no is not telling the pup what behaviour you would like him to perform. Personally I find no or any other interruptor extremely useful when you only have a split second to stop a dog from executing whatever suicidal behaviour he has just thought of, especially before you have perfected the more advanced training which will, in theory, give you perfect control.

 

[Goldenstar]

All my dogs are taught ahah a mild don’t do it and NO which is strong don’t .
I am not about to change that .

 

[MurphysMinder]

I've got a 12 week old pup and 'Ah Ah' is used frequently, followed by redirection on to something I want him to do. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey (which I am) I think things are going too far on the positive training front, leading to a lot of undisciplined dogs around. I am in a couple of GSD facebook groups and it is worrying how many people are struggling with normal puppy behaviour because everyone frowns on anything other than stuffing them full of treats. One group won't allow pictures of dogs in even a half check collar as they are considered "aversive", so instead you have pictures of pups just a few months old looking miserable in various headcollars.
I tend to avoid puppy and training related programmes on tv as they are usually bad for my blood pressure, I have watched Dogs behaving badly a couple of times, my main thought was that the so called miracle improvements certainly didn't happen in the time scale suggested and probably the dogs had some pretty intense training off the trainer.

 

[MissTyc]

I don't ever use "no" with my dogs or horses, unless it's a wailing sort of Noooooooooooo ...

More seriously, I find it helps my own mindset to avoid the word because I use it ALL the time if I'm not careful. I have "Leave", "Wait", "Stop" and the most important one is AHAH, which basically means whatever it is you're doing or thinking of doing, DON'T. ... I'm sure if I shouted NO they would respond to the tone of voice, but it's not a word I miss.

 

[skinnydipper]

This is a post from 2 years ago by Sally Gutteridge, Canine Principles.

I’m a 5-foot (150cm) average build female.
In many years as part of the Royal Army Veterinary Corps I have successfully trained hundreds of dogs for:

Bite-work – patrol and protection.
Crowd control.
Police dog work.
People search.
Arms Explosive Search.
Vehicle Search.
Drugs Detection.
Tracking.
Area search.
To accept being in helicopters.
To work under severe pressure.

During this time, I trained many dogs that more experienced people failed to handle. And handled dogs doing these jobs, in operational conditions in some worrying countries, covering the majority of working breeds.

Next, I trained hearing dogs for deaf people who were often small, companion dog breeds with no working interest at all. In my opinion this is where real skill is learned. Teaching a Papillion to voluntarily lead you to a ringing phone, takes true skill. Add years of rescue experience, work in Spanish pounds, assessing, search and rescue, boarding kennel management and guess what:

I HAVE NEVER TOUCHED:
An electric collar.
A prong collar.
A choke chain.
A citronella spray collar.
A master plus.
(I have however used a clicker more times than I can remember)

So please don’t tell me that these nasty things are simply a useful tool in the right hands. They are not. Your education, your brain and your eyes are useful tools of the dog training trade, pain, threats, dominance and fear are not.

Let’s move on.

Sally

(Extra point, I never saw any of the above collars used on or with British army dogs - at any time, by anyone)

 

[BBP]

I've got a 12 week old pup and 'Ah Ah' is used frequently, followed by redirection on to something I want him to do. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey (which I am) I think things are going too far on the positive training front, leading to a lot of undisciplined dogs around. I am in a couple of GSD facebook groups and it is worrying how many people are struggling with normal puppy behaviour because everyone frowns on anything other than stuffing them full of treats. One group won't allow pictures of dogs in even a half check collar as they are considered "aversive", so instead you have pictures of pups just a few months old looking miserable in various headcollars.
I tend to avoid puppy and training related programmes on tv as they are usually bad for my blood pressure, I have watched Dogs behaving badly a couple of times, my main thought was that the so called miracle improvements certainly didn't happen in the time scale suggested and probably the dogs had some pretty intense training off the trainer.

I’d disagree slightly on the positive training = undisciplined dogs (although I’m not qualified in my opinion at all). I think it’s more that no training = undisciplined dogs. People think that by using a treat to teach the dog to sit or lie down they are a positive trainer, but that’s the extent of the training. The dog is left to run riot the rest of the time. They don’t consider training to be a part of the everyday fabric of life with a dog. I think that’s where it falls down.

I definitely think no or ah! has a place as an interruptor sound, to get their eyes on your to await the next command ‘leave it’ ‘down’ whatever. I also think that ‘no, naughty dog’ with no follow up cue is pretty useless.

 

[skinnydipper]

They don’t consider training to be a part of the everyday fabric of life with a dog. I think that’s where it falls down.

^^This^^

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Presumably no in that example is followed up with a consequence though; hopefully moving the dog away or removing the cable rather than an electric shock. ?

I can only assume that the book cautions against using no as a catch-all term of exasperation and expecting the dog to somehow divine which behaviour you want when it could be get down/stop biting/come here/drop that/stop pulling etc.

TBH, I would have thought that was obvious, except to those who really shouldn't have a dog.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I’d disagree slightly on the positive training = undisciplined dogs (although I’m not qualified in my opinion at all). I think it’s more that no training = undisciplined dogs. People think that by using a treat to teach the dog to sit or lie down they are a positive trainer, but that’s the extent of the training. The dog is left to run riot the rest of the time. They don’t consider training to be a part of the everyday fabric of life with a dog. I think that’s where it falls down.

I definitely think no or ah! has a place as an interruptor sound, to get their eyes on your to await the next command ‘leave it’ ‘down’ whatever. I also think that ‘no, naughty dog’ with no follow up cue is pretty useless.

Oh absolutely, wasn’t implying that. Just that particularly if you have a highly intelligent breed like a Gsd you need to lay firm boundaries, and telling them for eg that you don’t want them on the furniture is fine .

 

[Goldenstar]

If I remember rightly, it is better to ask the dog to offer a different behaviour than to just say no. For instance if your puppy is thinking of pouncing on the cat you ask him to sit, play tug of war with you or anything else you can think of. Just saying no is not telling the pup what behaviour you would like him to perform. Personally I find no or any other interruptor extremely useful when you only have a split second to stop a dog from executing whatever suicidal behaviour he has just thought of, especially before you have perfected the more advanced training which will, in theory, give you perfect control.

If my puppy pounced on the cat I would now say no and mean it .
She’s been here a month long enough to understand that chasing cats is not allowed I don’t want to give a command other than don’t do that .
At first I would use a degree of diversion but once they know what’s what I would just ahah which tbh would stop her now if not I would say no and mean it .
I would not give a command unless I wanted her to do something else .
I am of course training Labradors , natural team players who want to fit in .

 

[AmyMay]

Was I wrong to tell Daisy ‘no’ last night (3.00am) when she started growling at the foxes outside? Or should I have used a diversion tactic???

 

[CMcC]

I've got a 12 week old pup and 'Ah Ah' is used frequently, followed by redirection on to something I want him to do. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey (which I am) I think things are going too far on the positive training front, leading to a lot of undisciplined dogs around. I am in a couple of GSD facebook groups and it is worrying how many people are struggling with normal puppy behaviour because everyone frowns on anything other than stuffing them full of treats.

Couldn’t agree more. I am on a Saluki group on Facebook, year old Saluki had been growling and biting if food was removed or owners tried to go to certain parts of the house the dog considered hers. This had been going on since dog was a puppy. Working with a behaviourist whose advice was to distract the dog by throwing the dog a treat to move it way from what she was resource guarding. Give me strength, I have had dogs who have tried that with me. They did it once, a very firm and loud NO in their face and they never tried it again. I didn’t have the courage to say this in comments, one person did and got shouted down by all the “positive reinforcement” advocates. To me there is a line that dogs don’t cross.

 

[skinnydipper]

They did it once, a very firm and loud NO in their face and they never tried it again.

I wouldn't recommend that as a training technique, sounds like a good way to have your face taken off.

ETA. Before some smart arse comes along again and tells me I should have taken on somebody else's dog on its 5th home - I've got the Tshirt for that thanks. I adopted a bull terrier from the Dogs Trust who had a warning on her enclosure as she had been returned so many times - this was her fifth and final home. She lived here till old age and was PTS because of cancer.

When I saw the posts on a recent thread I knew the dog in my avatar, who was a behavioural mess when I got him, would have had had one way trip to the vets if some of you had taken him on.

PS. I train and expect good manners - I don't use aversives.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

They don’t consider training to be a part of the everyday fabric of life with a dog. I think that’s where it falls down.

There are people on here who talk about 'training' with their dogs as if that is a completely separate activity from the rest of their daily lives. I don't actually think that most of them behave that way, they mean some specific kind of training but not necessarily for competition.
I maintain that every interaction with your dog is training, just as every time you ride your horse, you are schooling, whether you call it that or not.

 

[BBP]

There are people on here who talk about 'training' with their dogs as if that is a completely separate activity from the rest of their daily lives. I don't actually think that most of them behave that way, they mean some specific kind of training but not necessarily for competition.
I maintain that every interaction with your dog is training, just as every time you ride your horse, you are schooling, whether you call it that or not.

Yes I think that’s what I mean. The dog doesn’t stop learning just because you think you have stopped teaching for the day.

 

[AHPL]

I haven’t read the book. What’s the reasoning behind not using the word no?

He says we should guide the puppy not say no to them.

 

[CorvusCorax]

There are people on here who talk about 'training' with their dogs as if that is a completely separate activity from the rest of their daily lives. I don't actually think that most of them behave that way, they mean some specific kind of training but not necessarily for competition.
I maintain that every interaction with your dog is training, just as every time you ride your horse, you are schooling, whether you call it that or not.

This too. The amount of people (including my own mother) who I've had to tell 'so you actually trained the dog to do this, whether you realised it or not' (in her case barking in the car, by executing the same super exciting routine every day for months) and they just don't get it...and then they get annoyed when they have to put the same amount of time into untraining it....
Funnily enough she doesn't want to do the (potentially months of) dull boring work that it will take to undo it.

 

[skinnydipper]

This too. The amount of people (including my own mother) who I've had to tell 'so you actually trained the dog to do this, whether you realised it or not' (in her case barking in the car, by executing the same super exciting routine every day for months) and they just don't get it...and then they get annoyed when they have to put the same amount of time into untraining it....
Funnily enough she doesn't want to do the (potentially months of) dull boring work that it will take to undo it.

I have the misfortune to see (or rather hear) a bloke with his two beagles who demand bark. Of course he throws the ball, instead of waiting for quiet and asking for a sit (and staying quiet) before throwing the ball.

ETA. Should we have a thread on manners and teaching self control?

 

[CorvusCorax]

See I do expect mine to bark for a ball/food but it's contextual and they also know the word to stop it again lol. Horses for courses

 

[blackcob]

TBH, I would have thought that was obvious, except to those who really shouldn't have a dog.

I dunno, I was pretty unpopular when I suggested to a family member that bellowing the dog's name another 10 or 15 times, at increasing volume, probably wasn't going to change the outcome of the dog bogging off down the field after a scent so they might as well hold their breath and achieve the same. ? It's part of that trap of "he knows he shouldn't do it" and people throwing up their hands in despair at an 'untrainable' dog that's actually just learned that their owner is ignorable white noise which is the bread and butter of those kind of books and TV shows.

 

[CorvusCorax]

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