Done to death I know but rider weight?

How do people justify their argument 'a muscled fit 15 stone rider is better for a horses back than a fat blobby 15 stone one'? I would have thought the slim fit muscled one would exert more pressure than a rider with a larger backside surface area? Weight÷ area=pressure......
 
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I have a 14.3hh cob and I was 15 stone. he is a medium weight cob and for hacking and schooling with a dressage session weekly he was absolutely fine. It did not affect his happiness or performance whether I rode him or my trainer who is I am guessing around 10 stone. He had a full vet check before he was sold and absolutely no problems with his back etc. I do agree that the level of rider may affect the horse as a rider who cannot carry their weight properly when riding, especially in rising and extended rising trot then this could hurt the horses back.
As long as the horse is happy, is being mounted happily and isn't showing any signs of discomfort he should be fine.

A thing to look out for though is that a heavier rider on a horse with a saddle, the saddle may not fit properly, I would get a saddle fitter out to check that the saddle fits correctly still with a heavier rider. I had this problem at first which was causing him to trip due to the saddle coming too far past his shoulder with me riding. The saddler recommended a thick fleece half pad and a riser on the front which worked wonders for him and didn't ever have any other problems.

good luck :)
 
stormox said:
How do people justify their argument 'a muscled fit 15 stone rider is better for a horses back than a fat blobby 15 stone one'? I would have thought the slim fit muscled one would exert more pressure than a rider with a larger backside surface area? Weight÷ area=pressure......
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In theory (and in practice from what I have seen) it is about how that weight is controlled as not to 'slap' back down in the saddle, or be totally off balance and be putting weight unevenly.
 
stormox said:
How do people justify their argument 'a muscled fit 15 stone rider is better for a horses back than a fat blobby 15 stone one'? I would have thought the slim fit muscled one would exert more pressure than a rider with a larger backside surface area? Weight÷ area=pressure......
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But it's all going through the same saddle so makes no difference.
 
alainax said:
Haha I was thinking that but thought I better not open that can of worms :p
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Lol, me too (though I think it is true - their back muscles will develop to carry the load theya re asked to carry, so twin ponies, one asked to carry a light rider for years, one asked to carry a heavy one would be muscled in totally different ways, and if you swapped riders the first one would struggle (and the second bog off with it's light load ;) )
 
Batgirl said:
Lol, me too (though I think it is true - their back muscles will develop to carry the load theya re asked to carry, so twin ponies, one asked to carry a light rider for years, one asked to carry a heavy one would be muscled in totally different ways, and if you swapped riders the first one would struggle (and the second bog off with it's light load ;) )
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When I was riding I always looked for light weight riders to ride mine when I wasn't until my instructor said exactly the same. He was better off carrying similar weights all the time so he was used to it and strong. I stopped riding shortly afterwards so never had the opportunity to test it out, but I think there must be something in it!
 
I'm glad someone mentioned the saddle, though not in detail. If the rider is too big for the saddle then the PSI under it will be too high, and there may be issues with clearance and saddle balance. A horse with a rider too heavy for the saddle may never show healthy back muscle, even if there is no pain associated. There are a lot of horses with otherwise well fitting saddles who have shallow dents especially under the rear of the saddle, totally panel shaped.

In 8 years of saddle fitting ponies and cobs I have only seen one pony obviously struggling with weight, and it was a small child's pony being ridden by a teenager. The damage is subtle and cumulative, and along with my colleagues we suspect that carrying too heavy a weight can possibly cause long term joint issues.

Army horses will be carrying the weight over more than the saddle area so I do not believe we should ever be approaching 25% with saddle and rider. Highland ponies carry massive stags but they're not draped over a 17" saddle!

Short backed cobs etc are often rated as the best weight carriers but can often only take small saddles. Sadly the longer the back the weaker, on average.

Once over the 15% mark then I would recommend as a minimum that a bulky saddle pad is used, preferably a good shock absorbing one, that "bounces back" where the flocking cannot. Flocking can get compressed very quickly by a heavier rider which causes ongoing fitting issues.

As a saddle fitter I try never to offend (I hope my customers would almost all say that I'm kind with them :)), but sometimes it does need saying that the rider is too heavy - unfortunately until all fitters, vets, physical therapists etc sing from the same hymn sheet I will lose work from doing so.
 
I don't ride anymore because 1) I know I weigh too much and 2) my horse is retired through injury anyway (not through my fat arse but through a muscle tear we think she sustained catching her hindquater on a gate or something).

However, when I was younger I had a mare on loan and she was quite long in the back anyway but it was VERY dipped - her old owner was rather large and apparently the mare's back had been "normal" until this larger lady owned her....

But this was many years ago, if it is true I do not know as with a longer back it was always going to be prone to dipping..
 
sbloom said:
I'm glad someone mentioned the saddle, though not in detail. If the rider is too big for the saddle then the PSI under it will be too high, and there may be issues with clearance and saddle balance. A horse with a rider too heavy for the saddle may never show healthy back muscle, even if there is no pain associated. There are a lot of horses with otherwise well fitting saddles who have shallow dents especially under the rear of the saddle, totally panel shaped.

In 8 years of saddle fitting ponies and cobs I have only seen one pony obviously struggling with weight, and it was a small child's pony being ridden by a teenager. The damage is subtle and cumulative, and along with my colleagues we suspect that carrying too heavy a weight can possibly cause long term joint issues.

Army horses will be carrying the weight over more than the saddle area so I do not believe we should ever be approaching 25% with saddle and rider. Highland ponies carry massive stags but they're not draped over a 17" saddle!

Short backed cobs etc are often rated as the best weight carriers but can often only take small saddles. Sadly the longer the back the weaker, on average.

Once over the 15% mark then I would recommend as a minimum that a bulky saddle pad is used, preferably a good shock absorbing one, that "bounces back" where the flocking cannot. Flocking can get compressed very quickly by a heavier rider which causes ongoing fitting issues.

As a saddle fitter I try never to offend (I hope my customers would almost all say that I'm kind with them :)), but sometimes it does need saying that the rider is too heavy - unfortunately until all fitters, vets, physical therapists etc sing from the same hymn sheet I will lose work from doing so.
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What an informative post. Thank you. We often hear on here how vets, physios, instructors etc have said a rider is fine. But in reality, there are very few who would tell someone the truth if it is that they are too heavy for their horse. I did try many years ago with a livery. She was a big girl for her age and was fine when she arrived with a 14hh stocky cob and she was only 11. However, 8 years later and over 15 stone, the horse had all kinds of physical issues. KS, PSD, shoulder lameness. I tried to be tactful and never said she was 'fat' but suggested she may need to think about getting a larger horse as she was no longer a child. It fell on deaf ears. I personally wouldn't bother saying anything to a livery now. It only causes hurt feelings and usually has no effect.
 
Wagtail said:
What an informative post. Thank you. We often hear on here how vets, physios, instructors etc have said a rider is fine. But in reality, there are very few who would tell someone the truth if it is that they are too heavy for their horse.
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You always say this and its not been my experience at all. In fact I had a discussion with my saddle fitter the other day about how I am too heavy for my current horse and would possibly always be too heavy even with a substantial amount of weight lost with his current saddle set up. And a similar conversation with my back lady a month or so ago, where we discussed what weight would be ok and how my current weight isnt ok.

All of these people and lots more said I was fine to ride my last horse when I was lighter than I am currently but still at a weight that you find unacceptable. The majority of those people said it when I didnt ride him and had no intention of riding him, so they were under no pressure to say something to keep my business/not be embarrassed etc, etc.
 
Leo Walker said:
You always say this and its not been my experience at all. In fact I had a discussion with my saddle fitter the other day about how I am too heavy for my current horse and would possibly always be too heavy even with a substantial amount of weight lost with his current saddle set up. And a similar conversation with my back lady a month or so ago, where we discussed what weight would be ok and how my current weight isnt ok.

All of these people and lots more said I was fine to ride my last horse when I was lighter than I am currently but still at a weight that you find unacceptable. The majority of those people said it when I didnt ride him and had no intention of riding him, so they were under no pressure to say something to keep my business/not be embarrassed etc, etc.
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The difference is how you ask them. If someone who I thought was too heavy came to me and said ' I think I am too heavy for my horse, what do you think?' Then I would agree they were too heavy. However, I would not just tell someone who did not ask me that they were too heavy. Most people who are definitely too heavy do not even mention it. Also, if someone who was very sensitive and I knew had a real problem with their self esteme asked me if I thought they were too heavy, I may hesitate to tell them the truth. And that is me; someone who feels very strongly about horses not being made to carry too much weight. Other people who do not feel that strongly are even less likely to tell someone.
 
You're assuming people ask and start the conversation, sometimes people do just tell them, just because you wouldn't doesn't mean others don't.
 
ester said:
Not my experience either Leo :).
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Are you saying this as an overweight person? I have no idea if you are or not. The facts are that people are worried about others' feelings regarding weight and would avoid telling them in most circumstances. I say that as someone who sees it all the time and have only once attempted to tell someone. You only see what people tell you personally, not what the majority of people are thinking.
 
I would (politely) attempt to discuss with an owner on my yard ANY form of cruelty, and how to remedy it. I would feel it my duty as a YO.
 
Leo I'm really glad this has been your experience but it's not mine. Did you bring the subject up or did they?

And there is pressure, societal pressure, whatever, even if you're not riding the horse. People worry that they're being rude, I worry about causing riders distress, that they may have SERIOUS food/diet issues and I'm going to trigger them. I have got braver over the years but it's never easy, the horse HAS to be my priority, I just will try my best to be as tactful and objective, and sympathetic/empathetic, as possible. I'm not a skinny minny myself but I don't look as heavy as I am for my height.

Riders will tell you to your face that you've been very tactful, and even post publicly about it, then go away and never come back. There can be a real emotional delay, and a delay in realising what the implications are. It's NOT a small issue especially in this day and age when we're ALL trying to be supportive, feminist, not be body nazis etc.
 
ester said:
You're assuming people ask and start the conversation, sometimes people do just tell them, just because you wouldn't doesn't mean others don't.
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I have never known anyone be told by a vet or instructor they are too heavy for their horse.
 
sbloom said:
Leo I'm really glad this has been your experience but it's not mine. Did you bring the subject up or did they?

And there is pressure, societal pressure, whatever, even if you're not riding the horse. People worry that they're being rude, I worry about causing riders distress, that they may have SERIOUS food/diet issues and I'm going to trigger them. I have got braver over the years but it's never easy, the horse HAS to be my priority, I just will try my best to be as tactful and objective, and sympathetic/empathetic, as possible. I'm not a skinny minny myself but I don't look as heavy as I am for my height.

Riders will tell you to your face that you've been very tactful, and even post publicly about it, then go away and never come back. There can be a real emotional delay, and a delay in realising what the implications are. It's NOT a small issue especially in this day and age when we're ALL trying to be supportive, feminist, not be body nazis etc.
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Well said. It takes a lot of guts to tell someone, and more so if it may impact on your business. When I started out in the livery business, I used to try and help people by stepping in where I thought there were issues. Now I don't. I would if it was DIY and the horse was being neglected, but at least running a full livery service, that would never happen. But I have learned over the years that people don't thank you for advice that they find at all painful, and that includes being too heavy for their horse.
 
I also get really annoyed by selecting seat size by length of thigh as the Thorowgood site, it's MUCH more about hip measurement. Mine is around 40-41" and I need a 17.5 saddle, simple. I am 5'8", so it suits me in flap length and block placement as well, but if we could have an honest discussion about bum size and saddle size it would help, a lot. Someone who is only 5' but has a similar hip measurement will need the same seat size give or take but the flap will swamp them, especially as extra "padding" makes you sit high off the saddle so the block placement is all wrong, and it makes the flap fit EVEN longer so it needs customising in an ideal world. Those sort of customisations cost money.
 
Wagtail said:
Well said. It takes a lot of guts to tell someone, and more so if it may impact on your business. When I started out in the livery business, I used to try and help people by stepping in where I thought there were issues. Now I don't. I would if it was DIY and the horse was being neglected, but at least running a full livery service, that would never happen. But I have learned over the years that people don't thank you for advice that they find at all painful, and that includes being too heavy for their horse.
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When it's a borderline case I try and feel that at least I will find the best possible fit to mitigate the issues, and recommend a sheepskin pad etc.
 
stormox said:
I would (politely) attempt to discuss with an owner on my yard ANY form of cruelty, and how to remedy it. I would feel it my duty as a YO.
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The problem with weight though, is that it's subjective. We have no scientific evidence and so what one person thinks is a cruel amount of weight to put on a horse, another would completely disagree and think you are being rude, interfering and offensive. What I see as too heavy, I have no evidence for. If we had some proper research, then it would then become less personal. It would just be a fact. Like not feeding a horse, or not giving it company, or not exercising it for weeks and then having a blast on it for two hours. All of these things I would step in with. But weight, not anymore. Not whilst it all boils down to personal opinion.
 
Wagtail said:
Are you saying this as an overweight person? I have no idea if you are or not. The facts are that people are worried about others' feelings regarding weight and would avoid telling them in most circumstances. I say that as someone who sees it all the time and have only once attempted to tell someone. You only see what people tell you personally, not what the majority of people are thinking.
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See my other response. I am speaking both from experience of seeing other people told without asking and a conversation initiated by my instructor at the time once, although that would have been at a point where a change in my weight would have been more noticeable which is why I suspect it was brought up. And yes she would have known I was not in a good place at the time (and that I are the pony were in different counties) but we still had that conversation so again I am just saying that just because you wouldn't say anything and find it awkward it is my experience that people do have full and frank discussions about this, not always instigated by the rider.

It is definitely something people struggle with the concept of, and what weights do and don't look like so people are often looking at the asthetic view too not the facts. I was invited to ride another horse on the yard while mine was off, the advert that subsequently went up for him requested someone 2.5 stone lighter than I was at the time. (And he was a lovely irish type so not one I was concerned about my then weight on or I would have spoken to them about it).
 
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Wagtail said:
I have never known anyone be told by a vet or instructor they are too heavy for their horse.
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There is a vet in Kent who covers various horsey events...if she considers someone too heavy for their horse she will not allow them to participate.
 
ester said:
See my other response. I am speaking both from experience of seeing other people told without asking and a conversation initiated by my instructor at the time once, although that would have been at a point where a change in my weight would have been more noticeable which is why I suspect it was brought up. And yes she would have known I was not in a good place at the time (and that I are the pony were in different counties) but we still had that conversation so again I am just saying that just because you wouldn't say anything and find it awkward it is my experience that people do have full and frank discussions about this, not always instigated by the rider.
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Fair enough. Our experience is different, but both true. I wonder how to design a poll to find out?

What would you personally find too heavy on say a 15.2 TB? I'm trying to get a weight that would be definitely too heavy but not as extreme as you sometimes see and causes outrage. Could anyone answer this question? Then I could do a poll asking whether people would give unsolicited advice to someone that they are too heavy for the horse, or only if asked, or not at all.
 
cobgoblin said:
There is a vet in Kent who covers various horsey events...if she considers someone too heavy for their horse she will not allow them to participate.
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That's good. I wish there were more. What would you consider too heavy for a 15.2 TB? Average build and fitness.
 
I would personally add saddle seat size to that, a 17" saddle for example, 18" footprint so small to medium for an adult, a typical fit on that size of horse.
 
sbloom said:
Leo I'm really glad this has been your experience but it's not mine. Did you bring the subject up or did they?.
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With the previous horse it started with a vet calling me stupid and telling me to get on and ride when I said I didnt ride him, followed by my back lady at the time saying she had done her research paper into weight carrying abilities and I was more than fine. Then I had another vet out specifically to discuss weight carrying with the view that I thought I was too heavy.

There have been lots of other people,all qualified and respected people in their own fields, who all said it was fine. I always brought it up along the lines of I think I might be too heavy for him. I'm not a sensitive person about it which is obvious from the way I talk about it. I even had an instructor out to look at me riding to give me an objective opinion. The only people who ever said I was too heavy were a handful of people on here. Wagtail said she would only allow a maximum of 10 stone on him including tack, which was 5 to 6 stones lighter than the qualified professionals who saw him.

Current horse I didnt actually bring it up, the saddler did and told me in no uncertain terms that I was too heavy. As it happens I know this and hes predominantly a driving horse, I only needed a saddle as other people ride him occasionally. With the back lady I cant remember how it came up but it was in the context of what would be a suitable weight for him as people on the yard wanted me to ride him and couldn't believe I didnt and I wanted a proper opinion to tell them why it wasnt ok.

As it happens I dont actually think I will be able to ride again even if I lose weight as my back problems cant be rectified with surgery as I had hoped and actually I am obsessed with driving, and its much more suitable for someone who is now permanently disabled.
 
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Leo Walker said:
The only people who ever said I was too heavy were a handful of people on here. Wagtail said she would only allow a maximum of 10 stone on him including tack, which was 5 to 6 stones lighter than the qualified professionals who saw him.
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Which horse was that? Because if it was your 14hh leg on each corner cob, I would have said 14 stone including tack. Can you show me where I said 10 stone including tack? Ten stone plus tack would be my max for my little TBxWB so I have to be careful I don't put back the weight I lost.
 
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