dogs suddenly fighting

[misst]

Sorry this will be a bit long..

I have 2 dogs a male terrier cross who is about 6 and Ruby who is a JRT and 2 years old. My daughter has a 4 year old JRT x Daxie. Her dog is not well socialised (a rehome to her 18 months ago) but she has been working on this and Fudge is much better with strange dogs now but can still be suddenly reactive for no obvious reasons at times. She has never ever shown aggression to my dogs.

All 3 dogs have always been friends together and Ruby and Fudge have been really playful and shared toys, laps, treats, beds - everything. The pecking order is my boy, then my daughters dog then my Ruby. All dogs are spayed or nutered. All are good with people and my 2 are good with other dogs. They have never had a cross word between them until yesterday. We dog sit for each other and the dogs have moved between us happily if any of us goes away. They even shared a kennel room when we all went away together.

Yesterday out of the blue Fudge turned on Ruby. They were going out of the door in the hall into the lobby for a walk with us all. This was not terrier play or warning - she latched on hard under Rubys neck. We literally had to prise her off. Luckily there are no wounds but I don't know how. We were very shocked and Ruby was very distressed but we decided it was a freak happening perhaps caused by dogs trying to get in front of each other and escalating. On the walk Fudge tried to get Ruby to play but Ruby stuck next to us the entire time. Usually they run off lead on the common unless other dogs are around. Ruby slowly gained confidence and met a dog she knew and played happily with that dog.

Back at the house everyone settled and slept on sofas/beds of their choice. They all behaved as usual and ignored each other most of the time.
We have patio doors onto the garden and all of them will bark at squirrels etc if they see them. My boy spotted something and ran to the door followed by Fudge, Ruby ran over to see what was happening and Fudge attacked again. They were separated. Ruby then sat on my husbands lap and Fudge was on the other sofa with my daughter. She later came over and tried to sit next to Ruby and my husband but we kept her on the floor (nicely) for a while. Eventually she seemed very calm so we allowed her to sit next to my husband. After sitting nicely she began to put her head over Ruby in a dominant way and curled her lip. She was removed and my daughter took her home - which spoiled our weekend plans for all of us..

So my question is Why? The only thing I can think of is Ruby is not a puppy anymore so it is now the dynamics of 2 bitches rather than a bitch and a puppy?
Ruby is such a sweet natured little dog she has never ever shown any agression to dogs or people, we can take food out of her mouth and she is very confident and affectionate.
My male dog completely ignored all of the interaction between the girls.
The dogs are extremely well matched in size and energy etc. They were definitely not fighting over toys or food.
Does this mean we cannot mix them again ever? I am meeting up outdoors for a walk on Friday as they seemed fine outdoors but not sure what to do about indoor meets? It would be such a shame for us as a family not to be able to mix in the way that we have done up to now.

I genuinely believe my dog did nothing to provoke this and although Fudge is a lovely little dog with people she is usually on a lead on walks if unknown dogs are around as she has been known to be agressive in the past for no obvious reason. She does have separation anxiety which was one of the reasons she was with a rescue. She had 3 previous homes by the age or 3 so not had a good start.

All suggestions welcome.

 

[AmyMay]

Two bitches. Little fudge throwing her weight around and poor old Ruby ( the bottom of the pecking order in her own house ?) getting it in the neck.

Your house is Ruby’s house - not Fudges. She needs to understand that.

Edt. My little dog Daisy is top dog in any situation. But if she asserts herself when visiting friends with their dog she’s swiftly told off by me, it’s absolutely not on.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

What Fudge needs to understand is that if she doesn't follow the house rules, the world will fall in on her. It's not Ruby's house, it's yours - YOU are in charge and what you say goes!
I would have a crate available and at the first hint of aggression, Fudge is put in it. If you miss the first sign and Fudge gets hold of Ruby, grab the sscruff of her neck and shake like her mum would have done (not hard enough to damage her).She absolutely must understand that she is not the boss.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Bitch on bitch attack. IME I'm afraid to say that it will likely only get worse.

I can only suggest crating Fudge when she comes to yours.

 

[misst]

Thank you both. Yes she was scruffed and shaken the 2nd and 3rd attempts. My fear was that she will never be able to mix with my 2 again but it sounds as if maybe it's been creeping up on us and we have missed the signs? Ruby is so sweet and her and my boy are very good together. When I say pecking order it is not always obvious but Fudge does not attempt to remove toys from Moti but can take from Ruby so I assume she is aware that he might snap if she tried it. I have crates and plenty of space in the house to manage it if needed. I also think she must not be "up" on anything if Ruby is already there? I have never really had to worry about this and we had had quite a few dogs in the family and never had a problem :-(
I will have a chat with my daughter - Fudge is a bit of an only child (they have no children) and can be demanding of time/attention and I think maybe gets away with it at home.

 

[misst]

Bitch on bitch attack. IME I'm afraid to say that it will likely only get worse.

I can only suggest crating Fudge when she comes to yours.

This was my fear :-( . I won't be able to crate her full time at mine as she has never been crated and has separation anxiety. I can keep them in separate rooms easily enough though if needed. Is it likely to continue out of door ie. on walks?

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I am afraid that I also believe this will only continue to escalate. I have persevered in a similar situation until I ended up with two terriers, both requiring urgent trips to the vets for quite serious throat and neck wounds. I had other dogs at the time (collies) but it was only ever the one dominant terrier bitch attacking the other terrier.

Eventually, not long after this, during a discussion with my vet we decided the much more dominant bitch needed rehoming to be the only dog in a household. It was a huge piece of luck that his mother was looking for an adult terrier to replace her little companion dog who had recently been PTS.

Perfect ending but I still consider that somehow I failed to prevent it escalating and I am still not sure to this day what exactly more I could have done. My vet had warned us a few months before the last really serious fight that it would only get worse, sadly he was right.

 

[Clodagh]

‘Dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights.’
I’m afraid I don’t think you will ever be able to leave them to interact, from now on in your house visitor on a lead and no toys, chews or food around.

ETA I see no point at all in shaking the aggressor once it is all over, apart from making you feel better (which I’m not knocking!) it won’t make any difference to future attacks.

Also eta… no need for your daughter to not come over, but dog needs keeping under close control.

 

[misst]

Thank you Mrs Jingle and Clodagh this was what I feared. I certainly don't want my girl to suffer. It is such a shame as affects all of us and means we won't be able to have Fudge to stay when my daughter goes away which has always been the way. Fortunately she is the only dog in her own home so no problems there. She is a lovely loving little dog in all other ways which makes it worse really.

 

[Clodagh]

This was my fear :-( . I won't be able to crate her full time at mine as she has never been crated and has separation anxiety. I can keep them in separate rooms easily enough though if needed. Is it likely to continue out of door ie. on walks?

You may be ok on neutral ground, but if one finds a good smell or something to eat or you are going through a gateway I think it could happen. I’d keep one on a lead at all times, you can take turns.

 

[Sandstone1]

Shaking will do no good at all. If two bitches fight its likely to get worse, you will have to be aware of whats going on at all times. Have some way of keeping them separate.

 

[misst]

Thanks all. Not what I wanted to hear but kind of what I expected. I will update after Fridays walk. We will be super aware and very very careful.

 

[AmyMay]

Bitch on bitch attack. IME I'm afraid to say that it will likely only get worse.

I can only suggest crating Fudge when she comes to yours.

I wouldn’t expect it to get worse, providing it’s managed. That will likely mean no toys, and a slightly tougher stance with Fudge.

 

[misst]

I wouldn’t expect it to get worse, providing it’s managed. That will likely mean no toys, and a slightly tougher stance with Fudge.

Fudge is a bit spoiled so I will have a firm word with my daughter LoL she's probably reading this now! She is a typical small dog who had a bad start and the mix of daxie with JRT doesn't help - very very terrier-like at times. Having said that we are a terrier family so not really concerned about noise and rough play usually so that is why I wonder if perhaps I've missed signs it was escalating and could have nipped it in the bud sooner.... What ever happens they are all loved and we will manage things for all of them it's just sad when they were such besties and always so thrilled to be together.

 

[skinnydipper]

The issue at the door when going out and the squirrel alert sound like redirected aggression due to over arousal.

Starting with the problem when going out. Could you teach door manners and self control so that it is not so chaotic?

When you are putting collars and leads on if a dog is getting over excited and barky, stop what you are doing, you sit down, nobody is going anywhere until there is calm. Repeat until they get the message.

Teach each of them manners at the door, separately at first. At the door, ask for a sit and then ask to wait, you go to open the door, if the dog tries to barge through you close the door. Repeat as many times as necessary until the dog can sit and you can open the door wide and the dog doesn't move until you give your release command - such as OK.

 

[skinnydipper]

What is it like at other times, such as meal times?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

‘Dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights.’
I’m afraid I don’t think you will ever be able to leave them to interact, from now on in your house visitor on a lead and no toys, chews or food around.

ETA I see no point at all in shaking the aggressor once it is all over, apart from making you feel better (which I’m not knocking!) it won’t make any difference to future attacks.

Also eta… no need for your daughter to not come over, but dog needs keeping under close control.

I wouldn't scruff after it was all over, it would be immediately I had managed to disengage the teeth and may well be part of that process. The aggressor would be left in no doubt whatsoever that I was displeased.
OP if you have a crate in the room where your dogs are going to psend most time, there will be no need for Fudge to experience separation anxiety. I would think that the aggression is part of her lack of confidence, so you/daughter may need to work on that. I would also suggest to adaughter that she needs to make sure that Fudge isn't 'top dog' in her household.It sounds as if she needs the security of knowing that she isn't the decision maker.

 

[Marchtime]

Fudge's mum here... she is spoilt but at home she does has firm rules about doors, food, etc. She's happy to be fed last and has never shown any food aggression. I think the key here is that the things she values highly are squirrels, people (especially my Dad) and squeaky toys. We can remove toys easily but would need to be hyper aware of the other two.
It's such a shame because her socialisation has improved so much especially over the past 9 months. She used to bark at any dog even on the other side of the street but now calmly walks past and is now only reactive if a dog bounds over which we're still working on.

 

[misst]

To answer some questions Skinnydipper - it seems ok the rest of the time, they have shared bowls before now! I don't encourage it but it has happened. None of them guards food or toys.
The door thing - yes I think it is a trigger but easy enough to solve. They might be noisy terriers but they are reasonably well trained. They are quick learners too. I think we can manage doorways and windows without too much bother and a little bit of forward thinking and training.

PaS again I think this is all true about her confidence. I hate to make her sound like a nasty dog - she is very cute and small and a diva and I think also a bit of a brat. I am firmer with mine than my daughter is with hers so you are probably right - she is top person in her own house. I will try a crate in the room if needed, she might appreciate a "safe space". She was scruffed hard both times after the initial attack and removed from the situation immediately. She definitely would have associated it with her own behavour as it was all instantaneous.

 

[misst]

Oh S - I think she has you wrapped round her little finger She is a darling though. We'll work on it with all of them.

 

[CorvusCorax]

QR sounds like doors are the flashpoint.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I also urge caution with scruffing, you need to break the behaviour when they're thinking about it and that requires never giving them the benefit of the doubt and watching body language. You don't know what frame of mind the dog is in and it can be like pouring petrol on the fire.

 

[skinnydipper]

Deleted.

 

[twiggy2]

I would ditch the scruffing, dogs need you to be calm and in control, it's really not easy all the time, you being so cross will also have a negative effect on Ruby.
Is there always 2 of you walking the dogs? If so taking the dogs out of separate doors, keeping leads in separate rooms and separating the dogs before any signals of a walk are given may work to reduce tensions.
I would keep Fudge on a lead when walking for now and try some distraction training before things over stimulate her, squirrels for example.
I would also keep a light house line on her and be very vigilant when she is in the house, any sign of any behaviour you don't want then stand up get the line and walk her to a crate and pop her in till everyone seems settled. At any time you cannot give them full attention pop either fudge or ruby away in the crate.
The other way is to make sure that one or other of them are always in the crate, they will need a crate each so you are not putting them into each other's space as that may add to tension.

 

[misst]

That all sounds doable twiggy and I hadn't thought of a short house line - that would also avoid putting a hand into the middle of any trouble. There are almost always 2 or 3 of us walking so plenty of people around. We will be super vigilant over the next few weeks. I get what you say about the scruffing - I know it is not ideal but it was a bit of a shock to us all that it was happening. The crating - I can crate Ruby if needed but I can also pop them into seperate rooms. There are beds in all areas for the dogs and they are used to being in all the areas. It's not ideal I know but I think if things don't get worse and we manage as suggested we can do it. My OH is home a lot too so if Fudge is here there are usually at least two adults in the house and walking the dogs. They seemed to be ok in the garden as well yesterday - just sniffing around independently as usual.
We are going to meet up on Friday in a neutral area for a walk and if needed everyone can be on lead. Hopefully outdoor reintroductions should help and we will arrive and leave in separate cars.

 

[Clodagh]

I think you’ll get used to managing it, I have four bitches and am just always a bit watchful about flashpoints. Pen can be a moo when they get in the pick up as she’s excited so it is sit, wait, one at a time.
I blew it once and her and Ffee had a handbag moment and now I’m much more careful. It just becomes second nature, you’ll be fine.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Separate, have a crate handy. As mentioned, remove all toys.

 

[misst]

We've just had a chat on the phone and we have a plan and a way forward I think. Thank you all so much I was feeling very down but a bit of perspective has helped and some practical ideas to employ . Fudge is such a sweet dog with people and she had a rotten start so she is a bit of a work in progress with other dogs in general but has come a long way in the last 28 months. There are lots of adults around most of the time and plenty of space so fingers crossed. They won't be left unsupervised -ever!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I'm sure you will be able manage them all. Just be aware that if they haven't seen one another for several days, there could be high excitement. We get that, if the pup hasn't been up for a few days. They don't fight but they do get silly!

Just to be clear I would grab the scruff to separate them, all in the moment

 

[misst]

PaS that is exactly what we did the 2nd and 3rd times.

Will let everyone know how it goes on Friday