Don't know what to do :(

If she can't lunge and long rein sensibly or do classical in hand type work you can't really expect her to improve when you are on top.
And if she hasn't be xrayed etc you can't say that she is 100% physically- when you say fully vet checked what does that actually mean?
What has she spent the rest of her life doing did she jump at a high level in a previous life or?

Yes she isn't rearing etc but charging around, being out of control bouncing doubles frequently is dangerous behaviour too.
 
Shoot her or sell her! You aren't suitable for each other and I doubt you ever will be. Time to call it quits and next time buy with your head not your heart.
 
jo_pearl said:
They aint robbing me. They are along with me trying everything to make us both enjoy going to shows together, i really dont think she would ever kill someone not once as she ever reared or bucked shes just over excitable to be ridden.
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I'm sure I'm not alone is saying they are not being good instructors for you and your horse when they're still encouraging you to take her to shows which she's so obviously not ready for.
It doesn't have to be a rear or a buck to be dangerous if you can't control her; you are risking other people, not just yourself.
 
I think you're roughly in my neck of the woods so I'm going to PM you with some names of instructors I really rate. My horse was similar when I first had him (although he reaction was to nap when away from home) and they really helped me.

He did have a physical problem (still does but we manage it, mainly by him not jumping any more which in turn has calmed him down loads!) but his reaction to the physical issue was more of a problem. I'm not saying she has a physical problem, but his would be relatively small for other horses and took a while to be picked up by the vet but to him it was huge (he is a bit special!).

He spent a good year expecting it to still be hurting and getting him over that was hard but we've managed it with baby steps and at the grand old age of 20 and owning him for 11 years we're actually going to be doing our first Novice test this summer (it's taken 6 years to get him to a. lengthen without tanking off and b. come back at the end of it nicely).

Do you jump at home? This was a big thing for my boy. We don't really have facilities to jump at home so every time he went somewhere he thought he was going to jump and (expecting pain) would get very tense, nappy and naughty. I let him have a year 'off' going anywhere and we just hacked and hacked and hacked. We then started doing a bit more flat work and the difference was staggering. When we started going places again the first dozen times or so were just fun rides (or boxing up for a hack or beach ride) with his best mate. We'd get there very early and if the organisers were happy would set off 5-10 minutes early to avoid catching any horses up. It was all very low key and designed to be easy for him. We then started some flat work clinics and have taken it from there. He still has the odd nappy moment leaving a warm up arena and going to do his test, especially if it's indoors and he suddenly find himself alone (we did most of our jumping indoors as he would nap terribly if he could see other horses) but the difference now is I can work with him to get him over it fairly quickly, usually before the bell, if the judge is kind and gives us a few extra seconds.
 
she has been xrayed for KS as my friends horse was bouncy and hers did have KS mine doesnt.

She has previously been schooled and has jumped but nothing more than RC level but with a guy who was rough with her and she went through a stage when i first had her of running through fences out of poor fright. i resolved that by taking her back to basis.

It dont help im not the bravest (following a bad fall a few years ago) and i know that maybe its me as i only jump small and she is capable of alot more but if i cant hold her to a 2foot fence any bigger and i feel i would have no control at all.

Yes i jump her at home and she is hot but not as hot as in a competitions and i take her to regular clinics and she is good there but again is hot and just cant seem to switch off. I wish i could just switch her mind off for 5 mins
 
This kind of horse needs a person with never-ending patience. For whatever reason she is unhappy going to shows and schooling. It may be a physical issue (most are), or it may just be that the poor girl has just never had the right owner who is prepared to take her time with her, which is what she clearly needs. You do not have the time or patience for her so retire her or find her a home where someone does. She sounds just up my street as I enjoy this kind of project, but I am not taking on more horses right now. But what I am saying is that there are people out there who could help her and enjoy her. My only worry would be that she has an undiscovered pain issue going on. I presume you have had her saddle checked?
 
she's running on adrenalin, even for people when you are on adrenalin your mind doesn't really work you are just in fight or flight mode.

She might be worth a bute trial just to see, especially if she did have back xrayed - as bute doesn't work for everything.
 
I have had everything checked she is in no pain what so ever.

I have patience ive had her a year and continued to work with her when others have said give up, but its getting to the stage where she is so set in her ways as she is 15 and had a bit of a pass around life that its getting hard. everything people suggest i try and it may work for a bit then goes wrong.

Ive had people tell me to try a hackamore but they are not PC or RC allowed so kind of stops me even going to training sessions.
 
you can use a hackamore RC, unless you are a junior.

You do have patience but equally you have continued to take her out to parties that she just doesn't sound able to cope with.
 
The trouble is that you haven't even resolved her issues at home so still taking her out to places that are likely to upset her is just playing into her hands.

You need to sacrifice the need for competitions, clinics and so on to concentrate on getting her right, completely right, at home before you should think about taking her out to places and even when you do, you need to be prepared for her to give you five minutes of calm work in the collecting ring or riding about the showground then take her home again before she kicks off. Until you can break that cycle of trip out means exciting, stressful delinquent behaviour then you are never going to win or get her on your wavelength.
 
jo_pearl said:
I have had everything checked she is in no pain what so ever.

I have patience ive had her a year and continued to work with her when others have said give up, but its getting to the stage where she is so set in her ways as she is 15 and had a bit of a pass around life that its getting hard. everything people suggest i try and it may work for a bit then goes wrong.

Ive had people tell me to try a hackamore but they are not PC or RC allowed so kind of stops me even going to training sessions.
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The patience you need for a horse such as this is off the scale and has nothing to do with length of time you take, it comes down to experience, which you don't have yet, being able to step outside of the issues and being totally unemotional about the horse, or less emotional so nothing they do becomes personal, hard to do when it is your only horse and worse when it is your first, and finally you must have no expectations or plans other than to take each day as it comes, sometimes sitting on for hours, sometimes getting 2 mins of relaxation and getting off to finish for the day, rewarding the good behaviour by doing no more than that 2 mins is beyond most peoples ability to be patient most would think "the horse is relaxed and going well lets do more today" which would usually then end up with them getting stressy again and having to sit on for a long while.

Even training sessions with PC/RC are not going to help for now, they are not geared towards her and her requirements, it comes back to patience, if you want to try a hackamore then do so and change your plans to fit round her needs not yours, that is being patient.
 
she is so easy to handle at shows at is literally just when im on her she gets wound up i can stand outside the ring on her and she stands like a lamb.

Oh i didnt know i could use of not a junior maybe worth a try for us as its the contact she fights more than anything
 
I read your posts OP, and see that what I, and others are saying is not reaching you. For example, you say that she is fine lungeing, but then say she just does at at 100 mph. That is not fine with lungeing. That is an overwhelmed horse, who needs help.

You have several people here, all agreeing with each other, all of whom HAVE schooled horses from this behaviour, all trying to explain how slowly you need to go. In my post way back I explained how I would start on the floor, with a halt, then a few steps of walk, then halt, as that may be all she can do without building momentum. In fact that is all I would do until she is able to halt and walk with relaxation and a soft mouth. Believe it or not, it can become fascinating, getting a soft and willing response, with a quiet mind.

To me it is totally on the wrong track to be looking at different bits, hackamore etc, she needs a quiet mind, and that needs to be trained in as a drip feed, not by going to training sessions, shows etc. Once this approach is taken I have seen rapid changes in horses, but it is at THEIR pace, not yours.

It is about checking in on how SHE is mentally, rather than asking what she is mechanically doing for you (as in she is fine to lunge, as above).

If you don't want to go down that route (and it is exciting a route as any, believe me), or don't have support to do that (as you sound as if you need support to learn), then I would retire the horse, if you have that option.
 
Very true Red-1, having been doing some straightness training of late even with a fairly chilled horse getting him to walk forwards with relaxation, correct bend and no push is tricky, circles we're good now and the difference is amazing :) straight lines atm he just wants to come through you (that's his thing!)
 
Okay, so she's good on a loose rein and when standing around, but runs away from the contact? What bit do you have her in? what others have you tried? What noseband does she have and how tight? I know you say she is not in pain but you really don't know that. For instance, she could have a broken jaw, blind wolf tooth, her tongue could be too big for most bits and therefore extremely painful, she could have poll pain or a cracked vertebra in her neck. The list is endless. You need to get her foot perfect at home before getting her out and about. Find the problem because there will be one. Horses run into pain and pressure and she doesn't like a contact. Start there. Once you really HAVE eliminated any possible physical causes, start as red-1 suggests.
 
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You have had a number of excellent and impressive replies to your post.
I feel very sorry for you and the situation that you sadly find yourself in with your horse.
At 15 she will be well set in her ways and if this is indeed not a pain problem (and the only people that can completely diagnose this would be one of the centres of equine excellence such as Rossdales in Newmarket or one of the other specialists all of which have sophisticated state of the art diagnostic equipment which a normal vet would not have).
My suggestion would be to determine what she is good at such as in hand showing or possibly a hacking home with a seriously experienced rider who is quite happy to race home and find her a genuine long term permanent home with someone that will love and cope with her (and these homes do exist it is just a mater of finding them).
Then get yourself another horse which is to your precise requirements and will do what you love to do.
Good luck.
 
Red-1 said:
See, I would take this from a different perspective.

You say she is wound up at walk even, so until that was sorted I would not move on from walk. In fact, if she can't handle walk then I would start from a level even lower than that, where she can handle it. For example I have helped horses who can't even be led at walk without being wound up, so we halt, walk a step and before they have gained momentum, come back to halt.

It has taken hours to walk across a car park from field to stable, but it was important to keep the horse in a place where he CAN cope, as that way he can find the loose rope and peace. If you barge on regardless the horse is always on a loser, as it can't cope so you pull all of the time, so the horse never gets a peaceful time, and stays wound up.

For me, I am uncomfortable to hear the horse is being bitted up and taken to a place you know he can't cope, more so that he is exhibiting dangerous behaviours such as bouncing doubles. I am uncomfortable for the horse, as I don't suppose he is enjoying that situation, uncomfortable for you being in danger, and uncomfortable for the other competitors for having their day disrupted.

If you are serious about helping the horse I would take it right back, start with ground work until the horse will react to pressure and release, so you can learn where the release and peace is for the horse. Once you can back up off a slight pressure, then I would go to ridden work, but it would be halt, to walk and back to halt before the horse has a chance to wind up. If you get the timing right the horse will learn where his peace is, and become relaxed and responsive

I would change the people who help you TBH, if they are encouraging you to go to shows when the horse is so uncomfortable even in a quiet, hired place. It seems they are setting you both up to fail. Of course, I don't know your trainers, and that may not be their plan at all, they may well be encouraging you to start at the beginning and work up as and when the horse can cope, in which case listen to them.

I would also check all the basics, feed, soundness, teeth, tack etc etc, but from what you have said these things may or may not be amiss, but while the horse is taken into situations he is not equipped to deal with, the situation is unlikely to improve.

It can be hard when you are in the situation to see the bigger picture, so that is when you need to recognise that things are not progressing as you hope and to get help. I guess posting on here was your call for something better than you already have.

Re-schooling a troubled horse can be time consuming and emotionally draining, but there are many gifts along the way, not least the gift of having to re-examine everything you thought you knew about horses, and learning a deeper understanding. You have to get into their minds, not just their body responses.

Good luck with your horse.
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I want to marry this post and have its babies.

I also want to put that not every session needs to work on this one issue. She's maybe bored and thinking I know she'll get off if I loon about and do it quicker. Have a walking session. Maybe one trot. I have many sessions I don't canter or do poles or much of anything but a turn here and there and leg yields. They need to learn that your not always asking for speed.
 
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jo_pearl said:
She has been fully vet checked there is nothing physically wrong with her. Her previous owners have all passed her on due to how hot she is.

She is ok to lunge not long rein she gets worked up to much, but even lunging is 100MPH!!!

She is fed nothing but grass and is living out and present and it makes no difference.

Truthfully i bought her heart over head as i felt sorry for her and when she works lovely she works lovely and XC she is amazing extremely strong but will honestly jump anything infront of her.

I am just slowly losing my confidence with her and its not becoming enjoyable anymore. i want a horse i can compete seeing i have a jeep and trailer and did my towing test. i dont want to be a taxi for others and not have fun with my own horse :(

Ive had her a year and yes she has improved loads, but she always does something to leave me down and its heart breaking as i give her everything and all i want is for her to shut off for 5 mins and just do a nice little dressage test or hack back without cantering sidewards.
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My mare is quite similar to yours, I have had her for nearly 4 years now, I am still learning to ride her, she is 6 years old.

Last night I couldn't get canter in the jumping paddock as she was bouncing around like tigger, did a lovely passage and piaffe! threw her head up and stuffed her ears up my nose with a martingale on as well!

I took her into the arena (I feel safer in there), asked for canter again, giving her the reins, still with her head and ears up my nose, to being with it was awful, fast and still she was curling back at me, but eventually I had a lovely canter on a very long loose rein, and hey presto 5 minutes later a beautiful walk on a long rein.

Im not saying your mare is this easy, but I agree with some of the other posters, go back and work on the slow/basics.

I will never give up with my mare, she will always be quirky, flighty and hot, but I love her and I will adapt and make the best of what we are together.
 
she is currently ridden in a NS turtle top snaffle for flat that she loves. the nose band is done up as loosely as poss as she is actually better without one and has a martingale. for SJ she is in a cheltenham gag with happy mouth bit. she prefers this to a gag bit.

She does a fantastic leg yield finds going sidewards very easy!!

In hand she is fantastic not wound up, easy and quiet. there is no issues with leading her at all.

I feel as if her mind is always working at 100MPH. as if she cant just settle and relax.

when i can relax her she maintains a constant outline and rhythm in walk and trot and it is lovely!
 
Re. in hand I am not talking leading, I am talking about classical-style in hand work with shoulder in/haunches in etc.

I could lead F anywhere, getting him to step quietly under his body not on his forehand with his head in a long, low, forwards position softly is remarkably complicated!
 
Red-1 said:
I read your posts OP, and see that what I, and others are saying is not reaching you. For example, you say that she is fine lungeing, but then say she just does at at 100 mph. That is not fine with lungeing. That is an overwhelmed horse, who needs help.

You have several people here, all agreeing with each other, all of whom HAVE schooled horses from this behaviour, all trying to explain how slowly you need to go. In my post way back I explained how I would start on the floor, with a halt, then a few steps of walk, then halt, as that may be all she can do without building momentum. In fact that is all I would do until she is able to halt and walk with relaxation and a soft mouth. Believe it or not, it can become fascinating, getting a soft and willing response, with a quiet mind.

To me it is totally on the wrong track to be looking at different bits, hackamore etc, she needs a quiet mind, and that needs to be trained in as a drip feed, not by going to training sessions, shows etc. Once this approach is taken I have seen rapid changes in horses, but it is at THEIR pace, not yours.

It is about checking in on how SHE is mentally, rather than asking what she is mechanically doing for you (as in she is fine to lunge, as above).

If you don't want to go down that route (and it is exciting a route as any, believe me), or don't have support to do that (as you sound as if you need support to learn), then I would retire the horse, if you have that option.
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jo_pearl said:
she is currently ridden in a NS turtle top snaffle for flat that she loves. the nose band is done up as loosely as poss as she is actually better without one and has a martingale. for SJ she is in a cheltenham gag with happy mouth bit. she prefers this to a gag bit.

She does a fantastic leg yield finds going sidewards very easy!!

In hand she is fantastic not wound up, easy and quiet. there is no issues with leading her at all.

I feel as if her mind is always working at 100MPH. as if she cant just settle and relax.

when i can relax her she maintains a constant outline and rhythm in walk and trot and it is lovely!
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Where are you based OP?
 
jo_pearl said:
s for SJ she is in a cheltenham gag with happy mouth bit. she prefers this to a gag bit.
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Eh? A Cheltenham gag is still a gag bit.

jo_pearl said:
In hand she is fantastic not wound up, easy and quiet. there is no issues with leading her at all.

I feel as if her mind is always working at 100MPH. as if she cant just settle and relax.

when i can relax her she maintains a constant outline and rhythm in walk and trot and it is lovely!
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This is what Red-1 is talking about. It's not about the physical manifestation, it's about settling her mind.
 
Honest OP, Frank is a saint on the ground for the most part, but to get him to actually fully concentrate on me and the task in hand without distraction or avoidance has taken some doing and having seen a few start doing it with horses inclined to rush through life (techically Frank would be the opposite :)) the improvement has been quite impressive.
 
ester said:
Aka a bit like this, no fear of us making it to trot yet though!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKv-QN9uJqc
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Ha Ha ester, I was rather enthused by the videos when I saw them a few months ago on Youtube, and have booked into two clinics this summer! Jay has come a long way (he too was a "problem horse") but there is still a part of him I have not reached. I like the simplicity and progression. I also think they will be suitable as part of his rehab work, from a suspensory injury. He has had a year off, and has already done 6 weeks straight line walk only, and is now on phase 2, another 6 weeks of straight line mainly, starting trot in a straight line, and doing 15 minutes in walk on the school 3 X a week. The first clinic I am going to spectate, and in August the Orange One is going in person.

OP, maybe it would be worth going to spectate at such a clinic? It will help to see the nuance of where the horse has given in mind and body.
 
I have read all of this thread and the advice given is worth listening to. it doesn't take much to realise that this horse has a problem being ridden. if she is an angel in hand and easy to manage then something is causing the riding problems. my mare wouldn't even walk over a pole on the ground without getting in a panic. as I mainly do dressage it didn't really bother me but 6 months on I found a previous owner and she told me that she had a very bad accident (somersaulted)showjumping and after that was difficult to jump so she sold her to a hacking home which is where I got her from. your mare may have had a traumatic experience when being ridden on the flat and /or jumping so needs either to be retired,PTS , or work with a professional to get to the bottom of her problems. I am sorry but your instructers should not be encouraging you o compete!!!!!!!!
 
Red-1 said:
Ha Ha ester, I was rather enthused by the videos when I saw them a few months ago on Youtube, and have booked into two clinics this summer! Jay has come a long way (he too was a "problem horse") but there is still a part of him I have not reached. I like the simplicity and progression. I also think they will be suitable as part of his rehab work, from a suspensory injury. He has had a year off, and has already done 6 weeks straight line walk only, and is now on phase 2, another 6 weeks of straight line mainly, starting trot in a straight line, and doing 15 minutes in walk on the school 3 X a week. The first clinic I am going to spectate, and in August the Orange One is going in person.

OP, maybe it would be worth going to spectate at such a clinic? It will help to see the nuance of where the horse has given in mind and body.
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To me it is classical in hand work in a slightly less mysterious taking you through the levels so you get the basics right sort of way. The levels make it seem a bit parellish to me but I can see why it has been done like that.
I can't stand MJ's voice though and I am much better learning in person. Someone runs clinics about 20 mins away from us and I learned a lot from watching but also took a huge step forwards taking Frank a couple of times.
He has 2 avoidances 1) I am walking through you, 2) I will eat the lead/the instructors microphone lead/anything else I can find in order to distract - the microphone worked well as she paniced a bit and he got to eat the grass at the edge of the arena while she put it under her shirt :D.
I am not fluffy at all, but it has also highlighted to me how much my state of mind influences him and it is easier to see on the ground. I struggle with anxiety a lot and sometimes it shows through him, bloomin pony ruining my coping face :p.
He was never a problem horse ;) but is getting on, and anything to keep him flexible without lugging me about has to be a bonus. In some ways it was surprising because he is pretty well schooled, flexible, balanced etc but actually being on the ground and analysing it and having a shoulder coming towards you at all times on a circle has been really interesting.
 
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