Don't agree with vet, can I reclaim money?

millikins

millikins

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Sorry, this is long,

We have a 14.1hh Connie, 14 yrs old, 2 years ago he was winning at 3'6", SJ and XC and schooling higher. Outgrown but rather "speshul" so we put him out on loan. Called time on loan Jan 2012 as unhappy with the way he was being kept and ridden.
He came home with no muscle, unfit, refusing jumps over 2'9" and bucking and squealing when asked to canter on lunge, worse when using Pessoa. No bucking when ridden.
Saddler condemned his saddle so replaced and it fits. Teeth o.K. We spent a few months trying to build him up gently, hacking, longreining etc. He did improve but still not right.
Wanted him to see the osteopath so I called the vet because I thought I had to have their permission. Vet insisted he visited, said immediately that he was working through his back and then did full lameness work up. Found nothing bar 1 or 2/10 lameness on near fore when ridden in very tight circles on a rubber surface, didn't see him lunged or ask to. He then nerve blocked the near fore and pony did go better. Then requested bute trial before next visit. Did all this, symptoms no better. He came again, saw lungeing without Pessoa on surface, pony of course then didn't buck, X rayed hoof, nothing to see, suggested soft tissue pain.
Still not right, and as I think pony is now shouting I HAVE A BAD BACK, I called the osteo and just informed the vet I had done so. Osteo came, found pony with a bad back, he's seen him twice and he does seem better.
My bill was £850, one of the others had a scan, so about £800. I thought he was insured, but have just received e-mail saying he is excluded as I ticked used for HT. He's done none with us as not up to it but they could check and previous loaner had him registered with B.E.
Is there anything I can do? I have already paid?

Many thanks, leftover Christmas port if you've got this far:)
 
I doubt if you can because you gave consent to the pony having investigations to hopefully diagnosis and eliminate possible causes.
If you thought the pony was insured,probably the vet did too.
This is one one the reasons why I don't have my lot insured anymore, it enables me to say what tests I want and I've found I get more practical and old fashioned diagnostics instead of dancing to the insurance company's tune.

Its tough in hindsight, but I doubt you'll get your money back.
 
Tbh I very much doubt it. I would think if you weren't happy with what the vet was saying you could have stopped treatment with them & got a 2nd opinion. I know you said he seems better but at that I'm presuming he's still not 100%?! It's possible the vet may still be right. Our pony had soft tissue damage & as a coincidence when I had his back done he was also a little tight & had to have some work done, however I know it was his fetlock where the actual lameness was coming from as it was witnessed when he damaged it. It take quite a while to get him 100% sound again.

Hope you get to the bottom of it soon xx
 
Sorry to hear you are having problems with your pony, however I don't see what the vet did wrong. He examined him and found him to be lame ("found nothing but a lameness" still means the pony was lame). Mild lameness doesn't mean 'unimportant lameness', indeed some of the worse problems (tendons, ligaments) cause mild lamenesses and some of the major lamenesses come from easy to solve problems (abcess).


If the pony was better after nerve blocks then there is a problem which you need to investigate further. Why not ask for a referral to a specialist centre?

The back may be a separate issue or it may be a side-effect of the lameness. He may well be holding himself differently or be reluctant to work properly because of the lameness.
 
Your saddle was condemned, and the horse lame - all routes to a bad back.

You also gave consent for your (very thorough vet) to examine the horse.
 
Thank you for your replies. BB, I see what you are saying, the vet make only a cursory inspection of his back, he felt that being sore on landing would put the pony off jumping. I can see that, but seems more likely that it would cause him to rear, not buck when lunged. Also, if the lameness is so slight that it is only apparent under very specific conditions, and there is nothing to see on X-ray, I'm surprised that it hasn't either got better or worse over the last few months. He also sustained a serious cut to the same fetlock about 6 years ago so may have scarring and a mechanical lameness which I assume would need MRI?
 
amymay said:
Your saddle was condemned, and the horse lame - all routes to a bad back.

You also gave consent for your (very thorough vet) to examine the horse.
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But what do you mean, I too think it all says bad back, but the very thorough vet says there's nothing wrong with his back and offered no treatment for that.
 
Millikins said:
But what do you mean, I too think it all says bad back, but the very thorough vet says there's nothing wrong with his back and offered no treatment for that.
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Sorry, what I mean is - treat the lameness and the saddle, and the symptoms of a sore back may well disappear.
 
amymay said:
Sorry, what I mean is - treat the lameness and the saddle, and the symptoms of a sore back may well disappear.
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ditto, don't underestimate the soreness that compensating for low grade lameness can cause. Mine had several back treatments/massages while lame as he got stiff due to this.

Vet has identified pony is lame, confirmed by nerve blocks (out of interest how high up?) therefore you have a correct diagnosis and presumably options for treatment/rest?
 
The difficulty is knowing whether the sore back is a causal factor or a symptom of the slight lameness. Either way it would show improvement after treatment in the short term. Long term you will have to see if the osteo treatment sorts him out. If not then perhaps the back isn't the cause and the lameness needs further investigation. The positive nerve block suggests a problem in that area.

Tricky. I don't see how you can get any money back as you went along with the process, and I assume you told the vet you thought you had insurance?
 
The nerve block was into the hoof only. The improvement was at the point when examination was still on going but didn't last after. The x rays were suggested to rule out navicular, they were textbook, perfect bones. Treatment was really continue as we had been take it slow, lots of hacking, re introduce jumping gently, common sense stuff. Vet did say if no improvement he'd return and nerve block the spine, haven't tried that yet. The bucking starts the moment he's asked to canter when Pessoa in situ, i.e. when asked to engage his back. He was very familiar with the P before going on loan, he built up a really nice top line with it.
 
Does he buck without the Pessoa?

I have to say that a year down the line with no real improvement I would be seeking a referral.
 
amymay said:
Does he buck without the Pessoa?

I have to say that a year down the line with no real improvement I would be seeking a referral.
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Yes, sometimes, it's hard to judge because he's always had a tendency to p*** off on the lunge in canter if no restraint in place.

Can you suggest who to refer to, we are in Surrey.

M. L. T, he does live out.
 
Millikins said:
The nerve block was into the hoof only. The improvement was at the point when examination was still on going but didn't last after. The x rays were suggested to rule out navicular, they were textbook, perfect bones. Treatment was really continue as we had been take it slow, lots of hacking, re introduce jumping gently, common sense stuff. Vet did say if no improvement he'd return and nerve block the spine, haven't tried that yet. The bucking starts the moment he's asked to canter when Pessoa in situ, i.e. when asked to engage his back. He was very familiar with the P before going on loan, he built up a really nice top line with it.
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Thanks for the info, I suspected it might have been hoof but didn't want to presume. it wouldn't last after particularly as the anaesthetic diffuses so that isn't an indication that there isn't a problem there. Equally with the xrays, sound horses have navicular changes, lame ones don't but MRIs can show soft tissue damage instead.

Fwiw mine was also lame in front blocked to hoof, xrays not particularly interesting and when blocked again seemed to block to coffin joint but given his movement/age I suspect he had some collateral ligament damage too. (this was when he did get a stiff back, had a larger shoulder, generally tight etc)

If mine I would either give time off (poss with shoes off) or work up the lameness more fully and not discount the foot just yet.
 
I used to use a chiro all the time did my horse. His saddle fitted but he always seemed to have a sore back. Turns out he had hock issues and this was causing his back to become sore. Wish I'd gone straight to vet for full lameness work up instead of wasting hundreds of pounds treating a symptom caused by something else.
 
Unfortunately I think you need a specialist opinion to get to the bottom of the pony's problems. Still doesn't mean the first vet did anything wrong so that you can claim your money back.
 
I don't see why you think you should have a refund....the vet carried out work, I'm presuming with your agreement and found lameness in the horse??
By all means ask for further diagnostic treatment for the back but I really don't think you can be refunded what you've already spent on the legs.

Really sorry if I'm wrong but it sounds to me like you were perfectly happy for the treatment to be carried out when you thought the insurance would pay, but now you've found out that they won't you're trying to look for a way out. Which I don't think is v fair on the poor vets.

Sorry if I'm wrong.
 
I think its odd that the insurance have refused on the basis that you have him insured in a higher category than necessary (which you will have paid a higher premium for) never heard of that being an issue
 
Patterdale said:
I don't see why you think you should have a refund....the vet carried out work, I'm presuming with your agreement and found lameness in the horse??
By all means ask for further diagnostic treatment for the back but I really don't think you can be refunded what you've already spent on the legs.

Really sorry if I'm wrong but it sounds to me like you were perfectly happy for the treatment to be carried out when you thought the insurance would pay, but now you've found out that they won't you're trying to look for a way out. Which I don't think is v fair on the poor vets.

Sorry if I'm wrong.
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I think it's a little harsh. I'm annoyed because he really didn't examine the back, watched him trot up and declared back was fine, then proceeded with the lameness work up, when all the symptoms were pointing towards back. I don't dispute that he found a slight lameness, I'm questioning if it's a red herring. There are numerous posts on here regarding vettings saying the majority of middle aged horses can be made to exhibit some unsoundness somewhere. His explanation that the pony doesn't want to jump because it hurts when he lands doesn't fit with his bucking. I neglected to say earlier that I did insist on back x-rays, this did show two very close vertebrae, again may be something or nothing but more to see than the foot!
Re shoes, I suggested taking them off, vet, farrier and osteo all think they should stay on.
 
ester said:
I think its odd that the insurance have refused on the basis that you have him insured in a higher category than necessary (which you will have paid a higher premium for) never heard of that being an issue
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Sadly he's in a lower category. I think they've changed because HT always used to covered and I didn't read the small print.
 
Very often a bad back is the result of the horse being lame because he is forced to use himself differently. I have found that nine out of ten chronically lame horses have sore backs. Even hoof imbalance can result in a sore back. There is no point in treating the sore back until the cause of the soreness is addressed. So even had you got the osteo in the first instance and she improved his back, if the underlying lameness is not treated then the sore back will return.

Secondly, bute trials very rarely work IME. Just think about it, if you take a pain killer such as paracetamol or even some non steroidal anti inflamatories for a sprained ankle that is bad enough to make you limp, it does not stop ALL the pain and you are likely to still limp. It's the same with horses. Bute trials only work for some types of (mild) pain.

I do not think your vet did anything wrong, nor do I think that they were wrong in their diagnosis. So much as I sympathise, I don't think you are due back your money.
 
Thank you all for your replies, it's given me plenty to think about. I didn't think I have much chance of a refund but worth canvassing opinion. I won't rule out foot, but I think I'll rule out that particular vet.

Off to do some work.
 
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