Dominant, grumpy or nasty?

[amandap]

Then you had very different early experiences from me. My early teaching, in the 60s was that you didn't stand any nonsense but worked *with* the horse to get what you wanted without putting yourself or the horse, or any bystanders, at risk. My first RI (at RS) was a brilliant horsewoman, although not as brave a rider as her husband, who was very conscious that the horses were her livelihood and that she was responsible for other people's children and their safety when they were on her yard. She knew every horse & pony inside out and always worked with their temperaments to get the best out of them.
Later I was lucky enough to get to know a farmer who had worked with horses all his life. He was considerably older than me and again knew his horses inside out, used them as hunters, show horses and for the RS and RDA. Again, he wouldn't stand any nonsense but was always fair and worked with the horse, rather than forcing any issue. He was always quiet around them, or indeed any other animal.
I wonder what went wrong in the time between those eras and the 'discovery' of NH?

I am a similar age by the sound of it but in a very rural area if that has any bearing. Do you think your experience was standard? I wonder if horsemanship was as varied then as it is today.
When I read things like use your stick/bite it/boot it or chuck a bucket at it, it is not so called NH people giving that advice. Who are these people? Have they always been around?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Well perhaps I was just lucky. I was brought up in a semi-rural area. All I can tell you is that all the adults I've mentioned were/are connected with a particular Hunt and PC, and some of their pupils are now extremely successful, well-known and respected international professional riders.
Probably horsemanship was just as varied then as it is now but we hear more about the different methods these days because of much better communications. I have to say that it drives me mad when I read on here, or elsewhere, that NH is a revolutionary new way (imported from USA) of dealing with horses as some of the demos I've been to don't seem sympathetic to the horse at all.

 

[Templebar]

OP i wonder did you actually see this mare cripple and dispatch this other horse or could this be a case of chinese whispers, mare kicked other horse and broke its leg which was then dispatched properly on owners orders. This sounds like a far more likely senario than the one you have said, not saying that its wrong but just wondering how accurate the information is.

Now as to the theories by the livery people its rubbish, lead mares do not get rid of other horses. Anything old or sick to carry on with the herd is left behind. I have 4 mares in my herd that have been a stable herd for 4 years. The oldest (in residence 11 years and age 22) and smallest is the lowest in pecking order does not like confrontation, will leave feed if the others approach and just tells others to keep out of her space with head tosses and grunts. Youngster 4 years was born in the herd she is now 2nd tallest and establishing her place within the herd she is a protector of the old mare. Cob mare is 8 she is newest in the herd 3 years, she would like to be top but cant beat top mare so will take it out on others, her and youngster play and she will have a go at the oldest mare when she gets the chance trying to kick her. Now top mare is the mother of the youngster and she is 14 years, she is the biggest and has been top ever since arriving 9 years ago she manages the herd without conflict putting her foal and the stroppy cob into place if needed, her and the old mare seem to have an understanding that they dont really bother one another, she will also stand up for old mare against cob if she is out of order which usually involves putting herself between them and nothing more.

I would therefore say that this mare would be considered the "lead" and therefore this goes against the theory that she would try to harm others and instead agree with wild horse behaviour in that she tries to manage the herd peacefully. I would think the mare in this case has not been socialised correctly and probably moved around a lot and perhaps been the subject of herd bullying at one point. Therefore she now feels the need to defend herself all the time and does this by attacking but i would say without the intention of killing others. I would say she is managed correctly and would guess that at her age (pressuming early teens or later) she is not likely to change.

 

[PolarSkye]

OP i wonder did you actually see this mare cripple and dispatch this other horse or could this be a case of chinese whispers, mare kicked other horse and broke its leg which was then dispatched properly on owners orders. This sounds like a far more likely senario than the one you have said, not saying that its wrong but just wondering how accurate the information is.

I'm not sure why you're challenging this tbh - and you are challenging it so to couch your statement/question with "not saying it's wrong" is a tad disingenuous tbh. To answer your question - the horse's owner told me that she had killed another horse - it was witnessed by the other horse's owner . . . mare kicked the other, when she fell to the floor, mare kept kicking until the other was insensible and beyond help. Vet put the horse to sleep in the field - she was too broken to be moved. This past weekend, mare accidentally got in with another mare (elderly, blind and very arthritic) overnight and battered her back legs - I know this because I have seen the wounds for myself, there is no other explanation for the blind mare's injuries and I had my own vet see to her yesterday (he was coming out to see my boy anyway) and have been cold hosing the injured mare myself.

I would think the mare in this case has not been socialised correctly and probably moved around a lot and perhaps been the subject of herd bullying at one point. Therefore she now feels the need to defend herself all the time and does this by attacking but i would say without the intention of killing others. I would say she is managed correctly and would guess that at her age (pressuming early teens or later) she is not likely to change.

The mare in question is 14 - has been with current owner for 8 years and before that was a broodmare for a couple of years - don't know her history before that (and neither does owner). When owner first bought her, she lived happily in a large herd with no issues . . . the horse she fatally injured was moved into her herd and that's when things went wrong. I believe she meant to hurt both mares . . . and she kept kicking the one who died until she was sure it wasn't going to get up. I agree that she's not likely to change . . . and I believe her owner manages her correctly, however I was wondering whether any physical problem (ovary pain, etc.) could contribute to this behaviour (see my original question/post).

P

 

[Urban Horse]

I would therefore say that this mare would be considered the "lead" and therefore this goes against the theory that she would try to harm others and instead agree with wild horse behaviour in that she tries to manage the herd peacefully. I would think the mare in this case has not been socialised correctly and probably moved around a lot and perhaps been the subject of herd bullying at one point. Therefore she now feels the need to defend herself all the time and does this by attacking but i would say without the intention of killing others. I would say she is managed correctly and would guess that at her age (pressuming early teens or later) she is not likely to change.

In instances of sudden and unexplained violence and attacks from horses, both towards other horses, and their handlers, I'd always suspect brain tumours first.

We had a Shire Stallion on the edge of the village, he allegedly killed a section B and his owners didn't know what to do with him.... He spent over twenty years alone in a paddock, largely being fed and cared for by villagers until his death a couple of years ago. Even humans convicted of murder don't spend all that time in solitary;-(

 

[fburton]

In instances of sudden and unexplained violence and attacks from horses, both towards other horses, and their handlers, I'd always suspect brain tumours first.

One often hears that offered as an explanation for out-of-the-blue and out-of-character violent attacks, especially by stallions. A few years ago I attempted to find evidence to support this view in the clinical literature and I'm afraid to say I drew a blank. I supposed this was because such attacks are pretty rare and post-mortems conducted after the event to look specifically for this as a cause are even rarer. In living horses, such tumours are hard to diagnose radiographically unless they are very large and/or invade or distort the bone, and symptoms vary greatly depending on where the tumour is.

We had a Shire Stallion on the edge of the village, he allegedly killed a section B and his owners didn't know what to do with him.... He spent over twenty years alone in a paddock, largely being fed and cared for by villagers until his death a couple of years ago. Even humans convicted of murder don't spend all that time in solitary;-(

Poor fella. What was his behaviour like in those 20 years, interacting with people? Was his killing the pony blamed on a brain tumour? If a brain tumour was the explanation (which instinctively I would be inclined to doubt tbh), one would expect to see something in the way of aberrant behaviour, even if the tumour had stopped progressing.

 

[Urban Horse]

Poor fella. What was his behaviour like in those 20 years, interacting with people? Was his killing the pony blamed on a brain tumour? If a brain tumour was the explanation (which instinctively I would be inclined to doubt tbh), one would expect to see something in the way of aberrant behaviour, even if the tumour had stopped progressing.

No, as far as I can make out, (and some folk are keeping their cards very close to their chest) it was an attempted covering that went seriously wrong. His interaction with people was his only lifeline to the outside world... Large numbers of horses were ridden past his paddock, including my own mares, but in the years I knew him he paid no attention of any sort to any passing horse. It was as though he had defended himself by shutting down his very 'horseness'. Towards peole I never knew him to be anything but kind and gentle, and to be honest while it's very selfish to miss him, it was with mixed emotions that I heard he'd been PTS.

 

[Urban Horse]

I read Urban Horse's piece as tongue firmly in cheek. It made me chuckle anyway. The accuracy of the details can be questioned, but that isn't really relevant. It's the overall summary message that is spot on, imo - that the idea of "lead mare" varies depending on the individual point of view (and prejudices) of the commentator. I think it just reinforces the caveat about labelling that you made earlier.

(Of course, if UH had dissed a certain Welsh ethologist in this way, I would have been livid! )

I wouldn't dare 'diss' Lucy.... If I had my way I'd pass a law that said ALL horse owners and riders MUST read Lucy's 'The Horse's Mind' and Martha Kiley Worthington's 'Equine Welfare'... further I'd make them sit through repeated showings of 'To Ride A Wild Horse', keeping their eyes open with matchsticks until the message got home that ego and violence have no place anywhere near horses.

 

[fburton]

No, as far as I can make out, (and some folk are keeping their cards very close to their chest) it was an attempted covering that went seriously wrong.

Ah, now that sounds like a very plausible scenario.

His interaction with people was his only lifeline to the outside world... Large numbers of horses were ridden past his paddock, including my own mares, but in the years I knew him he paid no attention of any sort to any passing horse. It was as though he had defended himself by shutting down his very 'horseness'. Towards peole I never knew him to be anything but kind and gentle, and to be honest while it's very selfish to miss him, it was with mixed emotions that I heard he'd been PTS.

I can easily imagine feeling exactly the same in that situation.

... repeated showings of 'To Ride A Wild Horse'

I do wish they would screen that again - it's a really good documentary. I only have a rather snowy VHS copy of the programme (which managed to thwart my attempts at digitization), and I'd love to get hold of a good quality version.

(That's Lucy, pony and dog out for a ride and stroll in Snowdownia, pursued by helicopter.)

 

[Urban Horse]

I do wish they would screen that again - it's a really good documentary. I only have a rather snowy VHS copy of the programme (which managed to thwart my attempts at digitization), and I'd love to get hold of a good quality version.

(That's Lucy, pony and dog out for a ride and stroll in Snowdownia, pursued by helicopter.)

I've only ever seen it once...on a betamax machine and tape that someone brought in to work specially so that we might watch it during the lunch break. Sometime later I did manage to buy a copy of the 'BBC Wildlife' (I think) magazine that had an article about Lucy and her methods... From memory it had some of the line drawings from the book, and some pictures that I believe were taken at the same time the film was shot. Sadly it was lost some ten or twelve years ago.

 

[Urban Horse]

Ah yes but my experiences with the 'blame Monty for everything bad in horsemanship' faction have not been pleasant and very personal, so I am sensitized to UH's constant reference only to Monty as the root of all evil. I am not livid, just bored and fed up with that approach.

Now, which Ethologist do you mean?

fburton was essentially correct in that the piece was written entirely tongue in cheek, and the reason that the name Monty was chosen was simply down to the fact that, of the two US based major players in NH, Monty makes far more reference to Alpha or Lead Mares than Pat Parelli ever does.. Though at this point I must make it clear that I support neither of the two trainers nor do I use or employ any part of their systems. There appears to be a strange situation in NH, that being that the followers of each individual trainer seem to feel that it is unfair, or wrong, of the rest of the horse world to lay any criticism at the feet of their chosen trainer... Except of course when Pat's followers are knocking Monty,or vice versa!

The simple fact of the matter is that, those in any field of public life, whether they be horse trainers, economists or politicians, must expect their views and policies to be challenged by the populace... To disallow these challenges is dangerous in the extreme, we only have to look at the lifestyle of those who live in countries that follow, or did follow, the Marxist policies that took away the voice of the population. Was it right that we criticised 'Fred the Shred' whose leadership took RBS to the verge of ruin.... Was it right that we criticised the Bankers who have caused the last few years of 'austerity'... Is it right that we tell the government that we are tired of the common man paying for the mistakes of those that seek to lead us? If it is then why should horse trainers be exempt from any form of questioning?

No, those who put themselves above the parapet must expect to be sniped at, whether their followers think it just or not. Linda Parelli could have carried on being an air hostess, then she'd never have been taken to task for her handling of the semi blind Barney situation, nor, had he remained unknown, would Pat have taken flak over his handling of Catwalk here in the UK, when he reverted to 'Cowboy' methods, completely forgetting his messages of peaceful 'Horse-Man-Ship' that he usually talks. Monty too, if unknown, would have been completely innocent of appearing in adverts for a wormer made by a sub-division of the corporation responsible for the PMU scandal.

If you thought the 'Lead Mare's fate' posting was unfair, then you might not like these links, but they are written by equine ethologists with far more experience and qualifications than I'll ever have... The comments by Mary Ann Simonds in the comment section of 'Peter Pan Horsemanship' are particularly revealing.

http://equilibregaia.com/2014/04/11/peter-pan-horsemanship/#comments

http://equilibregaia.com/2013/03/28/snapping-at-alphas-and-submission-in-horses/

http://equilibregaia.com/library/revolutionibus-lucy-rees/


I'm sorry it's taken this long to get back on your comment, but pressures of work, caused by a fatality has rather taken most of my attention this week.

 

[NZJenny]

I have a little herd of four. My old mare is a classic lead mare - she is the undisputed boss and even though she isn't as mobile as she used to be still is.

Endurance riding her was interesting. Her place was at the front of the bunch and no matter how many times I put her at the back, she would quietly make her way back to the front. There was never any drama, no pulling or bad behaviour, but any horse that didn't let her pass got a "look" and just moved out of the way.

Her daughter is the paddock bully and as other posters have said, the others just keep out of her way.

 

[mystiandsunny]

In my horses' herd, the undisputed boss is kind, generous and caring towards the others. She won't tolerate them being nasty to each other, but will allow them to stand up for themselves before intervening. She'll stay with a sick horse or go to the gate to call human attention. They all follow her wherever she goes - when she decides it's time for a drink, they all have one, if she stands under the shelter when it rains, they all come too. If she's stabled due to injury, they all hang by the gate to stay with her and look noticeably relieved when she's allowed out again. In the wild, horses look out for their offspring, and their pair-bond. The lead mare does her best for the herd, but predators would get any stragglers. Horses that are aggressive enough to kill other horses have something wrong with them - they are few and far between, and usually loners within the herd. Normal mares pick a pair bond, and if allowed to stay with them, bond for life. That friendship brings security.

 

[amandap]

The simple fact of the matter is that, those in any field of public life, whether they be horse trainers, economists or politicians, must expect their views and policies to be challenged by the populace... To disallow these challenges is dangerous in the extreme, we only have to look at the lifestyle of those who live in countries that follow, or did follow, the Marxist policies that took away the voice of the population.

I wish to make it clear that I was not saying we should not be able to question and challenge those in the public eye or even experts in science. if you got that impression from my post then I did not put myself across very well.

 

[fburton]

... the reason that the name Monty was chosen was simply down to the fact that, of the two US based major players in NH, Monty makes far more reference to Alpha or Lead Mares than Pat Parelli ever does..

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that, Urban Horse. At least, I hear very little 'alpha talk' in the UK branch for Monty Roberts, the organization Intelligent Horsemanship headed by Kelly Marks. Indeed, one of their Recommended Associates wrote an excellent critique of the classic dominance theory for their IH Magazine (not yet published).

Parelli Natural Horsemanship, on the other hand, is quite explicit about the necessity for the handler or rider to adopt the 'alpha role' and assuming the equivalence of dominance and leadership, e.g.:

"Horses play dominance games with each other every day to maintain their “pecking order”, and this is something you’re also going to have to do whenever you are with your horse. You see, horses vote every day for their leader. Every day! If your leadership is not firmly established before you go on the trail, you will lose the vote that day. You can’t force your horse to accept you as his alpha, you have to earn it and you do this via the Seven Games."

(From article by Pat Parelli, Spooking on the Trail)

 

[PolarSkye]

"Horses play dominance games with each other every day to maintain their “pecking order”, and this is something you’re also going to have to do whenever you are with your horse. You see, horses vote every day for their leader. Every day! If your leadership is not firmly established before you go on the trail, you will lose the vote that day. You can’t force your horse to accept you as his alpha, you have to earn it and you do this via the Seven Games."

(From article by Pat Parelli, Spooking on the Trail)

Really? I mean . . . really, really?

Without turning this into yet another Parelli bashing thread . . . really?

I'm no great horsewoman, but I am observant . . . and I simply don't see this happening on a daily basis in ANY herd I have witnessed . . . including the two near-feral trotter boys (both geldings, I think) kept just over the fence from my boy (and who currently have two mini shetland mares in with them). All is harmony. Everyone gets along - possibly because the field said trotters/minis are in is plenty big enough for them all to have enough grass and get away from each other if needed.

And if I don't see it happening between the horses on the farm - in the barn, in the field, on the yard, etc. . . . I certainly don't see it happening between my own horse and the two people who interact with/handle/ride him . . . Z and me. No, he's not perfect . . . and, yes, he can "forget" his manners . . . but I never see that as him striving to be "dominant" . . . my own observations of him lead me to believe he actually doesn't LIKE being "in charge" because he is quite an insecure and sensitive soul.

That doesn't mean I feel he needs ME to be "dominant" . . . he just trusts me and looks to me for reassurance - not the same thing at all. Today, for example, something spooked him in the field and because I can't leave him to gallop around (he is injured and only has a small amount of time in the field every morning while I muck him out), I went to him and reassured him and he instantly calmed down and wanted to say by my side. It's the least I can do for him. I'm not a soft touch, by any means . . . I insist on good manners (no barging, leading nicely, respecting my personal space, etc.), but I realize that he is dependant on me for pretty much everything and that's a massive responsibility that I take very seriously.

But then perhaps I'm too stupid to see these supposed dominance games . . . due to me not having a horrendously expensive orange stick with a piece of rope attached .

P

 

[amandap]

I'll try again to post!

The thinking that we have to domiante the horse has been around in various guises for a very long time. When I was young it came in the form of "you have to show him who is boss", this, or similar, I still hear often today and no doubt it was around long before I was born.

I have said recently on here that I don't think how horses behave with one another (in some sort of pecking order) is relevant to how we handle and train them. I do think it is relevant to our husbandry though. Also, I think if we unduly stress a horse, in mind or body, it can have a negative effect on it's life and behaviour in general. By stress I mean all kinds of stress such as my mare who was grumpy in the herd when over weight.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Parelli Natural Horsemanship, on the other hand, is quite explicit about the necessity for the handler or rider to adopt the 'alpha role' and assuming the equivalence of dominance and leadership, e.g.:

"Horses play dominance games with each other every day to maintain their “pecking order”, and this is something you’re also going to have to do whenever you are with your horse. You see, horses vote every day for their leader. Every day! If your leadership is not firmly established before you go on the trail, you will lose the vote that day. You can’t force your horse to accept you as his alpha, you have to earn it and you do this via the Seven Games."

(From article by Pat Parelli, Spooking on the Trail)

And of course that is why most of the experienced horse-people in the UK have no time whatsoever for the Parellis. Unfortunately there are plenty of other 'NH exponents' here who use dubious methods, although I have ever heard any of them claim to have anything to do with IH/Kelly Marks.

 

[Alec Swan]

......... To be honest, given the comparatively shorter life span of feral and wild horses when compared to domestic, I would tend to think that accidents, predation, hunger and thirst kill far more horses than ever grow old enough to be a drag on the herd.

So many valid points, and such a good post. If we think about the role of the Lead Mare, assuming that she actually exists, then, and assuming that she's capable of such reason, wouldn't it be more likely that the weak and the dying would be left behind, to feed the following pack, rather than risk the younger members of the herd?

I sometimes read of the behaviour theorists, for not just equines but canines too, and wonder at their level of reason. I also wonder if these people ever actually have any actual experience of the animals which they lecture over. I've always found Mr. Robert's writings to be entertaining and often enlightening, but I have to say that there are the odd few tales with which he laces his yarns which are unmitigated old bullox.

The most entertaining of all, are those who've taken onboard, and accepted the drivel, and then quote their guru as the expert. Being lectured by those who are quoting recently acquired and second hand b-s, can be quite entertaining!

Alec.

 

[Templebar]

I'm not sure why you're challenging this tbh - and you are challenging it so to couch your statement/question with "not saying it's wrong" is a tad disingenuous tbh. To answer your question - the horse's owner told me that she had killed another horse - it was witnessed by the other horse's owner . . . mare kicked the other, when she fell to the floor, mare kept kicking until the other was insensible and beyond help. Vet put the horse to sleep in the field - she was too broken to be moved. This past weekend, mare accidentally got in with another mare (elderly, blind and very arthritic) overnight and battered her back legs - I know this because I have seen the wounds for myself, there is no other explanation for the blind mare's injuries and I had my own vet see to her yesterday (he was coming out to see my boy anyway) and have been cold hosing the injured mare myself.



The mare in question is 14 - has been with current owner for 8 years and before that was a broodmare for a couple of years - don't know her history before that (and neither does owner). When owner first bought her, she lived happily in a large herd with no issues . . . the horse she fatally injured was moved into her herd and that's when things went wrong. I believe she meant to hurt both mares . . . and she kept kicking the one who died until she was sure it wasn't going to get up. I agree that she's not likely to change . . . and I believe her owner manages her correctly, however I was wondering whether any physical problem (ovary pain, etc.) could contribute to this behaviour (see my original question/post).

P

Thank you and no i meant what i stated, i wasn't going to tell you that what you said was wrong if you saw it or know a reputable source saw it happen but i have heard of horses branded as dangerous when sold on as owner of said horse 10 years ago said it tried to kill someone/horse/sheep whatever. Then when you actually try and introduce two problems normally and in an open area then they are fine. One of my own horses some years ago was branded a sheep killer, when actually that happened is someone loosed ewes and lambs in with him, the lambs played and he wanted to join in and accidently squashed one, it didn't diet but it sustained a leg injury that was too severe to be put right and therefore the farmer chose to have him destrtoyed. My horse meant nothing by it and it was an accident, he was no more a sheep killer than the ewe that lies on her lamb and suffocates it, however someone else saw it and when i sold him they tried to interfere saying he was dangerous and had attacked and killed a lamb.

You have confirmed that it is from a reliable source and therefore i can believe you and stand by the advice i gave for the question you posted in your first thread. Someone else has pointed out that brain tumours can cause this problem and again my Aunt had a horse that was found with a brain tumour and he went from lovely eventer to nutter over night. After a long battle with vets for his safety and that of those around him he was put to sleep and a pm was carried out and a brain tumour was found, he was 7 he had probably had it most of his life but it had finally shifted and you could see that and was pressing on the brain in an odd way which caused the behavioural trigger.


There could be many health problems associated with this behaviour but i am not qualified to give advice on that and would therfore suggest speaking to a vet which has probably been done, they will have carried out further tests or concluded it is behavioural and to be managaged in the current way. Interestingly is it just mares she is against or all horses? Will she tolerate other field mates (cows/sheep etc)? Is she fine with just a fence between and if there is does she still interact with them over fences and if so how does that go? Sorry for all the questions and i dont mean to say anything you have said is a lie, that is what i was trying to avoid saying.

 

[Urban Horse]

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that, Urban Horse. At least, I hear very little 'alpha talk' in the UK branch for Monty Roberts, the organization Intelligent Horsemanship headed by Kelly Marks. Indeed, one of their Recommended Associates wrote an excellent critique of the classic dominance theory for their IH Magazine (not yet published).

"The Man Who Listens to Horses" Arrow edition, published 1997... Pages 95 to 98, a complete rundown on the punishment performed by what he calls the 'dominant mare', that he witnessed in the wild as a boy. Due to copyright restrictions I'm obviously unable to quote word for word.

When I underwent round pen/join up training in the very early 1990s (taught me by two Californian ladies, who it appeared were trained by Monty himself) the Dominant/Alpha mare role was repeatedly emphasised. Since the end of the 'course' I have never used the technique.

 

[fburton]

Fair enough, UH. I did read that book, but it was a long time ago and the only thing I remember reasonably clearly from it is the dreadful story of the thoroughbred stallion In Tissar (who, incidentally, I heard from another source had his incisors surgically removed at UC Davis to protect his handlers).

Maybe one should reserve judgement until one knows the current thinking on dominance of these trainers. People do change their views after all - mine certainly haven't always been the same.