Dogs 'squaring up'

[Hormonal Filly]

I've got 3 spaniels, one bitch and two entire males. The boys.. one is a Cocker, age 7 and a Springer, age 4.

They all get on well, lick each others mouths, groom and play together but (happens more often recently) the boys suddenly start growling at each other and 'squaring' up to each other. Hackles up.

They wag tails, but look like they're about to fight. Luckily its never progressed into that, within a couple of minutes they're friends again wagging tails.

I'm not sure how to manage it when it happens, it always happens by me so assuming its to do with attention or being close to me? I've shut them in the garden together and walked off, they stop or shut them in the 'dog room' and leave them and they also stop.

Is this the correct way to handle them when this happens? Any thoughts?

 

[Hobo2]

At the risk of getting shot down. Cutting their balls off should settle things down!! It does sound very hormonal what they are doing and would be horrible if it escalated. Sounds like you are doing the right thing at the moment until you decide what to do.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Pretty normal male behaviour, especially when there is a bitch around. They are coming up to the age where older dog is going to be challenged as pack leader, and he won't relinquish that position without a fight. Afraid I agree with Hobo2 - and both of them need the chop, otherwise it will skew the pack dynamic even more.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Pretty normal male behaviour, especially when there is a bitch around. They are coming up to the age where older dog is going to be challenged as pack leader, and he won't relinquish that position without a fight. Afraid I agree with Hobo2 - and both of them need the chop, otherwise it will skew the pack dynamic even more.

Thank you both for your thoughts, makes sense. I will continue to manage it for now. The Cocker has allergies and joint issues which I know being entire benefits that and the Springer is health tested and used as a stud.

It might not help the bitch is due in season.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It might not help the bitch is due in season.

And there is the root of your problem. Do you want to breed from the bitch? If not, I would consider spaying her.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'd start telling them firmly to knock it off before I would start cutting off bits of their anatomy. I'd be reluctant to put them out together without supervision in case it does escalate.

 

[skinnydipper]

Could somebody explain why they think cutting the dogs' balls off is the answer?

 

[blackcob]

IME with a relative's spaniels, at similar ages, this scenario escalated fairly rapidly to outright fighting and they had to be carefully managed and not together unsupervised from that point onwards. If you can catch it at the building stage and tell them to knock it off you can generally extinguish it. With hindsight I'm not sure castration achieved a lot, perhaps reduced the frequency if not the intensity.

 

[Clodagh]

Don’t let them! If they are together never leave them unsupervised. If they start I’d do my Caesar Milan ‘tch’ noise and knee them if I was close enough.
I don’t allow mouth licking, I’m not a behaviourist but Ffee will do it and the other bitches hate it. Her and Scout do lick each others muzzles and seem to enjoy it. It always looks sub aggressive to me, when she does it to Pen. (Would appreciate anyone explaining what they are actually doing).
I know CM much hated but that noise, to mine, is the equivalent of a loud ‘no’.

 

[JBM]

You need to step in and show them what’s acceptable behaviour
I have 5 males (4 entire 1 was chopped for suspected cancer in that region) and 1 bitch who came into season twice (big breed waiting for her to stop growing)
If anyone is showing undesirable behaviour they’re removed from the pack
Placed outside or in another room where they can’t see the rest of them. Like a child time out
They’re going to chop and change pack dynamics daily but you need to be the one in charge so fights don’t break out
The neutered one was the oldest and pack leader and dynamics were all over the place worse after his neutering.

 

[Clodagh]

They’re going to chop and change pack dynamics daily but you need to be the one in charge so fights don’t break out
The neutered one was the oldest and pack leader and dynamics were all over the place worse after his neutering.

This too, pack dynamics to me are irrelevant as I’m the big boss so no one else gets to make decisions about any of that hierarchy stuff. What I say goes and they don’t get a vote. We’ve always been like that with many multiples of dogs who have had to travel and work together.

 

[skinnydipper]

Her and Scout do lick each others muzzles and seem to enjoy it.

Social bonding. Plus it feels good, when they are licking they are releasing endorphins

 

[twiggy2]

They will probably settle when the bitch is ouy of season but i would still step in and tell them to knock it off.
I wouldnt shut them in or out together if tensions are high in case it kicks off.
I wouldnt rush to castrate but if you did you would be better to castrate just the least assertive dog then you make that dog less of a threat to the other one due to the lack of hormones.
We have up to 4 uncastrated males and 5 entire bitches at any one time, some are bred from and not others depending on their work ability etc, we wouldnt tolerate any fighting or squaring up and its doesnt really happen but we do allow the more assertive dog to hold that place.

 

[skinnydipper]

They wag tails, but look like they're about to fight

Wagging tails doesn't always mean happy dogs.

Tail position, high, low or middle. Fast or slow. To the left or right. All mean different things.

 

[planete]

Any hint of aggression, even just a dirty look, and mine would get told off and sent to their beds. I do not know CM 's voice but I can do the voice of doom ok.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thanks all really helpful.

Wagging tails doesn't always mean happy dogs.

Tail position, high, low or middle. Fast or slow. To the left or right. All mean different things.

Yes, sorry I do know that. Lots say waggy tail = happy but that isn’t correct.

You need to step in and show them what’s acceptable behaviour
I have 5 males (4 entire 1 was chopped for suspected cancer in that region) and 1 bitch who came into season twice (big breed waiting for her to stop growing)
If anyone is showing undesirable behaviour they’re removed from the pack
Placed outside or in another room where they can’t see the rest of them. Like a child time out
They’re going to chop and change pack dynamics daily but you need to be the one in charge so fights don’t break out
The neutered one was the oldest and pack leader and dynamics were all over the place worse after his neutering.

Thanks JBM. I’ve stepped in before, used my body to make both dogs separate (pushing my knee into them) and a quirk sharp AH but it doesn’t work. They go into that phase where they can’t think of anything apart from growling.

I’ll try splitting them when it happens and put whoever starts it in ‘time out’..

They really get on well the rest of the time, like brothers. The cocker is the pack leader and the Springer is actually a wimp, I’m not sure if the growling starts because the Springer feels vulnerable or maybe he is now pushing boundaries as he’s covered 3 bitches and just turned 4.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Thanks all really helpful.


Yes, sorry I do know that. Lots say waggy tail = happy but that isn’t correct.


Thanks JBM. I’ve stepped in before, used my body to make both dogs separate (pushing my knee into them) and a quirk sharp AH but it doesn’t work. They go into that phase where they can’t think of anything apart from growling.

I’ll try splitting them when it happens and put whoever starts it in ‘time out’..

They really get on well the rest of the time, like brothers. The cocker is the pack leader and the Springer is actually a wimp, I’m not sure if the growling starts because the Springer feels vulnerable or maybe he is now pushing boundaries as he’s covered 3 bitches and just turned 4.

That sounds as if you need to get in there a bit sooner. We kept 2 entire dogs, father and son, with 3 entire bitches and never had any aggression.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

And there is the root of your problem. Do you want to breed from the bitch? If not, I would consider spaying her.

She is too young to spay at the moment, weirdly when she is in season we don’t have any issues. We’ve moved into my parents 4 weeks ago due to house renovations (parents have a spayed collie bitch) and it’s suddenly happening more often.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

@Pearlsasinger lots of friends have working spaniel packs with no issues. Ours all work, definitely get enough mental and physical exercise.

Will go around with eagle eyes and try to step in before it progresses. I really don’t want to neuter or split them up.

 

[druid]

If you can't say "knock that off" or similar and have 2 dogs of a pretty biddable breed leave each other alone you aren't really in control of either one, imo.

Ours have the occasional grumble (inevitably started by a terrier) but the would never be allowed get to the point of squaring off.

I have 4 entries males and 5 bitches here (spaniels and terriers) and cross words just aren't allowed.

I'd not allow them together unsupervised, never around the girl in season and also popping them on their bed/crate/mat if they can't interact nicely to give some space between them.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

never around the girl in season

Always separated when the bitch comes into season.

Thanks all, will start to manage it slightly differently and be more assertive.

 

[Clodagh]

She is too young to spay at the moment, weirdly when she is in season we don’t have any issues. We’ve moved into my parents 4 weeks ago due to house renovations (parents have a spayed collie bitch) and it’s suddenly happening more often.

I would guess dog number 4 and a strange house has caused insecurity to get worse?

 

[EventingMum]

I'm no dog expert but I'm not sure castration will help. My son's dog spent a lot of time (7+ years) in our house alongside our dogs, all were neutered and got on well. All of a sudden he and our eldest dog started niggling each other and it quickly escalated to fighting to the point where they now have to be kept completely separate.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

She is too young to spay at the moment, weirdly when she is in season we don’t have any issues. We’ve moved into my parents 4 weeks ago due to house renovations (parents have a spayed collie bitch) and it’s suddenly happening more often.

The relocation has most likely caused some stress which is showing in their jockeying for position

 

[Jenko109]

I have a bitch who is a bit like this.

If the energy level gets too high in the house, she can get a bit rowdy and display the same stiff, high tail wag, ready to ruck stance.

Bit different for me though. It generally happens as a result of my partner being a prat with them and geeing them up too much. So although I do correct the bitch, I correct the partner more

 

[Hormonal Filly]

They've done it maybe twice in the last 3 weeks, big improvement!

Thank you all for your advice