Dogging In

Clodagh

Clodagh

Playing chess with pigeons
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At last, harvest has started, so happy OH.
It means though that I am now dogging in on my own. This morning I was pushing the poults back along a wide cart track with cover each side so I was on the far right, old lab was in the middle, deaf lurcher was wandering around in a daze (we will call her the 'sweeper') and young lab was working the left hand cover strip. She understands stop but I need a 'go slow'. I say 'steady, steady' which works a bit but I want her to walk forwards, the poults are only young although flying well so at the moment they don't need frightening, that comes next month. Collies do it so it must be possible to teach a lab, what do I do? She stops on the whistle but when I signal her to move on she tends to dart forward, then I stop her again...how do I get a more consistent creep?
 
Clodagh said:
At last, harvest has started, so happy OH.
It means though that I am now dogging in on my own. This morning I was pushing the poults back along a wide cart track with cover each side so I was on the far right, old lab was in the middle, deaf lurcher was wandering around in a daze (we will call her the 'sweeper') and young lab was working the left hand cover strip. She understands stop but I need a 'go slow'. I say 'steady, steady' which works a bit but I want her to walk forwards, the poults are only young although flying well so at the moment they don't need frightening, that comes next month. Collies do it so it must be possible to teach a lab, what do I do? She stops on the whistle but when I signal her to move on she tends to dart forward, then I stop her again...how do I get a more consistent creep?
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You cracked it in your last line. Stop, Go, Stop, Go... Be insistent and make a threat if she doesn't stop instantly. This is a necessary part of training a pointer or a setter to road after running birds. I use the command "Sit". That can range from "SIT!!!!" to "...sss...", the latter making them hesitate and wonder if you have really said Sit at all. They'll look to you for reassurance so your body language should also say what you mean, if you understand me. Also, by varying the tone and emphasis, you can have the dog go instantly flat down and even skid to a halt (in birds dogs) or just hesitate or slow down. Lots of practice and make it fun! Think 'grandma's footsteps'. :) BTW, having several dogs out together won't be helping. You want your trainee to take his cue from you, not one of the other dpgs.
 
There have been more Retrievers ruined by dogging-in live game, than enough. It's spaniels that hunt live game, not the retrieving breeds.

Sorry!

Alec.
 
I have to disagree with you, Alec. Our labs always dog in but one also sits on the peg and I pick up with mine. If you can teach a dog to identify a cancer cell in a sample you can teach it the difference between dogging in and retrieving. When I put on the game bag and/or OH has a gun then they are doing that work, if we have walking sticks they are dogging in. I think it teaches steadiness and they learn to immediately obey you as I expect beyond instant when dogging in. Our dogs are with us from when we roll out of bed in the morning until they have a bedtime biscuit at 10pm, we know each other so well they quite often know what we are doing before we do.
So...I will try DR's sssshhh. She does stop on a whistle peep but I do want a 'walk on' rather than 'gallop on' when moving again. The other dogs re always behind, DR, but I will take her out on her own this evening and see if that helps, she does tend to race.
 
Clodagh said:
I have to disagree with you, Alec. …….. .
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No problem, but should your No. 1 dog reach the stage where she won't heed the whistle and so she no longer listens to you, then you'll be able to look back and reflect as to why. You won't be the first nor yet the last!

Mostly, dogging-in is considered to be rough work for the retrieving breeds and reserved for dogs where control isn't a requirement. Properly 'controlled' dogging-in for the questing breeds 'can (and should)' have the effect of instilling control whilst there isn't the influence of the shoot-day. Control for the established hunting breeds is generally instilled within a range of 25 yards. The same control levels at 200 yards simply don't exist when a retrieving dog has been allowed to hunt for live game.

'tis up to you m'dear! :)

Alec.
 
Fair enough, that makes sense. I doubt I will ever have to work her at 200 yards anyway - she would be on next doors shoot. :-)
 
Alec Swan said:
There have been more Retrievers ruined by dogging-in live game, than enough. It's spaniels that hunt live game, not the retrieving breeds.

Sorry!

Alec.
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So you can't use a Lab for rough shooting? Learn something new on this forum every day!

Am American friend of mine makes a great thing of breeding pointing labs. A bit of nonsense as far as I'm concerned because most dogs can be trained to point. That wouldn't be much use in a retriever though, would it?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...efox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=sCOmV821A4_S8AfknJ3oAg

Alec, if I couldn't stop one of my pointers (or GSD, come to that!) to skidding halt at 200 yards with one blast on the whistle, I would have given it all up long before I did! Done right, control is no different whether it is 25 yards or 200, just don't let the dog know there is a difference.

Sometimes you do talk a load of *******s! 'Because I can't do it, it can't be done". Oh yes it can, matey!

You carry on, Clodagh. I've been driving up one way streets and doing what they say can't be done all my life! :D
 
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Dry Rot said:
So you can't use a Lab for rough shooting? Learn something new on this forum every day!

Am American friend of mine makes a great thing of breeding pointing labs. A bit of nonsense as far as I'm concerned because most dogs can be trained to point. That wouldn't be much use in a retriever though, would it?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...efox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=sCOmV821A4_S8AfknJ3oAg

Alec, if I couldn't stop one of my pointers (or GSD, come to that!) to skidding halt at 200 yards with one blast on the whistle, I would have given it all up long before I did! Done right, control is no different whether it is 25 yards or 200, just don't let the dog know there is a difference.

Sometimes you do talk a load of *******s! 'Because I can't do it, it can't be done". Oh yes it can, matey!

You carry on, Clodagh. I've been driving up one way streets and doing what they say can't be done all my life! :D
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Line 1: at no point have I said that they 'CAN'T' be dual purpose dogs. What I have said, and maintain is that steadiness will almost certainly suffer.

Line 2: your American friends have some strange notions, I agree. Did you, with your 'teach a dog anything' approach have Pointers and Setters which also retrieved?

Line 3: your pointers were never dual purpose point/retrieve as you're well aware, unless perhaps yours were the exception. Have you also with your apparent stance, had Foxhounds 'pointing' and 'retrieving'?

Line 4: I'm wondering which side of the bed you got of of this morning. Don't tell me, your bed's against the wall! :) I'm nonetheless surprised at your lines.

Line 5: you would seem to fly in the face of those who've an equal level of experience, NOT me but those who've kept dogs which were bred and designed for one specific purpose alone. Most would accede to the fact that a dog which can play the piano struggles with making a pot of tea.

It also seems that you've overlooked the fact that the OP is a relative novice with the specifics of Labs. It seems from what I read and from what she tells me that she has a very useful and smart Yellow Lab and that she's made an excellent job of the dog.

Clodagh, pick out of this amusing spat what you wish, but my advice remains the same. You've made an excellent job of Tawny to date and it would be a shame to overturn all your good work.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Clodagh, pick out of this amusing spat what you wish, but my advice remains the same. You've made an excellent job of Tawny to date and it would be a shame to overturn all your good work.

Alec.
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I laughed at you both, but as I really need Tawny to dog in she will have to keep doing it, unless I get a spaniel as back up she is all I have. Still, I appreciate both your advice, DR's for saying go for it and yours for caution. She got a welly up the backside tonight as was definately getting carried away...no clicks or biscuits though! The welly worked well.
 
Alec Swan said:
Line 1: at no point have I said that they 'CAN'T' be dual purpose dogs. What I have said, and maintain is that steadiness will almost certainly suffer.

Line 2: your American friends have some strange notions, I agree. Did you, with your 'teach a dog anything' approach have Pointers and Setters which also retrieved?

Line 3: your pointers were never dual purpose point/retrieve as you're well aware, unless perhaps yours were the exception. Have you also with your apparent stance, had Foxhounds 'pointing' and 'retrieving'?

Line 4: I'm wondering which side of the bed you got of of this morning. Don't tell me, your bed's against the wall! :) I'm nonetheless surprised at your lines.

Line 5: you would seem to fly in the face of those who've an equal level of experience, NOT me but those who've kept dogs which were bred and designed for one specific purpose alone. Most would accede to the fact that a dog which can play the piano struggles with making a pot of tea.

It also seems that you've overlooked the fact that the OP is a relative novice with the specifics of Labs. It seems from what I read and from what she tells me that she has a very useful and smart Yellow Lab and that she's made an excellent job of the dog.

Clodagh, pick out of this amusing spat what you wish, but my advice remains the same. You've made an excellent job of Tawny to date and it would be a shame to overturn all your good work.

Alec.
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Line 3. I won't bother the rest of the nonsense.

I had an interesting chat with a German pointing dog enthusiast who is a trialer in his own country. I forget what they are called but some of their field trials are organised to encourage the hunting skills needed in an all round gamekeeper's dog. They use some British pointing breeds, or used to (English setter, Irish setter, Gordon, etc), and the dogs are required to (a) point game, (b) follow a blood spore, (c) retrieve game, (d) retrieve a brailed duck from water, and (wait for it!) (e) retrieve a dead fox over 1,000 metres! I was amazed at the fox retrieval and surprised at the rest of it. There is a lot more that I've left out.

Shortly after my German friend departed I received a letter from him. His committee had had a meeting and discussed what I'd said about British pointing dogs and retrieving foxes. In consideration of that, they had reduced the retrieve from 1,000 metres to a mere 500 metres! I felt quite flattered.

There was also a requirement for the dog to kill a cat in there somewhere, but I suspect that has since been dropped!

Because you can't do it, Alec, doesn't mean that it can't be done. Sometimes someone has to stand up and say, "You are wrong!"

One of my best retrievers was an Irish setter. She wiped the eyes of all the dogs at one of Lord Seafield's shooting parties because she found a single grey partridge in a gorse patch when all the others had tried and failed. On the Continent, USA, Canada, etc. all pointing breeds (English again) are expected to retrieve. It is only in this country that the requirement was dropped, possibly because during the Industrial Revolution, the pressure was on to obtain really big bags. Pointers and setters were bred and trained to find birds for the next shot as quickly as possible. (That was later replaced by driven shooting, improvements in shotguns, etc). Retrieving breeds, or human servants, were employed to collect the slain, the priority being to achieve a bigger bag, numericaly speaking, than your neighbour and so get your name in the shooting papers.
 
Dry Rot said:
There was also a requirement for the dog to kill a cat in there somewhere, but I suspect that has since been dropped!

.
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Sounds like that was the Kleeman-Sieger trial or Solms which are held on alternate years. Must be ten years now since the requirement to kill a cat or fox was dropped.
 
Clodagh said:
She stops on the whistle but when I signal her to move on she tends to dart forward, then I stop her again...how do I get a more consistent creep?
Click to expand...

I teach the slow crawl on the lead early on as part of heelwork/loose lead work - the dog initially having to match my pace. This coupled with a 'get on' command for when I do want them to charge on/in gives me the gears I need for (some sort of semblance of) control.
 
gunnergundog said:
I teach the slow crawl on the lead early on as part of heelwork/loose lead work - the dog initially having to match my pace. This coupled with a 'get on' command for when I do want them to charge on/in gives me the gears I need for (some sort of semblance of) control.
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Brilliant, thank you.
 
gunnergundog said:
I teach the slow crawl on the lead early on as part of heelwork/loose lead work - the dog initially having to match my pace. This coupled with a 'get on' command for when I do want them to charge on/in gives me the gears I need for (some sort of semblance of) control.
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Sounds like we do the same but with parallel methods.

Thanks for confirming the existence of the German trials and what they are called.

What is actually more difficult (for me, anyway!) is to teach a pointing dog to go in to flush at speed as the Scandinavians do, but then drop to flush. All their pointing dogs are trained to retrieve. I suspect they train this because their grouse will continue to creep ahead of the dog without flushing properly unless they are pressed -- and pressed hard! Black grouse seem to do this though I have not shot them for many years. I once shot red grouse, black grouse, and caper on the same day over an Irish setter on Speyside, but did not manage to get the ptarmigan! Back then, capercailzie were considered to be vermin! I have a photo somewhere.
 
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