done to death but advice needed-agrresive or trying it on?

[Horsemanship]

You probably need some lessons in old fashioned Horsemanship? I get a lot of horses given, free, because of dangerous behavior and they ALL turn into very loving, happy people within a couple of weeks. You have to find the reason for the behavior and act on it. It may be pain, fear of pain, memory of pain, fear itself or total lack of respect for you. It is doubtful, due to what you say, to be fear itself.

Steps to take:
Swap your grooming brush for a much softer one. I had a horse given once who would kill anyone who went near when he was tied up. His problem was sensitive skin, poor lad, and a brush with too coarse a bristle on it. Changed to a very soft one and he was a sweetie in a couple of days and sold to a novice within the week, who still owns him, 8 years later.
If you are not riding in the same saddle as his old owner, then suspect the saddle - no matter what a 'fitter' tells you. Your horse is the ONLY one who can tell you if it is comfortable or not.
If you can 100% rule out PAIN, then you must get a complete personality change as far as this horse is concerned, and grow horns. I don't mean that you are at all cruel, but you have to make the horse respect you by demanding his co-operation, using reward and relief when he does the right thing and being 100% consistent with your rules, - rules that must be FAIR in his eyes.

Good luck. xx

 

[Gixxernic]

Very good advice there! ����

 

[shoegal22]

ive contacted a couple of equine behaviourisists but yet to be able to pin one down for an appointment as this I think is the way forward and prob to give me some confidence! It's 99% not pain! I think I said everything bar a full body scan and ulcer scope has been done. I use his original grooming kit, it's his original tack... Everything! I've tried the same tact as his owner who within minutes had calmed he behaviour but with me it's like he would fight till I gave up. I'm currently using a reward / discipline approach upon his owners advice, so attempt to bite or kick is given a swift smack on shoulder ( he will try to kick again so gets told again then gives up unless really tetchy and will go for a third!) and told no... The rest of the time is lots of stroking and 'Good boys' after each foot an inch of carrot after standing up the same and tacking up/ rigging the same. He's now added trying to refuse to come out of the stable after his feed but I'm
Not scared of getting him out- I'm only watching one end so to speak, picking out his feet im watching getting a boot and or bite! He's truly such a lovely boy, this isn't painting him in the best picture, but if he wasn't I would have admitted defeat.
Any advice of calmers? I'd consider trying to make him a little less anxious - TIA

 

[Gixxernic]

I use equine America magnitude, find it good , and good value for money 19.99 for a tub that will last 6 months

 

[shoegal22]

I use equine America magnitude, find it good , and good value for money 19.99 for a tub that will last 6 months

Thank you! If I can ease his nerves and mine then it might help!

 

[Barnacle]

ive contacted a couple of equine behaviourisists but yet to be able to pin one down for an appointment as this I think is the way forward and prob to give me some confidence!

Where are you located? Maybe someone can help put you in touch with someone...

 

[shoegal22]

Im in kent, I'm waiting to hear back from a lady called Suzanne Halsey and I can't remember the other one without getting my email

 

[JillA]

I use equine America magnitude, find it good , and good value for money 19.99 for a tub that will last 6 months

Most calmers contain magnesium oxide, which you can get off ebay, and which will only calm him if his spookiness is due to a magnesium deficiency. Worth a try IME, if it is going to help it does so in about 10 days.
If that doesn't help, then you maybe need some strategies to enable him to cope with life. Such as standing back and letting him problem solve, and remaining calm while he does - for example I sometimes let a lead rope trail. If a horse stands on it, he has to discover all he has to do is lift his foot - panicking and stressing doesn't help, and doesn't get you rushing to his aid. Keep as calm as you can, and "allow" him, so long as serious injury isn't going to be the result. If you need to intervene, just do it calmly and without shouting. Mark Rashid never talks when he is working with horses - he reckons talking enables you to display your emotions, and emotions is the last thing you need when you are dealing with an insecure horse.

 

[Gixxernic]

Also top spec calmer is a herbal one! Maybe that would help? Check all feed he is on too, you can get mollichaf calmer, some non heating mixes actually make horses fizzy or tetchy, so look out for that too

 

[shoegal22]

Ok, I haven't tried the calmer yet and still haven't heard from either of the professionals with a date. I have used the approach of avoiding the kicking and biting as much as I can. Yesterday I managed to do all four feet with a cube Of carrot and lots of fuss after each one, saddled fine but he kicked off with his bridle! Head high and refusing his bit. As I only had his mouth to watch I was fine so after his buggering about and pulling. Me around I got it on. But when I put his rug on last night he was awful... Cow kicking with a venom. I told him off and it made him worse. How would you all cope with a horse that cow kicks and retaliates? I tried the whip approach last night and smacked the ground.

 

[WandaMare]

Personally if he was messing about when I was rugging him, I would put on his lunging tack and march him (not tensely or stroppily , just assertively) into the arena and make him work until he does something good for me. I have always found when new horses question me that lunging and long-lining is the best way to reassert my leadership. When the session is finished they get a good fuss and they tend to be easier to handle when they get a bit tired.

 

[D66]

What are you feeding him? Its possible that the move has caused stress and that has caused some internal inflammation, i.e. ulcerous changes. although your vet is correct in saying he is not the classic candidate he could still be affected to some extent, and the nipping, difficulty tacking up and rugging suggests discomfort.
I'd feed an ulcer friendly diet and an ulcer supplement for a couple of weeks to see if it makes a difference and go from there.

 

[tabithakat64]

You're doing well, keep persevering things won't change instantly. Fake being confident until you actually have it, remember to breathe when you're tacking up etc as we all tend to hold our breathe when we're anxious.
Try and get some expert help. They can actually see how your horse is behaving and we can't, all we can do is offer advice based on our own experiences.
The ulcer friendly diet is probably worth a try too.

 

[RhaLoulou]

Really interesting thread and opinions. Not sure if this will make sense OP but I have just got a new horse who isn't the most straight forward, and I am maintaining a neutral position, after all I don't know him too well yet and he doesn't know me. I've spent the last few weeks observing his behaviour seeing what works and what doesn't. We are all individuals, human and equine and as much as I know exactly how I want him to behave I have to find the best way for us both to get there in a peaceful manner. I am also using a trusted professional to work with.

 

[Gixxernic]

Id rub something really tasty on the bit , encourage him to lower his head and open his mouth, consistently do this and he will soon learn, but i agree with the long reigning , sounds like he has some issues, not with you but in general its all about routine and consistency

 

[Gixxernic]

I meant to add having not long ago got a new horse i too am learning lol... My hubby had a bad accident 3 weeks ago broken leg in two places, one an open break. So i hadnt ridden my boy for 17 days, being the nice placid soul he is i thought , just a nice wee quiet hack with another horse will probably be relaxing enough ... It was for the first part, then the horse we were with started napping, so bad she got off then a van driver came flying round the corner peeping his horn! Well that was my boy, bunny hopping, rearing , trying to bronc cause he got himself so worked up . After 15 mins and nearly ending up on a car bonnet i got off too, took him 10 mins walking to calm him down, i was mad, but another 10 mins he was trying to cuddle into me walking home , took him straight into the arena and lunged him for 10 minutes and then got back on! Wanted to make sure there was no other issues. He was fine. So been hacking him and working him since, until last night we were out and behind a high hedge and a horse was doing a stampede and as soon as he could see the horse he started prancing and swishing his head but i kept a positive leg on and calmly talked to him,lots of good boys and we got through it with ease! Turns out he just needs the extra security, being an ex racer i guess . Takes just one moment like that to upset him, typical sensitive tb! Lol 😄

 

[shoegal22]

Well, I've got a lady booked ( Suzanne Halsey ) for 3rd October. It's a way off but in the meantime im working with the advice that is working, avoiding the bad stuff as much as possible and so far so good. It's hard work but that's horses eh! 15 minutes to put a rug on! Ha! I appreciate all the advice, im so glad the consensus isn't to give up and send him back. I am willing to exhaust every avenue to build up a lovely bond with this boy. I will try the bit idea tomorrow and see how he improves, any suggestions?

 

[WandaMare]

Maybe leave the rugs for now, its not massively cold yet and if its undoing your hard work at building a relationship with him it might not be worth it. One of mine came to me with a big issue around rugging and it turned out that she had been rugged all summer 'to keep her clean' even in temps > 20 degrees in summer. I only rug her now if its constant rain or if temps drop below 5 degrees, saves all the hassle!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If you really need to rug, for some reason, try approaching him from the 'wrong' side and adjusting the rug as much as possible from there. Do you fold the rug into 4 and place it on him carefully, unfolding it as you go?

 

[shoegal22]

I rug him as he's an older boy (16) and his owner has asked when it's chillier at night or with the heavy rain, stick his lightweight on. She is worried with him dropping too much weight going into winter. He was also like it with his fly rug. Days like yesterday were brilliant as he can go naked! I've seen a lot use the rugs to keep them clean 😳. I do the quartering of the rug and actually do approach from the wrong side as this is better! So there is lots of reward and praise and keeping his attention. The frustration is that this happened over night! He was perfect before. My 6 year of could have rugged him, dragged over the steps and used fiddly fingers and he would have stood dozing ( I didn't let Her obviously - new horse!)
Ah well, hopefully he will be good to ride tonight, he hasn't been ridden since Sunday so I wonder if there will be a new 'surprsise' for me!

 

[Barnacle]

Sounds to me like your issue is just that you aren't persisting enough (with the rug). He sounds like he got annoyed, you said 'no', he got annoyed more - so you backed off. You can't do that. You have to say 'no' again. This horse isn't a youngster - this isn't something new to him and he was fine with it before... With the rug, I'd be inclined to take him out on a lunge line and start tossing it over him rhythmically as if desensitising until he stops reacting. I presume he isn't actually scared of it but he's evidently irritated by it. Keep tossing it over until he stops reacting - then stop. Repeat and again wait until he stops reacting, then stop tossing it over. If he's not reacting, buckle up, wait a few seconds, remove. Repeat. Give him a treat when he stops fussing as well if you want. It might take hours but he should give up before you do.

For the bit, I've had to solve this problem with a few horses a bunch of times. One problem you may have is how you hold the bridle. People have a tendency to use both hands to push the bit in the mouth - I use my left for this and my right to stabilise the head. If you don't know what I mean, you can probably find illustrations on the internet - it's conventional, just less common, and you should get into the habit of doing it that way instead. I start by standing next to them with the bridle, then put the bridle down. Then I take a polo mint and put it by their mouth so they can lick and taste it. I then put my right arm up and around their head without applying any pressure - just so it's there - doesn't even need to be touching. And lower my left hand down and towards me so that the horse bends its head not only down but also around my body (standing at the shoulder). This forces the head to lower and makes it hard for them to pull away. I give the polo and repeat. After 3-4 times, most horses are now lowering their head and putting it down and around me when I raise my right arm. Then you bring the bridle in - don't bother with the bit - just raise the bridle with your right arm but don't put the bit in (so just slip the noseband etc on but stop there). Give the polo. Repeat. Once the horse has the idea, start pushing the bit in with the polo but don't slip the ears in. Take the bridle off again. Repeat. Eventually you can put the bridle on fully with minimal effort. You'll be able to hold the head down if you need to because of where the horse is placing its head for you (down and flexed to the left) but you shouldn't have to anyway. I'd then not ride. I'd leave the horse in with a haynet for a bit and let it get the idea that a bridle on means some quiet time with hay. Don't leave him long though - maybe 5-10 mins. Then take the bridle off and maybe put a headcollar on and lunge a little instead if you want to still exercise him. I would do this for a few days, not riding in the bridle and instead letting him stand with some hay (could ride in the headcollar if you think he'll be ok...). After that, you can begin to alternate between riding and not. If you have the time, you can tack up and leave him for a bit. Then untack. Then come back and tack up and ride. And switch it around. That way he won't know when a bridle = riding and when it means quiet time and hay (you can also give treats or do something 'fun' like trick training or such with the bridle on - just don't actually use it).

In addition, check the height of the bit in the horse's mouth when you do get it on and perhaps loosen it. Most people suggest two wrinkles but there's really no genuinely good reason for this... The looser it is, the less it'll be pulling at rest (and the more fine-tuned your cues can be). I prefer for it to just create a bulge on the lips and no more. That way it's stable and won't hit the teeth but doesn't constantly pull up and relieves the pill also. Would add I do all this untied - if the horse is tied, it's more restricted in its movement to start with and this can actually make this harder. If you are worried about doing it untied, put the headcollar around his neck so his head is free but he's less able to turn around and kick.

 

[paddlingfuriously]

I can't help at all, but am giving you every ounce of sympathy - I am in a fairly similar situation with my daughter's pony. He came to us with a reputation of being difficult to catch, he had been with the same very experienced owner for years, then on loan for 6 months, where the rider was scared of him, we were told because he was too fast. (I now wonder...)
He then spent a few months at a friend's yard before coming to us, so poor boy has had an unsettling time this year.
Even with his long term owner he was hard to catch in the field. In the first week or two here I noticed him kicking out at our dog who used to always come down to the field with me. But he has now started turning his butt towards anyone approaching him in the field and increasingly frequently he kicks out with his hind legs before cantering off a few yards.
I know that this is my fault -
I know that I haven't been dealing with this properly as I am not very experienced, I have never had a pony who has behaved like this.
I also had my daughter and her younger siblings with me the first few times and I was just keen to get us all away from him. I did stay calm, but I did walk away and take the children out of the field. To be honest, kicking terrifies me because I am a bit of a coward and also because of the small children - and I am sure I have let that show. The upshot being that I have lost confidence, my daughter has lost confidence and worse, is no longer able to go into the field, and consequently isn't as interested in the ponies, the pony has realised that this kind of behaviour gets him the result he wants - ie we leave him alone, and he has now started to behave threateningly in the stable too, refusing to move over, turning his bottom towards me, etc.
I say no, calmly and firmly, but I don't know what to do when you are presented with a horses hind legs like that because I know that any bad behaviour should be attended to immediately with a growl or a gentle smack, but how do you get close enough, if you see what I mean? Obviously from now on I will tie him up in the stall so he can't do that, but it makes me so sad. Whenever I am confident enough to assert myself with him, he behaves much better, so I think it is a dominance thing with him, rather than a fear thing. I Although perhaps he thinks I am a threat - I don't know. I think I am just showing all the wrong body language, although I am trying hard not to. I do think, having got to know him a little, that he is a clever pony who tries it on, and if it gets him what he wants, he pushes it a bit further next time. But it is getting too frightening now. Sometimes I am shaking after getting out of his stable.
We have two other adorable smaller ponies who have never given me a seconds problem, but the whole thing has knocked my confidence so much, I am feeling dejected about taking the whole pony thing any further altogether.
I realise after reading this thread that I immediately need to get professional help from someone in natural horsemanship or something, as I don't think it is going to get better with me.
In the meantime I can't let my children anywhere near him. He is immaculate once he is tacked up and being ridden - but perhaps that is just a matter of time too
Sorry if this is a bit rambly - it is late

 

[Gixxernic]

Take a schooling whip with you , short sharp shock will probably stop it

 

[paddlingfuriously]

Had v useful lesson on handling horses on the ground from riding instructor today - why didn't I do that before? Thank you

 

[shoegal22]

How awful, I feel for you. It should be enjoyable- that's why we do it right? I've got a lady coming out the 3rd October, it's been a while! X

 

[shoegal22]

Had v useful lesson on handling horses on the ground from riding instructor today - why didn't I do that before? Thank you

Made a difference? X

 

[shoegal22]

Little update on my naughty little Sod, culmination of advice taken and a ad hoc approach has improved my confidence which surely will help his, he is now coming back to me for cuddles! Yay! Expert is still booked for the 3rd as still have issues on the ground but no where near as bad as before. I wil update!

 

[paddlingfuriously]

Hi shoegal, yes it did make a huge difference - mainly just for my confidence. It was too wet for my daughter's lesson, so instead she gave me a lesson in handling - so many things, like when I lead him in from the field I should stand in the door and let the pony turn himself in the stable rather than me walking in and turning with him, stuff I just never thought about and due to having a 20 year gap from horses, was v rusty with. How to get him to turn in the stable by standing at his middle and concentrating energy on his hindquarters while gently swinging a rope, etc. That was actually really interesting, because when she did it, he moved his hindquarters away - but when I tried, he swung his bottom towards me 'threateningly' and of course the first time he did it, I jumped and reinforced his theory that by doing that, I will leave him alone. But this time I didn't back down, and did it again and again because I had Instructor with me and since then he has been much more respectful. I am going to ask her for another 'lesson' on the next wet day and I am also going to ask someone to help me do join up with him. I wish I had asked for help three weeks ago when it all started. He is just a clever pony who is finding his feet in a new home and pushing boundaries...
He let me pat him in the field today without any treats and hold on to his head collar for a minute or two while I talked to him - something unthinkable last week.