DONT FEED BRAN!! rant

[Dancing Queen]

Lol, I'am a PhD student and have worked as a researcher in one of the UK's best institutions, the Natural History Museum, and English is only my second language. I'm afraid that your tax money has been used to pay a not even 3rd class hons and a foreigner at that!

thats wonderful to hear! well done you! Im sure my tax money has been used to pay lots of people, foreigners as well - so you are not unique there, sorry to have to break that to you.

 

[highlandponygirl]

im eating bran sticks for tea with raisins on top. Mmm

 

[Fii]

I think, (although i may be wrong) the reason people say not to feed to much bran (as in evry feed, as apposed to now and then) is that now a days the milling? prosses takes more from the husk, so that there is less feed value in the bran, than there was years ago.

 

[JFTDWS]

thats wonderful to hear! well done you! Im sure my tax money has been used to pay lots of people, foreigners as well - so you are not unique there, sorry to have to break that to you.

Lol exactly. IME, commonwealth funding and international students seem to have an easier job finding generous funding than UK students anyway. Most of the PhDs at the institution I work at are internationally funded. Who told you the NH museum was at the forefront of research I won't name drop my institution since I'm posting in a personal and not a professional capacity, and it would not be appropriate for me to as an employee, I don't think. It's somewhat irrelevant anyway.

Re your actual points, regarding the research: [not Dancing Queen, obviously, whoever it is I'm talking at isn't who I'm quoting!]

I suspect it would be traceable by, e.g. DEFRA, as to what pesticides are used in the production of a specific bag of feed, but not by the individual. However, I suspect there are pesticides that are routinely used in the production of certain crops in certain countries. I'll look into that later, I think.

Regardless, my point is that you referenced a specific weed killer, which is certainly commonly used in pasture management in the UK, though possibly not in agriculture. You suggest that round up isn't safe, but the links you provide are mostly about a different pesticide. As I say, organophosphates are relevant to a discussion of the safety of pesticides used in agriculture, but not relevant to the specific points you made.

Your definition of metabolic diseases is tenuous. I would describe cancer as a genetic disease before I described it as a metabolic disease. I interpreted your meaning as metabolic syndromes (not a massive leap from metabolic diseases). But, it's not uncommon for scientists with different specialities to regard diseases from different perspectives. So I accept that by your definition of metabolic diseases the links you posted were relevant in that sense.

Yes, lab studies tend to be over short time frames. In vitro studies (which a number of those links were) are, by nature, short term. In vivo studies in rats are also short term, but it's relevant to bear in mind the shorter life span of a rat. Some rat trials do work over the entire natural lifespan of a rat cohort, some don't. It would be more prudent to pull out a good, well designed epidemiological retrospective trial, which might give a more holistic view...

 

[Tnavas]

Modern bran is a very dangerous feed.

The phosphorous Calcium ratio is so out of kilter that feeding bran can lead to bone degeneration and malformation.

Even if fed with additional calcium bran contains phytates that prevent the absorption of calcium.

It has NO feed value apart from bulking up a feed or being used as a poultice for feet.

 

[Tnavas]

We always used to feed it - as did everyone else I knew in the 70's Bran, oats, new-fangled things called pony nuts and sugar beet in the winter - all in one bucket and twice a day.

I seem to remember that all but the teeniest ponies used to get at least half a scoop to a scoop of bran per feed. What I can't remember is any of the assorted 26 equines on the yard having digestive problems...

Those were the days when a flake of bran had floour with it and the flakes were about a cm square. Even then thoough it was known for the damage it could do in too large quantity - with malformation of bonoes depleted of Calcium by the inbalance of phosphorous and calcium.

 

[stressedmum]

Please bring back Spillers main ring blue (red if i was brave) they were confusing enough when i was young lol now days its a minefield!! I will never forget when this really herbie garlic feed came out! It was like christmas lol! Prior to Spillers main ring, it was pony nuts, chaff and bran, sugar beet you soaked for a week lol.

 

[Tnavas]

I'd rather pay a few pounds more for organic products, surely cheaper than having your horse developp a metabolic desease. Although I don't feed much bran, may be why I don't mind.

Being organic is not going to protect your horse from metabolic diseases - remove soy products from the diet and the horse might stand a chance not to develop any damage further.

 

[Tnavas]

My old pony used to have a guinness bran mash after hunting, and every Christmas Day. My first pony lived out all through the winter of 63 (google it you youngsters) and all he had was hay and a daily bran mash. He came out in the spring looking a picture of health. I always buy a small amount of bran (local pet shop sells it loose) to have in over the Christmas holiday period in case any of the nags look a bit colicy, touch wood haven't had to use it but have given some to a neighbour over the same period when her old lad was bad.

That was a year and a half - it snowed on Boxing Day and never went until late March - was great fun as a kid but never realised how tough it must have been for farmers and horse owners. Bran in those days was far different to what we see now - it had flour in it and actually gave the horse more than the runs.

 

[Tnavas]

I always understood it that bran (or the high phosphorous content) doesnt cause leaching of calcium from the body's stores, but interferes with its absorption so you need to balance it with extra calcium and then its fine?

Correct!

Phytates in Bran prevent the absorption of Calcium. If the blood becomes depleted in Calcium it removes it from the bones. If the bones are not getting enough Calcium they become weaker. A friend discovered to her cost that feeding bran was not a good idea when her horse cracked his pedal bone. She no longer feeds bran and will no longer use products with bran in them.

We were raised on 'Wheat products' are not good for horses - Bran is the husk of wheat - so why are we feeding it? Wheat products are in so many processed feeds and we are seing higher incidences of bone problems. Wheat is know to cause skin allergies, kidney problems and excitability.

Also question the weekly feeding of a bran mash when we were always told 'Never make sudden changes in a horses diet as it takes time for the body to develop the gut microbes to digest the food.' yet here we are stuffing a bran mash down a horse on a weekly basis - no wonder it flushed them out.

 

[china]

I got told to add limestone flour to my feed if feeding bran. I have bran in my feedroom as my mare suffers from gassy colic and it takes her a while to pass droppings, she is not aloud haylage untill she does so i give her a small bran mash with fennel seeds to keep her gut going. Through the summer i added a small amount to her feed to bulk it out and try and fill her up abit more. She is a abit of a fattie and needs restricted grazing so i like to bulk her feeds out with something that wont neccessarily put weight on her!

 

[Mike007]

A large proportion of the phosphorous in Bran and grain is unavailable to the horse (about 50 to 70%).The popular myths about disturbing the Ca/P ratio are based on some very flawed logic that people keep accepting as gospel even when current research is showing otherwise.people talk about millers disease yet there probably hasnt been a case of it for 70 years. It was caused by feeding cheap bran which was low in calcium rather than any problem with phosphorous. Wheat is simply low in Calcium phytins are irrelevant for any horse on a normal diet.

 

[Kaylum]

Our YO has always fed straights and that includes bran. Has done for over 20 years. These horses hunt, compete and show and look fantastic.

There is so much over analysis these days. We were always taught no work no corn (which means hard feed) and other old fashioned methods. LOL!

 

[Fauvea]

Lol exactly. IME, commonwealth funding and international students seem to have an easier job finding generous funding than UK students anyway. Most of the PhDs at the institution I work at are internationally funded.

My scholarship is based on academic excellence and was available for UK and non UK alike. I just happened to be ranked first by the application committee of my department. As a result, the postgraduate director called me the day after the interview to offer me a scholarship.

When I say "RoundUp and co." it does not mean RoundUp only and specifically. But it is noteworthy that Monsanto has had to remove the terms "biodegradable" and "environmentally friendly" from the ads and labels of this product, since it is a downright lie.

Some more papers for you:
Cox, Caroline. 1995. Glyphosate, Pt. 1: Toxicology
Journal of Pesticide Reform Vol.15, No.3:14 -20
Cox, Caroline. 1995. Glyphosate, Pt. 2: Human Exposure and Ecological Effects
Journal of Pesticide Reform Vol.15, No.4:14-19

 

[Firewell]

Personally I don't feed bran. There are better feeds out there that do the same job IMO, I think its a very old fashioned thing to feed. Each to their own though, I would never say to someone that they shouldn't feed bran if thats what they wanted to do.

 

[GingerCat]

Personally I don't feed bran. There are better feeds out there that do the same job IMO,

In mine too...........it's a 'feel good' feed for ther owner rather than the horse.

 

[BlueCakes]

Well if I didn't feed bran, would the editor of said magazine like to come and clean the backside of my horse everyday?

I wouldn't suggest people fed bran unless they had an actual use for it.

I however think my horse is much better on it, as it seems to level out his digestive system very well and he has no problems.

I feed a small amount of bran in his feed everyday. His feed gets watered down so it is not dry, but not so that it is wet, because he tends to get a very runny bottom. I used to feed natural yogurt etc for the same effect, but other than myself eating most of his yogurt as I put it into the feed, and its short self life, Bran works just as well.

So I will not listen to anybody who tells me not to feed bran.
None of this fussing around. Bran is a traditional feed and other than that he is on Nuts and chaff.

 

[JFTDWS]

My scholarship is based on academic excellence and was available for UK and non UK alike. I just happened to be ranked first by the application committee of my department. As a result, the postgraduate director called me the day after the interview to offer me a scholarship.

When I say "RoundUp and co." it does not mean RoundUp only and specifically. But it is noteworthy that Monsanto has had to remove the terms "biodegradable" and "environmentally friendly" from the ads and labels of this product, since it is a downright lie.

Some more papers for you:
Cox, Caroline. 1995. Glyphosate, Pt. 1: Toxicology
Journal of Pesticide Reform Vol.15, No.3:14 -20
Cox, Caroline. 1995. Glyphosate, Pt. 2: Human Exposure and Ecological Effects
Journal of Pesticide Reform Vol.15, No.4:14-19

God, you're a bit cocky - you're not the only person in the world to have acquired a funded PhD, y'know. You sound green enough to think that makes you special though

Have you read those articles you link to? Firstly, it's a review, published in the journal of pesticide reform - hardly high impact, and sounds like it might have something of an agenda, to me

Secondly, the published data of the primary articles repeatedly suggests different conclusions from those offered in the reviews - the toxicity profiles give LD50s which are well below exposures considered normal environmental exposure, but this review uses that as evidence of it being toxic. By those standards, all substances are toxic, since almost everything will cause death if you administer enough of it - including water! The point is that the LD50 for water is lower than you're likely to take in normally - and the same seems to be true for glyphosphate.

It also suggests that a researcher's interpretation of testicular cancer incidence in a rat study are flawed (12% vs 4% incidence, test vs control) - depending on the n per cohort, this may well be statistically insignificant. If the author of the article has reason to believe the stats employed by the original article were flawed, this should be elucidated fully. It is not acceptable to say that the numbers are different therefore glyphosphate is dangerous - that's why we use statistics to allow for random variation in biological systems and to test the null hypothesis. I could deconstruct the article fully, but I haven't the time or the inclination. I'm just making a point

On the other hand, the fraudulent studies mentioned are depressing and are one of the main problems with science today - a hint of fraud leads to public loss of faith in all science and a "conspiracy theory" mentality. The results published by those groups should clearly be disregarded, but the fact that they were fraudulent does not mean that glyphosphate is therefore not safe. It means that the tests should be repeated by a reliable group without vested interests either way...

 

[Achinghips]

We always used to feed it - as did everyone else I knew in the 70's Bran, oats, new-fangled things called pony nuts and sugar beet in the winter

Haha, a woman after my own heart!! How things have changed!

I remember bringing my cob in, snow on his back and watching him ecstatically eating a warm bran mash and the fumes of wet horse and straw mingling with it and filling the stable- marvellous times

 

[Achinghips]

Haha, a woman after my own heart!! How things have changed!

I remember bringing my cob in, snow on his back and watching him ecstatically eating a warm bran mash and the fumes of wet horse and straw mingling with it and filling the stable- marvellous times

Now I have a Tb and those days are long since forgotten - lol

 

[Dancing Queen]

 

[FionaM12]

Is it really very naughty of me to say I rather enjoy these threads when people get a little cross and things become contentious?!

I read this because, coincidentally, earlier today I was thinking, "why don't I get some bran for Mollie?". Yep, can't you tel the last time I had a horse was the 1970s? There's some very useful input here which helps me answer my question.

However, what fun and entertainment it is when people start feeling the need to discuss/boast their accademic qualifications (or not). In a thread about bran for horses! Love it.

 

[Oberon]

Haha, a woman after my own heart!! How things have changed!

I remember bringing my cob in, snow on his back and watching him ecstatically eating a warm bran mash and the fumes of wet horse and straw mingling with it and filling the stable- marvellous times

That sounds ace

 

[rosie fronfelen]

True! Except I used to eat that out of the feed bin myself (I think we used to just feed that to the horses, not ponies, who were all tough as old boots 57-varities!)

How times have changed,Mrs B--

 

[Mrs B]

How times have changed,Mrs B--

True, Rosie. I REALLY don't miss the old rugs, though

 

[little_critter]

Correct!
Also question the weekly feeding of a bran mash when we were always told 'Never make sudden changes in a horses diet as it takes time for the body to develop the gut microbes to digest the food.' yet here we are stuffing a bran mash down a horse on a weekly basis - no wonder it flushed them out.

Thanks Evelyn, I'm a novice owner and was wondering about how you feed bran mash as a treat and keep to the 'no sudden changes' feeding rule. Glad to see I wasn't being dim.

 

[JFTDWS]

Is it really very naughty of me to say I rather enjoy these threads when people get a little cross and things become contentious?!


However, what fun and entertainment it is when people start feeling the need to discuss/boast their accademic qualifications (or not). In a thread about bran for horses! Love it.

Lol me too, I do agree that it's ridiculous. In fairness, I haven't stated my qualifications because I don't think it's relevant - I don't care whether that poster has a PhD, degree or no academic qualifications at all - all I care about is that they support their statements with relevant, quality publications if they claim them to be scientific fact.

 

[Fauvea]

Lol me too, I do agree that it's ridiculous. In fairness, I haven't stated my qualifications because I don't think it's relevant - I don't care whether that poster has a PhD, degree or no academic qualifications at all - all I care about is that they support their statements with relevant, quality publications if they claim them to be scientific fact.

I never claimed that what I said was scientific fact, this is just a forum, I'm here to chat. If you don't care, why badmouth the institution I've worked at, then badmouth international students and finally insinuate that all in all I must have just started my PhD. All of those statements you've made are false, and where are you peer reviewed articles for those statements?

 

[Lolita]

Agree it's really underrated, albeit it's maybe not the most nutritious feed but our vet recommended it when one of our horses had colic and it worked tremendously. It's great for most digestive blockages etc

 

[JFTDWS]

I never claimed that what I said was scientific fact, this is just a forum, I'm here to chat. If you don't care, why badmouth the institution I've worked at, then badmouth international students and finally insinuate that all in all I must have just started my PhD. All of those statements you've made are false, and where are you peer reviewed articles for those statements?

You announced it as fact, you didn't qualify it with a statement such as "I believe xxx" or "In my opinion xxx is a risk", therefore you should be prepared to defend it, or you should at least not dismiss people asking you to back it up with evidence (see the post where you first mention round up - you imply that I am ill-informed to believe that round up is relatively safe).

I didn't bad mouth your institution, I merely disagree with your suggestion that it is one of the best in the UK. There's a difference. I also suggested you were green, not necessarily young or at the start of your phd - there is, again, a difference. It's also not outrageous to expect a scientific claim to be backed up with a peer reviewed article. Conjecture about another forumer's circumstance is normal on a public forum, and is hardly in the same ball park as claiming that "non-organic bran causes metabolic diseases"

Do I feel that you have no scientific come back, hence are acting defensive and responding in a personal manner, rather than in a manner conducive to debate or general enlightenment?