dogs fighting ..help/advice

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hannah87

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As some of you may remember about 6 weeks ago I took on Gizmo, a 7 month old JRT who was too much for his elderly owner who kept him in a tiny cage 99% of his life
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So he came to live me, Louis (1 year old JRT) and my OH.

They had been getting on famously.. in the last few weeks it seems Gizmo has really grown in his self confidence (was rather nervous when we got him).
And now they are starting to have scraps - I think they sound worse than they are but my god its only because they are both so small i can seperate them.
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It usually starts over a toy (there are several toys on the floor for them both), over attention - if someone comes home a fight may start after they ahve both had a stroke - jealously perhaps? We are equal with both of them, same rules apply to both etc. It BEGAN with bones/hide chews - they always seem to want the other ones "thing"..
It does seem to be instigated by Gizmo. For the record, Louis has been castrated, and has never shown any signs of agression in his life. Gizmo has barely been socialized in his former home and has not yet been castrated - we are planning on getting him done but Im thinking this should now be asap? Giz has also shown slight aggression to me when told off - growling/lip curling etc. He also reacts very badly if someone accdiently hurts him - for example I stood (very lightly) on his tail once accidently and he went crazy attacking my foot very aggressively.
Does anyone have any ideas re the fights? I think giz has now found confidence and is getting abit cocky, perhaps challenging Louis wheras before Louis was King in his eyes.
Am abit worried about leaving them on their own together as this is becomeong more frequent, although they have never hurt each other..yet.
Any thoughts/advice? Thanks
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I would get him done as soons as possible.

I would not give dogs unlimited access to toys - toys belong to YOU and YOU decide when they are given and taken away.
Playing or chewing things is a right and a privelige tat you bestow.

At the first sign of aggro I would have the aggressor out. Just quick, calm, firm, out the room, shut the door, leave him to ool off for a few minutes, if he comes back in calmly, praise, if not out again, repeat ad nauseum.

How are you breaking it up now and what are you doing physically?
 
This situation sounds a bit complicated due to Gizmo's lack of socialisation and the aggression involved so it may be worth getting some help from a professional dog trainer. Reacting to these sorts of situations the right way wins half the battle and the dog trainer can talk you through how you should react.

From what I know:

Dog aggression: some fighting is normal for dogs and they will often sort things out themselves, however this is relative to the intensity of the fights, the frequency, the 'fairness' of the cause of the fight, etc. If you think it's too much, you need to identify the instigator and remove him to a quiet room on his own. Say nothing while you do this. Wait a few minutes and then let him out again. This says to the dog "if you behave this way, you are on your own, the group does not want you". Most dogs will get the message after 3-4 times. If it is not safe for you to physically remove the dog, take everyone else (humands and animals) and leave the room instead. It is advisable to keep new friends separate when you are not around to supervise until you are certain they are getting along well together. It would be best to keep them in separate crates (if you are crating them) or separate rooms when you are not there.

Human aggression: this again depends on the circumstances and severity. If Gizmo is possessive of food there are a lot of training exercises you can use to teach him that the food is always yours and you can choose to take it anytime. A good dog training club should be able to help with this (and with dog socialisation issues). If he attacks you, even as a result of you causing him pain, this is more serious and I would strongly recommend getting advice from a professional.

Castration may also help so it would be advisable to get this done as soon as possible.

Best of luck!
 
Thanks for you fast reply.
Ok the toys are down all the time as they are both chewers, I feel if they done have something they are allowed to chew, I cant really tell them off for finding something else to chew..ie their bed!! But Im probably wrong!?

To break it up, have tried yelling but doesnt work. Once i had a glass of water in hand so through that over them which worked! Other times its been a case of grab a dog and seperate. I then am usually in shock and give them both a shouting and tbh they have both recieved a bottom slap a few times.Probably not correct but im being honest. Then seperate for 5 -10 mins. However, as soon as seperated and calmed down they are best mates again, till next time :-(
 
Right, well I would stop having the toys down all the time, and I would also store what you do have and bring in a few new ones to start afresh. You can have a box for them and you bring them out and show them that you are the source of the toys and you also take them away when playtime is over and it is time for resting or exercising.

For when you want to keep them occupied, you can do bits and bobs of training with them, tire them out physically with a nice big walk or give them a stuffed Kong each, they are a bit more interesting and indestructible than other toys.

Isolate the aggressor for longer than ten minutes. Fifteen, half an hour.
I don't know what slapping dogs does, TBH, it is a human reaction and not something they 'identify' with in terms of how their mother would rebuke them.

I agree with BB that seperate crates and getting to a training class/bringing a trainer in might be helpful. Someone used to dealing with scrappy dogs would be ideal.
 
Thanks for your advice.
Its very hard to know how aggressive/intense the fights are. They make alot of noise, but then they do when they play. Never has either one sustained any injury. They have been left along together a few times, but often Gizmo is crated when we go out - because he is happy in his crate, and Louis goes to sleep in his bed next to crate.
With the human aggression, Giz is not difficult over food. He will only eat when given the go ahead and i can take things off him etc and he is very polite.
TBH i dont think he had recived either praise or discipline in his former home. He certainly did not know the difference between my happy praising voice and my BAD DOG voice.
 
Ok , I shall do as you say re the toys. Sounds sensible and I guess with me trying to solve one problem (chewing other things) I am creating another.
They are both given lots of exercise - big walk or 2 smaller ones a day.
I shall isolate the agressor longer also. However what would you suggest if I dont know who started it/ it was both of them? Just seperate them regardless, isolate them both?

Re giving them a slap, I realise this isnt the best thing to do but like you say human reaction.
 
I'd put them both out a different door.

But ideally you need to be able to spot the warning signs - it needs to be before a full grown scrap - you will probably know by this time, the warning signs, low growl, wrinkled nose, hackles up - then IN and get them apart - mid grizzle is often too late. I would step in with my BIG MASSIVE SCARY VOICE or A BIG LOUD NOISE! at that stage but if, as you say, they are ignoring voice, in and get one or both of them out at the first sign of aggro. Once they are going, it is harder, they are zoned out and they often are past the point of knowing why and for what they are being put out.
 
The major problem is there often is no warning signs. They go from 0-60 in 1 second. They will be happily playing tug of war, both having a fuss/brush/stroke or something and all of a sudden fly at each other. With the scraps over bones/chews there are signs and I step in and they loose the bones and are seperated.
It really has only been the last 2 weeks and the rest of the time they love each other, sleep next to each other, play etc.
I think the first step is getting Giz done.
 
The more I think about it, my theory is that: Louis was "boss" when Giz first came to us, Giz was happy being submissive and had very little confidence and followed Louis lead on everything. Now i think Giz has developed, become much more confident and is now questioning Louis role as alpha perhaps? Especially with Louis being castrated and Giz not. He is also now at 8 months reaching sexual maturity? Have booked him in for the chop next week!
Have just walked them, came back and gave them a toy each. Scrap started 10 mins later so seperated, Giz into bathroom and toys away. 15 mins later let Giz out who was then very quiet and calm. Will keep up the toys are MINE and then seperation thing, just hope it works!
 
My bitches have always had a big basket full of gnaw bones available at all times indoors, however though I one way give them the same amount of attention and so on, I make sure that they know who I have decided is highest in rank. First bitch gets attention first when I come home, gets her food first, gets to walk out through the front door first (after myself), gets to pick gnaw bone first when they get new ones etc.

If they try to sort out their rank amongst themselves when the young ones mature, I step in, pick up the bitch highest in rank (whether by holding her or placing her somewhere where she is higher up than the other bitch, either way being higher is a signal of higher rank), cuddles her and gives her some extra yummy treats, while completely ignoring the bitch lower in rank.


Perhaps it seems unfair, but it clearly signals who I favour and that there is no point in them trying to sort out anything amongst themselves because I decide their rank, period.
 
Very interesting, thanks for your post.
I have heard very conflicting advice on the topic of dogs rank.
So if I were to follow your theory of I decide their rank because I AM leader? Would Louis be top dog because he was originally?
Im slightly concerned that any jelousy would be made worse by giving attention to Louis first, as this is were the issues seem to start?
 
I am the leader and I don't want my bitches to decide their rank amongst themselves, it makes my life easier if I decide their rank for them and they simply have to learn to accept that that is how it is in my home. That is how I personally views it and it works for me and others I know about, that said, it maybe doesn't work or suits all other dog owners.




To take three of my now late dogs (all sadly dead), my first dog was a Norwegian Buhund, Nessie, second was a Smooth Collie, Raya and third dog was another Norwegian Buhund, Humla. Their rank ended up being due to their age, oldest first, then next oldest and youngest at the ''bottom''.

Nessie had a slight HD problem, managed by acupuncture but Humla could still tell that Nessie was not the fittest of dogs, one of Raya's hind legs grew a little askew when she was young, so Humla saw that she was not the fittest either. Humla would not have minded being first dog and I could tell she did not understand how I could favour them in rank before her, yet she never tried anything really. Maybe there was one time when I suspected she tried something with Nessie, so to be on the safe side, I did what I described above, as I recall, I put up Nessie on our dinner table (usually a 100% dog free zone) and fed her some cheese. Humla still could not understand how Nessie and Raya could have higher rank than herself but we were persistent with our treatment of them and nothing more ever happened, she accepted that I had decided their rank.




However when Nessie died, I kept Raya on second place and ''promoted'' Humla to first bitch. It was all my decision, I simply began putting on harness and leash on her first, letting her go out through door first, I greeted her first when I came home etc. Though they were both older ladies when Nessie died, so they had since long ago learned to accept that I did what I pleased and since Raya was more food orientated than Humla, I sometimes gave Raya her food first.




My advice is that you decide who you think is really most suitable as first dog of your two dogs, both my Buhunds was suitable as first bitch due to their good stable temper (Raya's was good too but weaker), so I let age decide, whoever you decide to have as first dog, be consistently in your treatment, especially now in the beginning.

This is after all a forum and it is all about what you write and how I interpret what you have written, but I'm inclined to think that what can be perceived as jealousy comes from unclear rank. One dog wants to have highest rank and doesn't feel it is confirmed and thereby tries to take control of the situation/acts jealous. Is it not better then, that you step in and lay down the rules? Decide that one is first dog and the other one is second dog, if second ranked dog objects by acting jealous/trying to demand your attention when you are cuddling first dog, ignore him. He has no right to question your judgement!



I know of an owner with 3 unneutered male Rhodesian Ridgeback and no problems with rank. She described it as that she and her husband is ranked 1 and 2, first Ridgeback have rank 9, second Ridgeback have rank 21 and the third Ridgeback have rank 37. The point is that the Ridgeback with rank 37, first have to advance to rank 36, then 35 etc, until it reaches 22 and could even think about trying to bring up any rank issues directly with the second Ridgeback, who has rank 21. Which will never happen because it is the owner who have decided their rank!

She makes it clear which rank they have by being clear and consistently in her treatment of them. First dog is allowed to go out through the door first, second dog has to sit/stand and wait on its turn = owner saying that XX can go out now. When first dog gets its food, the other food bowl isn't put down as fast as possible, second dog has to do exactly what the first dog did, pay attention to its owner and wait for permission to eat.

I don't think it is unfair, e.g. they are still fed at the same time, they just doesn't get to begin to eat on the exact same time.

Good luck whatever you try.
 
Thankyou so much for your detailed answer. That is really very clear and I can now see how this would work.
I am going to speak to OH later and show him this post. But I think this could be a very good way of sorting out this problem. I firmly belive Gizmo is trying to become boss now he is Mr confident , added to the fact he is still entire (not for much longer).
However I think Louis should be leader after me and OH. He is older, has been in the home much longer and is generally a smarter dog than Gizmo. He was defintaley the boss before the recent scraps and now its become a little unclear, probably not helped by me.
Thanks again!!
 
Just because it's late and im feeling tired and moody...im going to throw a "I never make any dog higher in rank than another"
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*runs from FLH*
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BUT Some people do stand by this practice, I never do , as I find it can create problems within a pack, esp when u have a large 10 strong one like me
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(I am trying to reduce that number)
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Basically there is me, the big boss lady
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then OH
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then dogs, all equal to the next, I never have any fight issues and I have a good mixture of dogs and bitches. (I neer want to encourage a challenger) instead I want them to feel if they step out of line the only consiquence is from me and thats all they have to worry about.
Food/toys/chews are all things that would naturally cause a fight as suggested, they should be fed one in the crate and one out or supervised and reprimanded accordingly by you, if u are stroking and one growls or instigates a fight, send it away with a firm reprimand as in your voice.
The advice u have is fine and I agree, but never part them for two long and never leave them completely apart always use the crate.......many people make the mistake of parting dogs completely when trying to tackel aggression issues and this literally heightens the issue 10 fold.

I know im awkward but im bored and past the tired stage.
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Well I did say it wasn't for everyone but...


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To be 100% equal all 10 of them should get their food put down in front of them/be allowed to begin to eat simultaneously, all 10 should be able to go out through the front/back door at the same time, all 10 gets their collar/harness and leads put on simultaneously...



I agree that the more dogs you have, the more likely that they decide their rank amongst themselves but only because you treat all 10 as if they have the same rank, in a way the goal for both ''your'' and ''mine'' method is to teach them that we does not accept that they settle their rank amongst themselves by what we could see as fights/quarrels.

I've been on a lecture by Renée Sjöberg, she has e.g. written a book with a title that in direct translation = Dog language, ethology in words and pictures. She has been photographing dog meetings between dogs that never had met prior to the photographing event (which was not an easy task to organise) and all the dogs made/tried to make a rank estimate of each other when first seeing each other. However, how they treated/reacted on the information was different, some was really evident but some dogs have a more relaxed and friendly reaction towards the information, though it does not mean they do not notice the information, their body language revealed they did, they just did not make a big deal out of it
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So I know that my bitches might have a slightly different rank amongst themselves e.g. when playing together, than my rank for them <u>but</u> the important thing for me is that the result is that they know that I, as their leader, does not accept that they try to change rank by open rank fights/quarrels amongst themselves.
 
I totally agree......everyone has their methods and each do work effectivly for the individual situation.

Just to add, mine do get fed together, literally the bowl are spalayed all over the floor and which ever direction the bolwl goes in literally that dog eats it, I never get 2 going to the same bowl, I never have any food scraps, the kennel dogs are fed the same the bowls are slid in their direction and they eat in the same circle from their own bowl, and the door, I literally open it and they all make a run for the van, OH makes them all sit and then he will say "go on then" to which they all run together , Im to lazy I just open the door and they jumpo straight in the van, I only makes them sit if they are going on a lead first, then I literally randomly place a slip lead over each dogs head
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I totally get you thoug I have covered behavioural studies with both scenarios, and both have worked.
 
But if your door opening is not big enough for all 10 to go through at the same time, then either if not everyone is at the door when you open it, the ones who was closest goes out first, but if they are all standing at the door when it opens, is not likely that their individual rank amongst themselves influence how they position themselves around the door opening and thus are amongst the first, middle or last ones going out through the door?

Though it does not need to be an absolute rule even if everyone is waiting at the door, e.g. if someone really needs to go out for a pee, a more dominant dog would not be bothered by allowing the dog in ''need'' to go out before him/her but otherwise, maybe it is not always as completely random how they go out through the door as it might look?




My point being, is that only because you treat them as if they have the same rank, they probably have an individual rank amongst themselves, at the same time as accepting that you as their leader treat them as having the same rank. That is what I tried to explain when I said that my bitches might have a slightly different rank amongst themselves when they e.g. play together but they accept that I rank them as I do.


Either way, I think we agree about that regardless if an owner chooses to decide to treat their dogs as if they all have the same rank or if an owner chooses to treat them according to that they have different rank, the whole point is that it should relieve the tensions within the group and that they accept that we, as their leaders, does not tolerate rank fights/quarrels. As long as it works for us, it really isn't important which method one uses.
 
Really helping reading both your guys answers!!

Update: had no fights yesterday evening or today.
Have been giving toys once in a while for a short period and taking them back before any tension occurs.
Feeding Louis first, gave him toy first and allowing him out first (after me). Also been crating Giz when we go out and they each get a chew at this point which is taken back off them when im back and Giz is let out of crate. Atmosphere seems calmer, OH agrees this is the best route for our dogs as we both now beleive the problem is Giz challenging Louis and possibly myself who is "leader" in our pack - hence the slight aggression when told off.
Giz curled his lips at me last night when I brushed his backend with my foot (accidently) and he was picked up by scruff removed from room for 10 mins. He seemed very calm and submissive when allowed to rejoin us.
 
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