done to death but advice needed-agrresive or trying it on?

[shoegal22]

Hi all, after a year of searching I thought i'd found my perfect boy. Veteran arab, beautiful. He's on long term loan at my private yard with my daughters pony.
To cut a long story short, he came to me after trying him at his yard, all good, and settled well with my welsh x and companion cob. Straight in at the bottom of the pecking order and was out working the next day-being a dream. Two weeks in his attitude changed like a switch, came in as usual and as soon as I had him tied he was trying to bite, ears back and cow kicking. I was on my own so unfortunately he got the better of me, as after a feeble groom and re rug he was back out for the night. This has now been the pattern for the last three weeks. Riding he has been fine but due to a holiday he hasn't been ridden for a week and now the thought of getting him ready to ride and tacking him up is stressing me out. Any advice? To break it down:
*borrowe companion has gone and he might be trying for top spot
*owner hss been out witnessed behaviour and was shocked,tried it a bit for her but it didn't last long
*vet checked for ulcers, pain, farrier check and saddle etc so NOT PAIN
*fine for everyone else except me!
ideas and advice please-desperate to build a great relationship with this lovely horse

 

[tabithakat64]

You need to get an instructor/someone very experienced to watch you handle him and give you advice.

New horses will often test the boundaries when they move home. You taught yours if he tries to bite and kick then he doesn't get ridden and gets to go back out to the field.

I've known a couple of horses who've learnt this trick. They don't try anything with someone confident who doesn't take any nonsense.

One of mine was horrible and would bite and kick given half a chance. We would tie him up very short so he couldn't bite any attempts were met with a stern no and swiftly timed smack with a crop if he did make contact. Good behaviour was rewarded with praise and a polo and we never gave in to him. He leant that good behaviour was easier in a couple of weeks but would still try it on with new people.

I would get experienced help and get him scoped for ulcers if you haven't already done so as they could be causing your boys bad behaviour.

 

[shoegal22]

thanks tabithakat64, his owner was shocked st his behaviour and gave me some tips, but its awkward being on my own. I am riding him tomorrow, just a nice hack (I hope!) and try and remind him of the fact that good behaviour results in nice things. Did you get back your horses respect? Im not sure what point to say "ok he's getting dangerous and we,re not gonna gel" or to think "ok mister, you are just gonna have to learn that Im boss and thats that"

 

[Pearlsasinger]

When he is tied up, can he get to nibble at some hay? If not, that would be my first suggestion. I guess he has brought his tack with him,are you absolutely certain that it all fits? Check that the browband is not too short. Have you stripped the tack down to clean it? Are you sure that you put all back together exactly as it was? It seems odd that the behaviour started suddenly, if it was because of anything other than pain, I would expect it to come on gradually and increase if he got away with it.

My mare was sold to me as a biter, the previous owner always tied her up short and put a flash bridle on quickly when tacking up. I bought her with tack and realised when I got her home that the browband was too short. I also had to retrain her to have her saddle and rugs on without getting upset. I feed her an ulcer-friendly diet. She still sometimes pulls a face but has NEVER bitten me in the 4 1/2 yrs I have owned her.
She was aso very wary of having 2 people in the stable with her, we think that was because she was expecting the 2nd person to hit her if she threatened to bite. Far better IMO to work out why the horse is threatening/what it is trying to tell you.

 

[Barnacle]

If he's fine for everyone else, you are the problem. I think you sound like you may not be coming across assertive enough. Do you lunge or free school him at all? Try it if not. That'll give him a better idea of which way around things are meant to be and you should get a feel for asking him to do what you want. He doesn't sound dangerous except for you - so you need to figure out what about your behaviour requires adjustment and go from there. I would also suggest finding someone experienced who can watch you, tell you what to do and make you do it!

 

[shoegal22]

Oh yes, definitely me! Somewhere at some point he has seen something that has led him to think 'I'm in charge' or perhaps 'I'm not safe with her', nothing can be pin pointed though to me at the mo.
I can 90% rule out pain bar a fully body scan! Everything has been checked as it was my first instinct.
I am loathed to give him hay when doing the things a 16 year old knows he needs to do... Does that make sense? Standing and being respectful when grooming, feet wtc is IMO essential for both my safety and the horses. Mixed signals if I now leave a hat net up as his s*****g about has resulted in a tasty treat.
I think I will try the free school/ lunging. I'm hoping my instructor Is coming this weekend. A few other 'experienced' people have said the same thing- let him no your the boss! I am not one for getting into a fight wit a horse, although I'm standing my ground and giving a slap on his belly if he try's to kick, or he'll meet my elbow if he trys to bite. Unfortunately being on your own ( although lots of upsides, rent etc) can have its downfalls, no one around to call on. I've considered moving him, but what use will upsetting him again and having mixed signals from different handlers... Should have said, same owner since 3 before he came to me and he was extremely well cared for.

 

[JillA]

Get your local Intelligent Horsemanship Recommended Associate (RA) out http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html They are trained to a standard, accredited and usually not all that expensive. They will assess how you are with him and vice versa, start showing you how to deal with the problem and give you exercises to continue doing before they return (if they think you need it) to continue the good work. Usually not that difficult to turn around but can be changed by some fairly subtle body language which he understands..

 

[fburton]

A few other 'experienced' people have said the same thing- let him no your the boss!

I note you put 'experienced' in quotes. Imo, this is unhelpful advice. Many horses don't respond well to being antagonized and some fight back. You're right to be wary of getting into a fight.

 

[Goldenstar]

So how was he when they handled him at the vets when they scoped him for ulcers .

 

[Dry Rot]

Something is upsetting him for sure. I've heard a few stories about aggressive horses and sometimes they do seem a puzzle. What we sometimes forget is that animals don't necessarily think in the same reasoned patterns that we humans do. That may sound obvious, but it's not! Animals cope with fear by instinct, not logic.

We were working on a yearling here and she was being a bit tetchy about having her feet lifted. Not bad, just objecting. Then someone I would call a 'professional' turned up and demonstrated the "proper" way to do it. The yearling continued to object and the pro made zero progress, so after five minutes he just stopped saying, "Well, if you do that every day for a week, she'll be fine". She wasn't! I've never seen a youngster kick like that and she meant it! I think she continued trying a rapid succession of lethal kicks in response to gentle stroking with a long stick for at least 30 minutes before we finally gave up!

We resumed training a week later, starting by gentling grooming the bits we could get at without being killed. She did slowly settled down and is now fine with having her feet lifted and in fact a total sweetie! Work that one out. My own thoughts are that she was kicking in self defence against what she perceived as a threat. We just needed to get across to her that we were not trying to hurt her and having feet/legs touched was not an attack. The age old issue of trust.

I suspect that is the issue here. The OP's body language is, to her horse, unusual and threatening -- as well it might be when a nervous person is attempting to handle a horse she does not fully trust. The hay net is not a reward for bad behaviour but a distraction. Herbivores will often graze to reduce stress. It's what the behaviourists call a displacement activity. Sometimes it pays to sit down and try to think like a horse.

I think the problem here is for the OP to try to convince the horse that she is not a threat but a friend. That doesn't mean give in to softness. Cerainly a loud shout and a smack for attempting to bite, but it should not come to that. Watch for subtle body language and forestall aggressive behaviour with reassurance, not a warning. Yes, I realise now that we made mistakes with lifting the yearling's feet, but we learnt from it. My impression is that horses are not naturally aggressive and mostly react when they feel threatened. Attempting to correct what we humans see as bad behaviour can easily be interpretted by the horse as an attack.

I haven't explained that very well but it has helped me clear my own thoughts on the subject by putting it in writing. I probably ought to hit 'Cancel" now, rather than 'Post"!

 

[Pinkvboots]

Oh yes, definitely me! Somewhere at some point he has seen something that has led him to think 'I'm in charge' or perhaps 'I'm not safe with her', nothing can be pin pointed though to me at the mo.
I can 90% rule out pain bar a fully body scan! Everything has been checked as it was my first instinct.
I am loathed to give him hay when doing the things a 16 year old knows he needs to do... Does that make sense? Standing and being respectful when grooming, feet wtc is IMO essential for both my safety and the horses. Mixed signals if I now leave a hat net up as his s*****g about has resulted in a tasty treat.
I think I will try the free school/ lunging. I'm hoping my instructor Is coming this weekend. A few other 'experienced' people have said the same thing- let him no your the boss! I am not one for getting into a fight wit a horse, although I'm standing my ground and giving a slap on his belly if he try's to kick, or he'll meet my elbow if he trys to bite. Unfortunately being on your own ( although lots of upsides, rent etc) can have its downfalls, no one around to call on. I've considered moving him, but what use will upsetting him again and having mixed signals from different handlers... Should have said, same owner since 3 before he came to me and he was extremely well cared for.

You say you don't want to give him hay when he comes in, is he living out? Is there plenty of grass ? Because if his hungry when his brought in he will be upset, I have seen it so many times on yards where people bring there horses in and tie them up with nothing and they are hungry, and then they wonder why they won't stand still.

Also Arabs are very clever I know I have two they often don't cope well with change and can get very attached to there owners and carers, maybe he is feeling a bit insecure about being moved now he is no longer with someone he knows and trusts.

 

[fburton]

I probably ought to hit 'Cancel" now, rather than 'Post"!

I'm very glad you didn't, DR!

 

[paddi22]

the horse won't associate the lack of a haynet with punishment for its bad behaviour at all. They don't think like that. It's better to tie them up with something, so they are distracted and can nibble. If horse is ok with other people than the issue is you. I was in the same boat with a particular horse who was difficult to handle and unnerved me, and I worked with a NH guy who was amazing. One session in groundwork sorted out the issues. He could see clearly I wasn't doing basic stuff like handling properly and leading correctly. We got it sorted out very quickly and once the basics were there the issues went. I'd had horses for over 30 years and I just hadn't realised my body language was different with this particular one!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Something is upsetting him for sure. I've heard a few stories about aggressive horses and sometimes they do seem a puzzle. What we sometimes forget is that animals don't necessarily think in the same reasoned patterns that we humans do. That may sound obvious, but it's not! Animals cope with fear by instinct, not logic.

We were working on a yearling here and she was being a bit tetchy about having her feet lifted. Not bad, just objecting. Then someone I would call a 'professional' turned up and demonstrated the "proper" way to do it. The yearling continued to object and the pro made zero progress, so after five minutes he just stopped saying, "Well, if you do that every day for a week, she'll be fine". She wasn't! I've never seen a youngster kick like that and she meant it! I think she continued trying a rapid succession of lethal kicks in response to gentle stroking with a long stick for at least 30 minutes before we finally gave up!

We resumed training a week later, starting by gentling grooming the bits we could get at without being killed. She did slowly settled down and is now fine with having her feet lifted and in fact a total sweetie! Work that one out. My own thoughts are that she was kicking in self defence against what she perceived as a threat. We just needed to get across to her that we were not trying to hurt her and having feet/legs touched was not an attack. The age old issue of trust.

I suspect that is the issue here. The OP's body language is, to her horse, unusual and threatening -- as well it might be when a nervous person is attempting to handle a horse she does not fully trust. The hay net is not a reward for bad behaviour but a distraction. Herbivores will often graze to reduce stress. It's what the behaviourists call a displacement activity. Sometimes it pays to sit down and try to think like a horse.

I think the problem here is for the OP to try to convince the horse that she is not a threat but a friend. That doesn't mean give in to softness. Cerainly a loud shout and a smack for attempting to bite, but it should not come to that. Watch for subtle body language and forestall aggressive behaviour with reassurance, not a warning. Yes, I realise now that we made mistakes with lifting the yearling's feet, but we learnt from it. My impression is that horses are not naturally aggressive and mostly react when they feel threatened. Attempting to correct what we humans see as bad behaviour can easily be interpretted by the horse as an attack.

I haven't explained that very well but it has helped me clear my own thoughts on the subject by putting it in writing. I probably ought to hit 'Cancel" now, rather than 'Post"!

this is a really good post

OP your horse may be 'trying it on' but IME, horses rarely do this, its not worth their while. Now they might seem like they are doing it, if they don't trust the handler for whatever reason and feel like they need to be in charge, or because body language etc is off or discomfort, or diet (my old horse was a souk, but give him alfalfa and you couldn't get near him for biting)-any number of reasons. There are cues that can tell you if behaviour pain, fear or general high spirits. From my own horses I know they get fractious if hungry or cold.
You say your horse is a veteran, was he with his last owner for long?

 

[shoegal22]

Something is upsetting him for sure. I've heard a few stories about aggressive horses and sometimes they do seem a puzzle. What we sometimes forget is that animals don't necessarily think in the same reasoned patterns that we humans do. That may sound obvious, but it's not! Animals cope with fear by instinct, not logic.

We were working on a yearling here and she was being a bit tetchy about having her feet lifted. Not bad, just objecting. Then someone I would call a 'professional' turned up and demonstrated the "proper" way to do it. The yearling continued to object and the pro made zero progress, so after five minutes he just stopped saying, "Well, if you do that every day for a week, she'll be fine". She wasn't! I've never seen a youngster kick like that and she meant it! I think she continued trying a rapid succession of lethal kicks in response to gentle stroking with a long stick for at least 30 minutes before we finally gave up!

We resumed training a week later, starting by gentling grooming the bits we could get at without being killed. She did slowly settled down and is now fine with having her feet lifted and in fact a total sweetie! Work that one out. My own thoughts are that she was kicking in self defence against what she perceived as a threat. We just needed to get across to her that we were not trying to hurt her and having feet/legs touched was not an attack. The age old issue of trust.

I suspect that is the issue here. The OP's body language is, to her horse, unusual and threatening -- as well it might be when a nervous person is attempting to handle a horse she does not fully trust. The hay net is not a reward for bad behaviour but a distraction. Herbivores will often graze to reduce stress. It's what the behaviourists call a displacement activity. Sometimes it pays to sit down and try to think like a horse.

I think the problem here is for the OP to try to convince the horse that she is not a threat but a friend. That doesn't mean give in to softness. Cerainly a loud shout and a smack for attempting to bite, but it should not come to that. Watch for subtle body language and forestall aggressive behaviour with reassurance, not a warning. Yes, I realise now that we made mistakes with lifting the yearling's feet, but we learnt from it. My impression is that horses are not naturally aggressive and mostly react when they feel threatened. Attempting to correct what we humans see as bad behaviour can easily be interpretted by the horse as an attack.

I haven't explained that very well but it has helped me clear my own thoughts on the subject by putting it in writing. I probably ought to hit 'Cancel" now, rather than 'Post"!

No this makes absolute sense! It's definitely me! My friend who is not involved tacked him up three days ago and groomed him and he stood dozing! When I went near him the cow kicking and trying to bite started! He was lovely at first and it was like a trigger. I have suspicions but they may sound daft:
* about two weeks ago on a really hot day he nipped me when I was grooming him. He was being fine but on his 4th foot he nipped my arm, not hard and it took me a couple of seconds to realise what had happened. He looked petrified so I made a fuss of him ( I no I no, shoot me now!) rugged him later and he was fine
* day after his owner visited him and that afternoon his behaviour switched
* also that day he moved up the pecking order, he stood his ground with the companion horse I was borrowing until he arrived and he moved up a rank, she did not bother him again and was very submissive. She went home a few days ago. Was he trying to get above me.
*discussuon with his vet said they felt it was uneccesary to scope for ulcers as his diet isn't high in grain, he is fine with other people doing girth etc and isn't shoeih any resistance when riding. The procedure isn't the nicest- I know he would hate being starved, let alone a tube up his nostril! I will however insist if things do not improve
Could any of these cause a quick change? I have asked a behaviour specialist to come out and hoping to have an appointment this week.
Oh and today, after a change of tactic, fiancé ( non- horsey) at his head to help prevent biting, we managed after initial kicking out to clean all four feet and brush his tail! Rewards, then saddle on slowly but in without lifting his foot! After riding him I popped his rug on and he was fine! So I like the idea of reassurance as I'm now quite good at reading his signs, and rewarding the good ( albeit normal!) behaviour.
Still petrified of the back feet tho!

 

[shoegal22]

Yes, he has been with his owner since he was 3, he's now 16. Lovely 5*home. It's probably a shock to come to my little farm with my thewell pony, big ol'cob and various noisy things like dogs, children, chickens. None of it fazed him and his initial settling in period was brilliant! There is plenty of food and his is on a small feed of calm+condition and hi fi in the evening as was his routine at home. Out 24/7 although I bring them in for dinner. No extra hay currently as still so much grass. He's rugged at night.
I really appreciate everyone's advice. I no it's something I'm doing, and trying to replicate the owner is hard- I think I'm doing the right thing but clearly not. I'm glad there has been situations where you guys have had similar probs. I'm hoping the groundwork session will help.
It's tough, Ive had quirky horses in the past and as I've expected it I suppose my body language was like "stop your nonsense" where his came from
Both ends in a day it has really knocked my confidence with him 😞

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It sounds as if you have approached him with a "You WILL do what I want" attitude. IME (and I have plenty) the best way to approach a horse is to encourage it to want to work with you and to make it easy for it to do so.
Why should a 16 yr old horse stand tied up with nothing to do while someone unfamiliar, with threatening body language, pokes and prods him?

Work *with* the horse, make it easy and pleasant for him to do the right thing, rather than thinking of him as an enemy to be vanquished, or a subordinate to be dominated and you will both enjoy the experience far more.

I have to say, if this were my horse, it would be going home asap. I prefer people to treat my horses kindly, not spoil them or bully them.

 

[Barnacle]

Oh yes, definitely me! Somewhere at some point he has seen something that has led him to think 'I'm in charge' or perhaps 'I'm not safe with her', nothing can be pin pointed though to me at the mo.
I can 90% rule out pain bar a fully body scan! Everything has been checked as it was my first instinct.
I am loathed to give him hay when doing the things a 16 year old knows he needs to do... Does that make sense? Standing and being respectful when grooming, feet wtc is IMO essential for both my safety and the horses. Mixed signals if I now leave a hat net up as his s*****g about has resulted in a tasty treat.
I think I will try the free school/ lunging. I'm hoping my instructor Is coming this weekend. A few other 'experienced' people have said the same thing- let him no your the boss! I am not one for getting into a fight wit a horse, although I'm standing my ground and giving a slap on his belly if he try's to kick, or he'll meet my elbow if he trys to bite. Unfortunately being on your own ( although lots of upsides, rent etc) can have its downfalls, no one around to call on. I've considered moving him, but what use will upsetting him again and having mixed signals from different handlers... Should have said, same owner since 3 before he came to me and he was extremely well cared for.

I personally wouldn't hit or elbow the horse. I would carry a whip and use the whip in the air (not near his head) or on the ground as a 'warning'. A lot of people have suggested fear as a reason for this behaviour. If the horse is fine with everyone else, including strangers, it's obviously not fear unless you, specifically, have frightened it.

I also keep finding myself reminding people that horses are very frequently aggressive towards each other and aggression need not come from fear. Horses telling each other to move away from the nice patch of grass or settling some hierarchical issue are acting aggressively. It's not a big deal between horses so we perhaps don't notice it much but when it's directed at us, it's more of an issue. I see absolutely no reason to presume the horse is fearful when in fact he might be mildly annoyed by your 'interference' with his life. Totally natural for him to feel that way and more likely, given that he was fine with a stranger (your friend) with whom he won't have established an 'understanding' yet. But just as he won't kick at the horse above him in the hierarchy when she says "move off my patch", so he shouldn't kick you when you ask him to do something.

Giving him a haynet to distract him and rewarding good behaviour are certainly worthwhile IMO. You might, if nothing else, establish a pleasant routine whereby he forgets about telling you to leave him alone... But I hope you get something a bit more fundamental from your groundwork session. Let us know how it goes!

 

[shoegal22]

I have to say, if this were my horse, it would be going home asap. I prefer people to treat my horses kindly, not spoil them or bully them.[/QUOTE]

Thank you ^^ but I would not say I am a bully / spoil them ( but misunderstood on that one TBH). First course of action was to contact his owner to seek her advice and she came the next day, she watched and was shocked as it was out of character, she showed me how she would deal with it and I have followed suit. I treat my horses extremely kindly, as I said previous quirky horses have meant I was prepared, prepared for that kick or bite or nap etc so we avoided it through slow progression of making the horse feel comfortable about what was happening, not beating the living daylights out of them or turbo feeding polos with one hand while doing the feet with the other.
All animals in my care are show kindness, respect and love - although various members disagree with horses understanding that emotion- it's difficukt as an animal lover not to demonstrate that emotion.
I feel through the posts that have hugely helped that at some point my body language has changed, causing him to fear/ dominate while on the ground. This is what needs to be worked on.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Yes, he has been with his owner since he was 3, he's now 16. Lovely 5*home. It's probably a shock to come to my little farm with my thewell pony, big ol'cob and various noisy things like dogs, children, chickens. None of it fazed him and his initial settling in period was brilliant! There is plenty of food and his is on a small feed of calm+condition and hi fi in the evening as was his routine at home. Out 24/7 although I bring them in for dinner. No extra hay currently as still so much grass. He's rugged at night.
I really appreciate everyone's advice. I no it's something I'm doing, and trying to replicate the owner is hard- I think I'm doing the right thing but clearly not. I'm glad there has been situations where you guys have had similar probs. I'm hoping the groundwork session will help.
It's tough, Ive had quirky horses in the past and as I've expected it I suppose my body language was like "stop your nonsense" where his came from
Both ends in a day it has really knocked my confidence with him ��

can the owner not come round and help you more? The more you get scared/nervous around him, the worse your body language will get and the situation may get worse. Thirteen years of being handled by one person and then a new one could equal a lot of change. Plus, it has to be said, what one handler finds acceptable behaviour, another may find intolerable so a bit of time accustoming yourself to what his owner does would be worthwhile.As others have said, don't demonize him for showing unwanted behaviour, he's a horse and is reacting-it's not personal, correct it/address it and move on.

Some horses are more socially ambitious than others and upsets in the herd can lead to changes in behaviour to the handler but do not get hung up on whether he's trying to 'be above you' or not. If your handling of him is consistent and fair he'll get to know whats acceptable with you regardless of what happens in the paddock.

 

[Pinkvboots]

It must be such a change for him his been at the same home a long time, I have had one of my Arabs since he was 2 his now 11 he recently had to stay at the vets overnight, they put him in a huge stable and then couldn't catch him so they had to come and get me from the waiting room to get a headcollar on him, the nurse said he was standing in the corner facing the wall unil he heard my voice then he turned round and came to the door, I know if I sold him the new owners would have a bit of a nightmare for a while, my guess is this horse is feeling a bit insecure and lost I think with a bit of time he will settle and once he trusts you he will be fine.

 

[Cortez]

Why should a 16 yr old horse stand tied up with nothing to do while someone unfamiliar, with threatening body language, pokes and prods him?

Because that is what is required of a mannerly horse, actually. Tying up for however long is needed and doing as asked is just good manners, no hay nets or other inducements need be applied.

 

[tabithakat64]

thanks tabithakat64, his owner was shocked st his behaviour and gave me some tips, but its awkward being on my own. I am riding him tomorrow, just a nice hack (I hope!) and try and remind him of the fact that good behaviour results in nice things. Did you get back your horses respect? Im not sure what point to say "ok he's getting dangerous and we,re not gonna gel" or to think "ok mister, you are just gonna have to learn that Im boss and thats that"

It was never that he didn't respect me, upon further investigation he'd had an abusive past and then been allowed to get away with lots of behaviour including biting and kicking when being tacked up that isn't acceptable.
Once he had clear boundaries he was 99% fine with me but would try 'naughty' behaviour with new people especially those who lacked confidence as this is obvious in a persons body language or if I was having an off day as he could read it in my body language.

He was never beaten but would receive a tap of the crop on the shoulder or it would be used on my boot as the noise deterred him. Giving a polo as praise for acceptable behaviour worked well as he was extremely food motivated having been starved as a youngster. The praise alone was eventually enough.

 

[tabithakat64]

Because that is what is required of a mannerly horse, actually. Tying up for however long is needed and doing as asked is just good manners, no hay nets or other inducements need be applied.

Umm this, I expect any horse to be able to be safely handled, tied up and tacked up.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Umm this, I expect any horse to be able to be safely handled, tied up and tacked up.

So do I but if it doesn't, getting cross won't help anything, while distracting it with a haynet or similar might well make a difference.
In fact, I don't tie my horses, I expect them to stand still gto be groomed/tacked up without being tied p and they do becasue they know what I expect but if I get a new one that doesn't understand my expectations, I work with them until they do. I don't try to force them into behaving the way I want them to 'becasue they should do it'.

 

[Cortez]

So do I but if it doesn't, getting cross won't help anything, while distracting it with a haynet or similar might well make a difference.
In fact, I don't tie my horses, I expect them to stand still gto be groomed/tacked up without being tied p and they do becasue they know what I expect but if I get a new one that doesn't understand my expectations, I work with them until they do. I don't try to force them into behaving the way I want them to 'becasue they should do it'.

What do you do at a show, or in any other situation that requires a horse to stand tied then?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Of course, in a situation where it is imperative that the horse is tied, such as on the wagon, the hroses all tie BUT they have been educated to do so. My horses are also trained to groundtie, although I would only do that at home. I certainly do not routinely tie up in the stable and have no need to becasue they all stand still while being groomed etc.
However, my original point was that there is no reason to expect a horse to tie up just becasue it it is 16. If it has been in the same home for many years, as the one in OP has, it may not be used to being tied up to be groomed etc and as it is obviously uncomfrtable in the situation, a haynet or similar, would be useful to distract it and allow the loaner to work with it in greater safety.
I really dislike the attitude of "It must do it because I say so", rather than setting the horse up to succeed by providing it with something simple like a haynet.

 

[Gixxernic]

Sounds like he doesnt yet trust you fully, it can take some time and as i have been in the same boat as you i have experience of this, i bought a mare, had her for 5 weeks, checked everything, no pain, she was biting me and my son, rearing to and from the field and generally just being a complete idiot, i had tried her 3 times beforehand, i put it doen to settling down issues, except i just wasn't prepared to put up with it any longer , i asked the previous owner to take her back . Thankfully she did and she reared the first day and since then has been a complete angel. I had done join up etc with her and nothing made a difference.

But thats not to say it will be the same for you, try join up, try a calmer just to take the edge off the behaviour? Its worth a try.. I think he may just be testing you and if he is stick at it and show him who is boss 😄

 

[fburton]

I think he may just be testing you and if he is stick at it and show him who is boss ��

What is the best way to show a horse you are boss? What would be the most appropriate way in this situation?

 

[Gixxernic]

At any attempt of biting smack his neck and firmly tell him no! Consistently doing this he will soon learn.. Have u tried join up?