Doing a u-turn on selling?

[Hawkings]

I have a schoolmaster gelding out on long term loan, who I’m thinking of selling. He’s worth around £6k at market value, and a friend of mine who does selling livery believes she could sell him fairly quickly to a decent home.

My dilemma is that I offered him to the loaner first a while ago, for a substantially reduced amount. The loaner has to be honest been a bit of a pain recently, communication has been terrible and sometimes it will take me days to get a response which has concerned me a lot. It didn’t used to be this way so I can only think she’s grown complacent. The horse itself is fine as I see social media updates etc and visit twice a year. I’ve no doubt she adores my horse as he’s a lovely sort, but her personal life is chaotic at the moment which I don’t think has helped communication. There have been a few other incidents which have led me to losing patience and faith in her as a loaner unfortunately.

Would I be a terrible person for rescinding my offer to sell to the loaner and put my horse into sales livery with my friend? I want the best home for him which I trust my friend to be able to find for him.

 

[ester]

Did the loaner take you up on your offer? If so when were they possibly paying?

I do think it would be pretty tough to remove him just on the basis of waiting a few days for a reply when you arent concerned for his welfare and his care is good and that if you want more money you should be honest about that.

 

[stormox]

I think if you have offered the loaner first refusal should she want to buy him, you should really have a word and see if she wants to buy before you put him on sales livery.

 

[Frumpoon]

Why did you put him out on loan in the first place as opposed to selling?

Is he actually worth £6k or is that the number you need right now?

The danger is you take him from a secure, long term home where his basic needs are met plus love, affection etc Andy he goes in sales Livery for many weeks where your £6k gets eaten up in Livery fees

If I was offering sales Livery then of course I'd be of the opinion that my service would yield the best results in the min amount of time...the reality might be a bit different

 

[Hawkings]

That’s correct the loaner has first refusal. We don’t have anything set in stone, I mentioned about a year ago that I may sell in the next couple of years but would always offer him to her first. This was back in the days where she kept me up to date on things... I gave her a rough figure I’d be looking at and although she’s mentioned it in passing a couple of times nothing more has come from it. I believe she has the funds but has made other things a priority perhaps.

Only reason I’m thinking of selling soon is because we have a big house renovation coming up and the money would be useful to be honest.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Does the loner's chaotic social life impact on the horse's care/welfare? If not, I can't see your problem. You offered her first refusal, so you should stand by that but you could tell her that you need a decision by ........ and give her a reasonable time frame, if you haven't already suggested a date.


ETA, Sales livery may well get a bigger sum for him but needs to be balanced against the price for keeping him there whilst he is advertised, viewed, vetted and collected, always supposing that he is advertised at an attractive price for what he is.

 

[Wheels]

Yes it would be very harsh on the loaner to not let her have first refusal.

I would approach her again and give her a reasonable amount of time to pay, if it doesn't materialise you will remove the horse to sales livery.

 

[ester]

So as it seems it was only a loose arrangement give her proper first refusal at the price you want/need if you think it fair market value. She probably has made other things a priority if you haven't actually officially offered and I wouldn't think it a reflection on her like of the horse.

Of course she will be less likely to want a vetting either which is a risk if you send him to sales livery (in addition to costs, and not knowing whether who he goes to will ever update you, get on with him long term etc etc).

 

[Flicker]

You know he has a good home with her. You can’t guarantee that if you sold him. And he may not sell on sales Livery.
If I was your loaner, I would be pretty upset if the horse I essentially had on loan with view to buy (because this is what you had suggested) then got taken out from u see me and put on sales Livery.
Maybe you could have a conversation with the loaner about what factors I’m her life are taking priority over keeping in touch with you?

 

[Hawkings]

Why did you put him out on loan in the first place as opposed to selling?

Is he actually worth £6k or is that the number you need right now?

The danger is you take him from a secure, long term home where his basic needs are met plus love, affection etc Andy he goes in sales Livery for many weeks where your £6k gets eaten up in Livery fees

If I was offering sales Livery then of course I'd be of the opinion that my service would yield the best results in the min amount of time...the reality might be a bit different

Thank you, yes that’s the risk I’d be taking by putting him into sales livery as I know how quickly any profit could be eaten into if he doesn’t sell. Hence why I’m unsure.

At the time of putting him on loan it suited my circumstances but as time has gone on life has changed, I have other priorities now and am not sure I’d have the time to commit to proper ownership again.

 

[Hawkings]

I appreciate all the replies, thank you! Lots of things for me to think about.

I understand the loaner would be upset, I just think I was perhaps too generous in my original offer. We have had a chat about her personal life but communication hasn’t gotten any better, and I’ve started to feel that I’m being fobbed off with excuses as to why she hasn’t responded for days, for example a simple question that I needed to know for insurance renewal purposes took over a week and several messages and emails to get a straight answer. I appreciate everyone is busy but nobody can be that busy!

 

[Cowpony]

I can understand that over time she probably doesn't think you need such regular communication any more, as you must now trust that she's looking after him OK. You promised her first refusal so you should stick to that. Give her a deadline to come back to you with a decision on whether she wants him, and if she says yes give her a deadline to pay by. That will show you how serious she is. If she doesn't meet either deadline remove him to sales livery. But mean it and do it. No faffing around if she doesn't meet the deadline. Yes you could lose money on sales livery, but he could go lame in her care and halve in value tomorrow, so if you need the money go for it!

 

[FestiveFuzz]

As someone in a very similar position but on the other side of the fence, I have to say I really feel for your loaner.

I'm incredibly fortunate to have my boy on permanent loan, though his owner did mention the option to buy for a nominal fee when I first took him on. At the time I didn't have the funds as he came to me as a ridden horse whilst my youngster was on box rest. Sadly I lost my youngster and have since been saving a little every month in the event his owner mentions the option to buy him again, although over a year later nothing has ever been mentioned and I'm not one to rock the boat.

He is my absolute world, literally my horse of a lifetime and will have a home for life with us. I would be beyond devastated if he were sold from under me.

When I first took him on I would send his owner weekly updates, but over time I've felt her responses getting shorter so now I tend to only text when we've done something interesting rather than constantly bugging her with updates on our lessons or what he spooked at on a hack. I really hope she doesn't think it's complacency on my part, as it's just that I know how insanely busy she is so don't want to bombard her with texts all the time.

In your shoes I'd just speak to your loaner, explain your situation and the need to sell your horse sooner rather than later and just see what she says.

 

[HashRouge]

In your shoes I'd just speak to your loaner, explain your situation and the need to sell your horse sooner rather than later and just see what she says.

I think this is a good suggestion.
OP, I know it can be annoying when people don't respond to text messages, but sometimes when people are very busy it just isn't a priority. I often receive a message when I'm in the middle of something, think "I'll reply later", and then forget. It's not a sign of ill will, I'm just very busy and don't always remember!
I can appreciate that you may now want more money for him, but I would suggest seriously weighing up the advantages of selling him to the loaner. You have a guaranteed sale (assuming she still wants to buy), she is less likely to want a vetting and you know it is a good home. Plus, you won't have to worry about sales livery fees. It's all very well your friend saying she can sell him quickly, but what if she can't, or what if that means him not necessarily going to the best home?

 

[Theocat]

I can understand that over time she probably doesn't think you need such regular communication any more, as you must now trust that she's looking after him OK. You promised her first refusal so you should stick to that. Give her a deadline to come back to you with a decision on whether she wants him, and if she says yes give her a deadline to pay by. That will show you how serious she is. If she doesn't meet either deadline remove him to sales livery. But mean it and do it. No faffing around if she doesn't meet the deadline. Yes you could lose money on sales livery, but he could go lame in her care and halve in value tomorrow, so if you need the money go for it!

Agree with this. If the problem is that you mentioned a lower price last time, but as a result of the communications issues don't now feel like being generous, then I don't see any reason why you can't change your mind (apart from feeling a bit uncomfortable) - you probably want to sell for a bit less than you would at sales livery any way (assume four weeks livery plus 10% commission?), so just contact her and offer him formally for X amount (probably £4.5 - 5k?), with a deadline for decision and payment.

If there's any chance he might fail a vetting, better that you start with her and potentially negotiate the sale at a lower price, than end the loan, send him away, and end up with a broken unsellable horse and no loaner ...

 

[little_critter]

As I understand it her care of the horse is good, the only issue is her communication with you?
Once you sell (to her or someone else) the communication will stop anyway as you have no further interest in the horse. So I would say when it comes to deciding who to sell to, the communication is a non-issue.
If you want reassurance that your horse will go to someone who will look after him then she has already proved herself on that front. If you were to sell to someone else then you could not be sure about how they would care for your horse.

I understand her poor communication has irritated you, but it shouldn’t be part of your decision of whether to sell to her.
On the money front, compare what she might pay to what you are likely to receive after sales livery and commission, is it really that much different?

 

[mytwofriends]

As mentioned by others, yes you should still uphold your ‘first refusal’ offer to the loaner, but contact her now (phone call/visit//text/letter - all of the above, basically whatever method it takes to get hold of her), and state your intentions.

I’m not sure whether the amount you initially discussed with her was carved in stone, but if it wasn’t and she would like to buy him, mention the £6k figure and maybe negotiate from there. Sales livery costs, possible failed vettings should definitely need to be taken into account.

Good luck.

 

[PapaverFollis]

You can have a chaotic life and struggle to communicate with other humans and still give your horse really good care. I think you are being lured in by the shiny 6K (which quite possibly won't materialise in full especially with the cost of sales livery) and are looking for an excuse to recind your lower offer to you loaner.

When I took Granny on it was on loan with the understanding that if selling was on the cards I got first refusal. It was a very casual arrangement but it would have hurt me enormously to have her sold from under me. When I did buy her I didn't want a vetting and her owner just got some money and a low hassle sale. Job done.

If you had genuine concerns about the horse's welfare then it would be a different matter but I don't think you do. As someone said if you are selling anyway communication problems are a non-issue.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Does the loner's chaotic social life impact on the horse's care/welfare? If not, I can't see your problem. You offered her first refusal, so you should stand by that but you could tell her that you need a decision by ........ and give her a reasonable time frame, if you haven't already suggested a date.


ETA, Sales livery may well get a bigger sum for him but needs to be balanced against the price for keeping him there whilst he is advertised, viewed, vetted and collected, always supposing that he is advertised at an attractive price for what he is.

And passes the vetting. I had a horse at a dealers in sales Livery and it was expensive and he took awhile to sell, I did a deal swapping for another horse in the end.

Also has the loaner put work into him that means he’s worth more now than when she took him on? If that’s the case then morally I don’t think you should be asking more than what he was originally worth, plus a reduction due to costs of selling and hassle factor.

 

[ycbm]

You might take hIm away, have him fail the vet for the buyer, and then be left with a horse worth nothing who the loaner won't take back. Sell him to the loaner.


It amazes me how many people believe a horse is sold when a buyer makes an offer. A horse isn't sold until it leaves for its new home (and sometimes not even then!).

 

[Frumpoon]

I guess I'm not in a dissimilar position

I've got a pony out on loan and honestly could really do with a few grand right now

BUT it was really hard finding a decent home for her - sales or loan

I know how much the family love her and have put more work into her since she went to them so I'm content to struggle on for a few more months until I've settled my debts without resorting to selling the pony

 

[Red-1]

As long as the horse is cared for then yes, I would still give the loaner 1st refusal.

I am not surprised she has not mentioned it, as you only said you might sell in the future, so if she had mentioned it she would have been rude.

It would be really cruel to just remove the horse, and this is one of the reasons I won't have a horse here that does not belong to me.

As for the amount, that depends...

If she has added the value to the horse, then yes, the original price should stand.

If the horse was already up to speed on everything, then I would say it would be acceptable to say that she can have first refusal, but that the horse has been valued at 6K, but as a thank you for all her time etc she could buy the horse for 4.5K. I would then expect her to ask to have the horse for 4K, which I would accept.

Either that or I would offer the horse at 4K straight out.

How much did you offer the horse for initially?

 

[stormox]

I dont think it matters that it was 'only a loose arrangement' - it would be quite unacceptable IMO not to at least talk to the loaner. You say she doesn't reply to you immediately but it takes a few days- she replies doesnt she?

 

[Ambers Echo]

I think it would be pretty shabby behaviour to sell from underneath the loaner without offering her the option to buy.

In terms of what you offer to sell for depends on a number of factors:

As others have said there is a big difference between an estimate of value and a completed sale so I'd view that 6K with a huge warning sign over it. 1 failed vetting (even on something marginal like flexion tests) and that could halve or worse.

On the other hand if your original casual suggested price was a huge underestimation of the market value of the horse, then you can just be honest and say so. You could state that having taken advice you now realise the horse is worth far more than you had imagined so you need to adjust the sale price accordingly. Assuming you are offering her a fair price with a hassle-factor discount then she can do her own research and realise the horse is fairly priced.

Finally is the added value largely due to the loaner's efforts? If so I think the price should reflect that.

 

[Cortez]

First refusal means just that, and no more than that. Tell her you are putting the horse up for sale and if she wants him she can have him for whatever price you are asking. If she doesn't want him, or doesn't have the money, then he will be sold to however does. Simple.

 

[ROMANY 1959]

I put a horse on sales livery 4 years ago, yes I got lot more for him when he sold, but had to pay 8 weeks livery at £175 a week and transport costs to get him to sales livery, in all I only made £800 more than when I bought him..he was fresh from Ireland, I had a rider produce him then sold on after a year.. I would negotiate with loaner on a fair price..bearing in mind it was a few years ago you said you offered horse to loaner as a first refusal... sales livery is a good route, but should the horse not sell for a few months it can cost a fair packet

 

[Rowreach]

First refusal means just that, and no more than that. Tell her you are putting the horse up for sale and if she wants him she can have him for whatever price you are asking. If she doesn't want him, or doesn't have the money, then he will be sold to however does. Simple.

I'd be pretty annoyed to have put work into and value onto a horse only to be told that if I want to buy him I now have to pay the inflated price and not the price he was worth when I first got him.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'd be pretty annoyed to have put work into and value onto a horse only to be told that if I want to buy him I now have to pay the inflated price and not the price he was worth when I first got him.

But it's how most loans work, it's just how it is. If you want to realise the increase in value due to work put in, then usually you need to own the horse or to have pre agreed the issue from the start with the owner.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'd be pretty annoyed to have put work into and value onto a horse only to be told that if I want to buy him I now have to pay the inflated price and not the price he was worth when I first got him.

Especially if, rather than being on loan, he would have simply been enjoying his time off in the field.

 

[honetpot]

As I have loaned out a few over the years I am a lot tougher on loaners. I have never wanted to sell but all that I have loaned out have been easily sellable, but I did not want to lose control.
In my experience most loaners, as I said I have had a few, are very good at saying one thing and doing another, even if its specified in a contract. The shortest time I have had for returning is a week, I collected him in a day.
I would text and email her and explain you need to sell and would like to know if she was still interested in buying and could she call you to talk about it. Give her and week and if she doesn't get in touch, give her one months notice, but be prepared to pick it up in the week.
Whether you get £3K or £6K, its still a lot of money, and its your asset. If its a nice horse it will find a nice home.