Alec Swan
...
Yes, I did see it. I wonder if they'll be brave enough to show the handlers and pupils on a 500 bird day, and in the thick of it!! It'll be entertaining, I expect!
Alec.
Dogs: Their Secret Lives episode 2 aggression
- Thread starter Finlib
- Start date
Yes, I did see it. I wonder if they'll be brave enough to show the handlers and pupils on a 500 bird day, and in the thick of it!! It'll be entertaining, I expect!
Alec.
Dobiegirl
Well-Known Member
Yes, I did see it. I wonder if they'll be brave enough to show the handlers and pupils on a 500 bird day, and in the thick of it!! It'll be entertaining, I expect!
Alec.
Nothing as mundane as that, Great Crested Newts and Bats are not your average pheasant so I would imagine different methods were called for, they also gave lots of praise, its obviously working so you have to grant them that.
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
In Shooting Times a couple of weeks ago in the Q&A bit someone asked about trainin gand was told clicker training was slow to catch on but was absolutely the way forward so attititudes are changing.
Alec Swan
...
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
LOL Alec, made me laugh too. I can't see me tryinmg it tbh, I would never cooridinate clicker and treat and keep my eyes on the ball (dog) at the same time. Will continue praise for good work here. 
Burtyler
Active Member
Like everything new to us handling a clicker takes practise.
By the way it is often mainly used when teaching a behaviour and then once the behaviour is learnt a verbal marker (praise word) can be used.
The big advantage of a clicker is it is a quick, clear and consistent marker......plus it reaches the dogs brain (in the amygdallia?) faster than the spoken word!
Not clicker training but this may be of interest........
https://positively.com/community/positively-contributors/thomas-aaron/
By the way it is often mainly used when teaching a behaviour and then once the behaviour is learnt a verbal marker (praise word) can be used.
The big advantage of a clicker is it is a quick, clear and consistent marker......plus it reaches the dogs brain (in the amygdallia?) faster than the spoken word!
Not clicker training but this may be of interest........
https://positively.com/community/positively-contributors/thomas-aaron/
gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
Yes, I did see it. I wonder if they'll be brave enough to show the handlers and pupils on a 500 bird day, and in the thick of it!! It'll be entertaining, I expect!
Alec.
You need to spend a day out with Helen Phillips and her husband Chris! Helen wrote Clicker Gundog....11-12 years ago now, so this is not a new application of the science!.....her first clicker dog was Thorn, a Viz, who worked as a very competent picker-upper on driven shoots. Previous dogs were cross-over dogs - dogs trained traditionally then moved over to clicker; there have however been many dogs subsequently.....including springers. Helen is probably not a 100% clicker purist, but has proven that there is a role for clicker in the gundog world.
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
Or this lady! http://www.dogsforlife.co.uk/index.aspx
Malbbe
Member
Clickers are old hat, very old hat, probably why some think they are new is because the idea is a selling point by the recent (15 years or so) development of COMMERCIAL dog trainers, more often selling themselves as 'reward' or 'positive' trainers & 'behaviourists'...IT'S ALL SALES TALK.
As regards clickers, they used to be known as >'crickets'<, they have been around as a fidget toy since appx 1920's/30's -used by US marines as a communication device in WW2 &, back to dogs,......In 1951, B F Skinner (founder of modern behaviourist psychology) wrote a paper titled 'How To Teach Animals'.......Skinners sentence is directly relevant to clickers (crickets) & 'supposed' 'commercial modern dog training' is below (paste).
B F Skinner
"For a conditioned reinforcer you need a clear signal which can be given instantly and to
which the subject is sure to respond. It may be a noise or a flash of light. A whistle is not
recommended because of the time it takes to draw a breath before blowing it. A visual signal like a
wave of the arm may not always be seen by the animal. A convenient signal is a rap on a table with a
small hard object or the noise of a high-pitched device such as a "cricket."
Ref
B F Skinner, 'How To Teach Animals', Harvard, 1951.
.
As regards clickers, they used to be known as >'crickets'<, they have been around as a fidget toy since appx 1920's/30's -used by US marines as a communication device in WW2 &, back to dogs,......In 1951, B F Skinner (founder of modern behaviourist psychology) wrote a paper titled 'How To Teach Animals'.......Skinners sentence is directly relevant to clickers (crickets) & 'supposed' 'commercial modern dog training' is below (paste).
B F Skinner
"For a conditioned reinforcer you need a clear signal which can be given instantly and to
which the subject is sure to respond. It may be a noise or a flash of light. A whistle is not
recommended because of the time it takes to draw a breath before blowing it. A visual signal like a
wave of the arm may not always be seen by the animal. A convenient signal is a rap on a table with a
small hard object or the noise of a high-pitched device such as a "cricket."
Ref
B F Skinner, 'How To Teach Animals', Harvard, 1951.
.
Last edited:
Alec Swan
...
I'd have loved to see B F Skinner handling a dog at 300 yards, with anything other than a whistle, supported either by a changed whistle tone, or hand signals! A dog which accepts hand signals at 10 yards, and when focussed on its handler at 300 yards, sees them, trust me!
Alec.
Malbbe
Member
Skinner never would or never implied in any way that OC (operant conditioning) could be consistently & reliably applied outside lab conditions, neither did he ever mention anything significant about dogs or their training.
What Skinner did write in his primary, probably most important, work & which founded modern behaviourism, was in keeping with what you just wrote, in 1938 Skinner said:
"The dynamic properties which are fundamental to a science of behavior can be properly >>>>investigated only in the laboratory<<<. Casual or even clinical observation is ill-adapted to the study of*processes,*as distinct from momentary features".
Ref
B F Skinner, (1938), 'The Behavior Of Organisms', Copley Publishing Group, Acton, Masachutsetts, 01720
.
What Skinner did write in his primary, probably most important, work & which founded modern behaviourism, was in keeping with what you just wrote, in 1938 Skinner said:
"The dynamic properties which are fundamental to a science of behavior can be properly >>>>investigated only in the laboratory<<<. Casual or even clinical observation is ill-adapted to the study of*processes,*as distinct from momentary features".
Ref
B F Skinner, (1938), 'The Behavior Of Organisms', Copley Publishing Group, Acton, Masachutsetts, 01720
.
Last edited:
Burtyler
Active Member
Clickers are old hat, very old hat, probably why some think they are new is because the idea is a selling point by the recent (15 years or so) development of COMMERCIAL dog trainers, more often selling themselves as 'reward' or 'positive' trainers & 'behaviourists'...IT'S ALL SALES TALK.
I may be considered one of these "commercial" dog trainers but I don't think we are selling the idea of clicker training as being new any more than Pirelli or Goodyear are selling their tyres as being new. What we are attempting to do is to encourage owners back to using it as a training method.
Speaking for myself I have read about and studied the roots of modern behaviourist psychology on which I base my methods and I know that all the members of the associations I belong to are required to understand it in order to qualify as members.
The concept of "positive" or "reward based" training is a way of identifying the methodology we are using.
I may be considered one of these "commercial" dog trainers but I don't think we are selling the idea of clicker training as being new any more than Pirelli or Goodyear are selling their tyres as being new. What we are attempting to do is to encourage owners back to using it as a training method.
Speaking for myself I have read about and studied the roots of modern behaviourist psychology on which I base my methods and I know that all the members of the associations I belong to are required to understand it in order to qualify as members.
The concept of "positive" or "reward based" training is a way of identifying the methodology we are using.
Burtyler
Active Member
Alec.
When you first start to train any dog do you not begin at a very close range to them? You wouldn't try stopping a dog at 300 yards from the outset...... you start close and then add distance.
The clicker is used to tell the dog they achieved the behaviour you wanted not as a signal to tell them to DO a behaviour. The whistle or hand signal is merely a CUE like asking a dog to sit.....its a signal of what you want them to do. So if you are teaching a whistle tone or hand signal....in the early stages close to the dog.... you can use a clicker to indicate to the dog when they offer the correct response to your hand signal or whistle that you gave them.
When you first start to train any dog do you not begin at a very close range to them? You wouldn't try stopping a dog at 300 yards from the outset...... you start close and then add distance.
The clicker is used to tell the dog they achieved the behaviour you wanted not as a signal to tell them to DO a behaviour. The whistle or hand signal is merely a CUE like asking a dog to sit.....its a signal of what you want them to do. So if you are teaching a whistle tone or hand signal....in the early stages close to the dog.... you can use a clicker to indicate to the dog when they offer the correct response to your hand signal or whistle that you gave them.
Malbbe
Member
Burtyler - The clicker is used to tell the dog they achieved the behaviour you wanted not as a signal to tell them to DO a behaviour. -
Clickers >& other sonic devices< were in common widespread use with dogs in the circuses, they could be used as a conditioned reinforcer or they could & were sometimes used to 'instruct' a behaviour.
As I vaguely remember them then I am pretty sure the circus's had some with slightly, but 'noticably' different tones or something which made some of them sound different, they were often used through a mike & speaker system. That said dog tricks were only a small part of a circus night out, more of a few minuets of fill in portions.
Clickers >& other sonic devices< were in common widespread use with dogs in the circuses, they could be used as a conditioned reinforcer or they could & were sometimes used to 'instruct' a behaviour.
As I vaguely remember them then I am pretty sure the circus's had some with slightly, but 'noticably' different tones or something which made some of them sound different, they were often used through a mike & speaker system. That said dog tricks were only a small part of a circus night out, more of a few minuets of fill in portions.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
you can use anything the cue or mark a behaviour including a clicker, however a clicker is generally used to mark behaviour ie indicate to an animal what it has done is correct.
if you use it a cue it is of limited use as a single click could only cue one behaviour but as a marker it can be far more effectively and widely used
if you use it a cue it is of limited use as a single click could only cue one behaviour but as a marker it can be far more effectively and widely used
Alec Swan
...
All training starts, 'In Hand', 'In the House', or 'In the Garden', in other words, under controlled conditions whereby correction is easily achieved. Trying to stop a wayward dog at 300 yards, is a waste of time, I've found!
Alec.
Malbbe
Member
Quote - Trying to stop a wayward dog at 300 yards, is a waste of time,
Yes, but, what Burtyler can only mean is that dogs are the only species of mammal on the planet which if it is taught/learns what 'to do' it will never do what it should 'not' do with any learning 'process' taking place.
Yes, but, what Burtyler can only mean is that dogs are the only species of mammal on the planet which if it is taught/learns what 'to do' it will never do what it should 'not' do with any learning 'process' taking place.
Alec Swan
...
I'm not too sure about that. Most breeds of dog, those bred for a purpose (work), will mostly have a self satisfying and underlying purpose. Sheepdogs, for instance will have the base line intention of killing the sheep, and Gundogs too will be there to catch and kill game. It's our level of discipline which applies the brakes and has them operating within the bounds which the handler wants. Sheepdogs and Gundogs, when they have no training in place (at least, those with the greatest potential from a 'handling' aspect), will very quickly revert to their base instincts, and it isn't so much a case of them learning through training as assuming or learning through a lack of training, and so their inbuilt and instinctive behaviour patterns, take over. And so I believe that learning what not to do isn't so much a process, as a case of reverting to the animals instinctive behaviour, a behaviour which we attempt to suppress or at least 'use' to our advantage.
Considering the above paragraph, can the same be said of the Guard breeds? I suspect that it can. I'm trying to think of a breed or type of dog to which the above thoughts don't apply, but for now, I can't! Most breeds of Hounds, and that would include the Coursing breeds are, or tend to be, one step removed from the handling standpoint, as control and direction have never really been asked of them, at least not to the extent of most Gundogs and Sheepdogs.
That's what I think!
Alec.
Burtyler
Active Member
Malbbe
Member
Last edited:
Alec Swan
...
Malbbe, my Flash Player seems to need upgrading, and I can't access your youtube inclusion, perhaps you could describe it too me.
Alec.
Alec.
Malbbe
Member
Flashplayer is a free download but DOWLOAD ONLY from Adobes site - - NEVER download from any other source or accept any notices which come through to PC's offering 'Flashplayer free download' OR any other site .
This is Adobes main site, you can download it from there:
https://www.adobe.com
This is Adobes main site, you can download it from there:
https://www.adobe.com
Alec Swan
...
I already have Adobe Flash, but it disconnects every time that there's a new supplier's update. It seems to refuse me access. My Mac guru says that he'll sort it out, remotely, when he gets round to it!
In the meantime, describe to me how you see the piece of film, and when my system is again up and running, we'll see if your interpretation is as mine!
Alec.
In the meantime, describe to me how you see the piece of film, and when my system is again up and running, we'll see if your interpretation is as mine!
Alec.
Malbbe
Member
I see it as a good example of highlighting the (Skinner 1938) 2 reinforcing stimuli in OC in a live reinforcement training exercise, Skinner wrote - "There are thus two kinds of reinforcing stimuli positive and the cessation of a positive reinforcement acts as a negative, the cessation of a negative as a positive" -
Ref
B F Skinner, 1938, 'The Behavior of Organisms', p 66.
Ref
B F Skinner, 1938, 'The Behavior of Organisms', p 66.
Alec Swan
...
Staggered!
I've finally managed to affect the download! It's such a sense of achievement!! (Sad, I know)!
There was so much that I couldn't agree with. Why give an instruction to a dog when he's going to do it anyway? Once the dog has a grasp of what retrieving is about, then the dog is 'stopped' or at least stationary ('steady' in correct terms), and he waits until he's sent. Once a desire to retrieve is established, the longer that 'running in' is left, so the harder it is to achieve 'steadiness'. Refusing to allow a dog to retrieve, until he's sent, is how they are wound-up, and speed on the outward and return journeys, and smart retrieves are encouraged.
It is a GOLDEN RULE of retrieving work, that the dog is NEVER stopped when he's returning with the 'dummy' (retrieved item). Similarly, when a dog has his retrieving established, the item is always taken gently and it becomes the handler's property. NEVER should the 'dummy' (object item, whatever) be given back to the dog. The dummy is the handlers property. It would be different with a dog doing man-work when he's given the sleeve to play with, as the sleeve isn't a retrieving item.
When the dog took off after the deer, the handler didn't stop it, he used a recall whistle. When a dog is 'stopped', and he's about to commit a sin (mortal or otherwise!), the dog is stopped, left in the 'down' position, grumbled at if needs be, and then left to consider his crime. If he's simply recalled and without a stop, then he doesn't learn right from wrong, he just learns " Not this time".
I'm sorry to pull it to bits, but you did ask for an opinion.
Alec.
Malbbe
Member
Alec- "I'm sorry to pull it to bits,"
No need to be sorry, you did not pull anything I said to bits, if you look again at my quote I was talking about the way it illustrated the 2 reinforcers in OC, my comments were on the learning causes, your comments seem to be to do with your subjective perception of 'method(s)', that/those are not the subject I made observations on.
For the record, skinners OC is not about methods, it is about how learning ocurres, skinner was nothing to do with the potential millions of methods for this & that species or individuals subjective opinions of methods.
No need to be sorry, you did not pull anything I said to bits, if you look again at my quote I was talking about the way it illustrated the 2 reinforcers in OC, my comments were on the learning causes, your comments seem to be to do with your subjective perception of 'method(s)', that/those are not the subject I made observations on.
For the record, skinners OC is not about methods, it is about how learning ocurres, skinner was nothing to do with the potential millions of methods for this & that species or individuals subjective opinions of methods.
Last edited:
P_Sutcliff
New User
Teaslemeg
"The 'inexperienced ' woman advising them was Emily Blackwell a lecturer in canine behaviour at Bristol University with 15 years experience"---"Dr John Bradshaw ( the man talking about dominance theory) is also a world renowned expert on animal behaviour".
I think you need to look around the net more Teaslemeg,
They are only academics, (ie they can write well in a novel kinda way), who have to sell themselves so naïve young people pay for their degree courses, keep them in a job & their graduates can leave uni waving a bit of paper & wondering why no sensible pet dog owner will employ them these days.
Paying, investing in, any degree course these days needs to lead to profitable employment for life, these dog behaviourist grads were played out by mid tensi's, they had some popularity in 1990's but died out with the reputation of being useless through the first ten years of this century. New dog owners might hire one because they know no better! especially those mentioned, they & their uni have been subject to ridicule all over the net for a few years now & Dr Rachel Casey has actually been openly accused of lieing & Bristol Uni has called 'the cesspit of science' as a result of their meanderings!
Dr Emily Blackwell, Dr John Bradshaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXr4yVPhsig
Bristol University, Dr Rachel Casey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dG53ZkaPY
Google key words search results –
Dr Emily Blackwell, Dr Rachel Casey, Dr John Bradshaw
http://bit.ly/1xDqrh7
.
"The 'inexperienced ' woman advising them was Emily Blackwell a lecturer in canine behaviour at Bristol University with 15 years experience"---"Dr John Bradshaw ( the man talking about dominance theory) is also a world renowned expert on animal behaviour".
I think you need to look around the net more Teaslemeg,
They are only academics, (ie they can write well in a novel kinda way), who have to sell themselves so naïve young people pay for their degree courses, keep them in a job & their graduates can leave uni waving a bit of paper & wondering why no sensible pet dog owner will employ them these days.
Paying, investing in, any degree course these days needs to lead to profitable employment for life, these dog behaviourist grads were played out by mid tensi's, they had some popularity in 1990's but died out with the reputation of being useless through the first ten years of this century. New dog owners might hire one because they know no better! especially those mentioned, they & their uni have been subject to ridicule all over the net for a few years now & Dr Rachel Casey has actually been openly accused of lieing & Bristol Uni has called 'the cesspit of science' as a result of their meanderings!
Dr Emily Blackwell, Dr John Bradshaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXr4yVPhsig
Bristol University, Dr Rachel Casey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dG53ZkaPY
Google key words search results –
Dr Emily Blackwell, Dr Rachel Casey, Dr John Bradshaw
http://bit.ly/1xDqrh7
.
Alec Swan
...
I suspect that the now seemingly popular 'Doctorate of Dog Training', has clear parallels with the boom in the 1990s of Ostrich Farming. The only people who had any success as Ostrich Farmers, were those who set themselves up as gurus on the subject, and also advised and sold the wherewithal to landowners whereby they could 'Farm"(!) Ostriches. Ostrich Farming was a colossal failure, for just about every client of the Advisors. Similarly, those who achieve degree status as Dog Trainers, rarely, that I've seen anyway, sell themselves and their thoughts to those who are anything other than gullible, and who also lack any practical experience, and the term, though not intentionally being meant in an insulting manner, is that it's al so often a case of the blind leading the blind.
The canine mind is actually a very basic and simple organism, calling for basic and simple approaches, and to attempt to bamboozle the rest of the canine world into believing that there's a level of ethereal or previously unconsidered thought processes, speaks to me of the charlatan. To support my argument, perhaps we can consider the training of horses. Perhaps we can consider the Roberts, the Withefords, the Maxwells and others, those who have an understanding of the equine mind, and I'd be very surprised to hear that there's a BA amongst them! I'd be equally surprised to hear that any of those who are truly successful and would be considered as world authorities, have ever read, or written, a 'paper'!
I'll be quite honest, what makes these claims ever more ridiculous, are the labels which are attached to the theorised twaddle! Understanding the mind of a dog, is a simple and basic process. How successful we are is in achieving our goals with a dog, is generally dependent upon how we apply ourselves, and not by confusing the issues involved by needless and complicated over-thinking.
Alec.