Door Kicker - Any ideas how to stop it?

[DappleDown]

We bought a youngster earlier this year, now age 5.

The horses are all coming in overnight now and this mare is a door kicker. She has already had the door hinges out of the concrete twice over.

Usually it's kick kick for breakfast. And then when that's eaten it's kick kick kick for turnout.

In the early evening she comes in with the others, and as soon as the meals turn up it's kick kick kick 'me first'. She does not always get her meal first (tried alternating who gets served first/last). But whatever order meals are given out she will constantly kick until the food is in her bowl.

She's been told NO and STOP, and she's also been ignored. We've put a thick rubber mat on the inside of the door, which dampens the sound but these haven't made her kick the door any less. She often bunny hops her kicks.

She is always the first in the queue to come in for the night - she will push her way to the front of the queue as she insists on being the first in (we bring them in in different order and make her wait her turn, sometimes first, or last, or whatever, and she is ok with that).

She is a 16.3hh French TB (ex hurdler, and we do speak in French to her too as she was trained in France). We don't want her out overnight for various reasons.

Anyone who has had a youngster will appreciate (I hope) where I am coming from re handling her correctly, but she needs to know her place and learn a few manners. But how best to do it?

*Just as a bit of history, her breeding is good and she had a LOT of time and money spent on her trying to get her good to race. Then of course she was moved on when she didn't make the grade.
Her original breeding/racing yard has the best of everything, the whole establishment is immaculate and has a reputation as one of the best in France. And this mare really comes across as thinking she is a Princess and demands to be treated as such.

Advice please.

 

[Asha]

My ID mare used tokick the table door when she arrived. Id never had a stable kicker before, its so annoying. So I feel your pain.

My girls kicking is mainly to do with food. So when I was feeding everyone I would have my daughter stand by her stable and wave a broom whenever she went to do it. Shes a quick learner and now waits patiently . I believe a water pistol works well too

 

[Antw23uk]

I would put a full bar grill on her stable so she cant put her head over the door and thus be in a position to kick! You can also get those pressure sprays so as they kick the door on the inside a jet of water sprays up from the outside straight into there faces. I've heard these are great but expensive?

I have a gate kicker .. funnily enough its a mare with little patience its hard to ignore her when she is waving her legs about at a five bar gate and they look like they are going to get caught but a stable, yep full grill closed.

 

[blitznbobs]

The only thing that cured my cob was a chain across his door and left the door open ... this worked for years til he learnt to kick the wall next to the door !

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

QuitKick works brilliantly or a cheaper open slip rails


http://www.quitkick.com/ worth every penny

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I'm intrigued as to he bloodlines of your French mare. I have a french TB, he is 20yo now but we have a few in the yard and they are almost always the soundest and sturdiest, nicest natured and easiest to ride.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I'm intrigued as to he bloodlines of your French mare. I have a french TB, he is 20yo now but we have a few in the yard and they are almost always the soundest and sturdiest, nicest natured and easiest to ride.

We had a livery here who was 20 who was a french Tb - he was such a lovely sweet horse we miss him dearly (lost to colic 13th Oct 2016). Though was not the soundest but lovely all the same

 

[Steerpike]

My boy sometimes kicks his door at feed times, it has gotten less so now he is in a routine of him being fed first, makes my life easier and quieter. When I first got him he was on a livery yard and un known to me the YO used to scream and shout at him waving a broom, I wondered why he suddenly got head shy so please don't do that!

 

[gmw]

Agree with Quitkick option well worth the money, cheaper than new horse legs or door!

 

[DappleDown]

I knew a couple of people who had bought the Quitkick's. They didn't work for long though, I think one lost it's 'squirt' and I don't know what went wrong with the other one.

 

[fburton]

I'd like to address each point you make in turn - I hope that's alright.

We bought a youngster earlier this year, now age 5.

The horses are all coming in overnight now and this mare is a door kicker. She has already had the door hinges out of the concrete twice over.

Usually it's kick kick for breakfast. And then when that's eaten it's kick kick kick for turnout.

At least it's obvious why your youngster is kicking. Often it's just an attention-seeking scenario.

In the early evening she comes in with the others, and as soon as the meals turn up it's kick kick kick 'me first'. She does not always get her meal first (tried alternating who gets served first/last). But whatever order meals are given out she will constantly kick until the food is in her bowl.

She always gets the food eventually, and when it arrives (sooner or later) she is rewarded for her efforts to make the food come. Her habit may have been acquired before you got her, but what happens to her now is reinforcing the habit. Indeed, the variable nature of the reward may have cemented the habit even more strongly.

She's been told NO and STOP

Hardly discouragement to a hungry, highly food-motivated horse.

, and she's also been ignored.

Well, not really, since she gets the food in the end.

We've put a thick rubber mat on the inside of the door, which dampens the sound but these haven't made her kick the door any less. She often bunny hops her kicks.

She couldn't care less about how much noise she makes. If more extreme behaviour makes the food arrive faster, she will learn do it.

She is always the first in the queue to come in for the night - she will push her way to the front of the queue as she insists on being the first in (we bring them in in different order and make her wait her turn, sometimes first, or last, or whatever, and she is ok with that).

I think that just confirms the degree to which she's focused on food.

She is a 16.3hh French TB (ex hurdler, and we do speak in French to her too as she was trained in France). We don't want her out overnight for various reasons.

Fair enough. In your position I'd want my horses to be manageable and polite, and not to be made an exception of for any reason.

Anyone who has had a youngster will appreciate (I hope) where I am coming from re handling her correctly, but she needs to know her place and learn a few manners. But how best to do it?

I think the answer starts with an understanding of how horses learn behaviours in general - the link between actions, behaviours and consequences. You probably have a good idea of how it works, but it doesn't harm to brush up on that. If you're into reading stuff, Emma Lethbridge's Knowing Your Horse: A Guide to Equine Learning, Training and Behaviour is a good book, but only available now as secondhand for a decent price. There may be newer ones out there - I'll have a look. (I don't want to recommend a clicker training book because people can be put off by the thought, but the clicker trainers are very good on the behaviour side of things especially when it comes to use of food rewards!)

What I personally would be concentrating on, at least initially, is using the delivery of dinner as a training tool itself. First, I would be feeding your youngster first. Then I would approach her stable with the feed, stop moving every time she bangs the door, but come forward when she pauses. At first it will probably look like nothing is changing. However, if your timing is good, she will start to learn that her not kicking is what hastens the arrival of food. Once that chink has been opened, you can work on building up a positive response to quietness. It will take tremendous patience, time, and many repetitions - and there will almost certainly be as many steps back as forward - but eventually things will get better. You need to ensure that this treatment is consistently maintained by everyone dealing with her. You might find, if someone else is feeding her, that she behaves better with this person. That doesn't necessarily imply respect for the person, but that they are good at responding to the horse's actions moment-to-moment.

Only after I'd tried to this approach of controlling, in minute detail, when she gets rewarded would I even consider using punishment and aversives - and then only with reluctance. If anything, delivering punishment effectively takes even better timing and skill, especially when the (food) stakes are so high. So I would encourage you to give the above a decent go first.

 

[Damnation]

I hide and throw things at the door that I know will make loud noises, like grooming brushes

I know someone else who used one of those spray bottles where you pumped the water out. In the end all the girl used to do was leave the bottle in view of the stable. 9 times out of 10 this stopped any impatience/door kicking. On that 1 occasion the mare got brazen she used to just make the bottle do the "pumping" noise. Stopped her in her tracks.

I also had a French Bred, ex racer mare. SO dominant!

 

[nikkimariet]

2 tie rings inside the door. Clip a curtain of rubber matting onto it.

Honestly drives me barmy, so rude.

Once they can't make a nose, they stop.

 

[I.M.N.]

QuitKick - My mum got one of these for a new horse she bought that is a door kicker, works a charm.

 

[fburton]

Once they can't make a nose, they stop.

I'm sure that's the case where the noise succeeds in getting attention. However, if silent kicking is found to lead to food being delivered, chances are it will continue.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

QuitKick - My mum got one of these for a new horse she bought that is a door kicker, works a charm.

I went for the cheap option and bought a water pistol and stood slightly out of sight. He learnt quickly but I wasn't there all the time so the lack of consistency limited our success. If I had mine at home I'd do as fburton suggests but he's on a livery yard and I can't see them doing that every meal time.

The answer was to simply remove the door from the equation and put a bar across instead (he breaks the chains by accident)

 

[Midlifecrisis]

A plastic drinks bottle filled with water..when mare kicks just squirt her..she wont take long to cotton on. A fellow livery complimented me the other day saying how when she feeds in the morning my two mares just watch and are quiet and don't kick the doors as a number of the others in the yard do.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My ID mare used tokick the table door when she arrived.

So did my IDx mare !

The water pistol treatment soon reminded T of her manners.

 

[Asha]

So did my IDx mare !

The water pistol treatment soon reminded T of her manners.

Hahahaha I reckon the term hangry came about because of the ID . The make up for it in so many ways though😊

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I knew a couple of people who had bought the Quitkick's. They didn't work for long though, I think one lost it's 'squirt' and I don't know what went wrong with the other one.

Well I have mine a few years and they are fine, one did go funny and turned out to the the charger connection so sent it back and they repaired it at my cost as out of guarantee. Maybe these people should contact the company and they can repair them.

 

[DD]

QuitKick works brilliantly or a cheaper open slip rails


http://www.quitkick.com/ worth every penny

how does that work give them an electric shock? poor bl**dy horses all they need is turning out instead of being coop up in a little box.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

how does that work give them an electric shock? poor bl**dy horses all they need is turning out instead of being coop up in a little box.

I suggest you read the info on it to see how it works.



What makes you think the horses are cooped up in a little lmao box and not going out.

 

[DappleDown]

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for replying, and in particular to fburton for their detailed reply.

It has taken me a few days to update this thread as I set to the very same evening following fburton's 'delivery/reward' method (der, er, why didn't I see that I was saying to myself when I read it).

Evening 1: kick kick kick... I picked up food and approached. KICK. I stopped. KICK. I stepped back just slightly. Horse froze, looked at me most indignantly, lifted herself to 18hh and stared at me. I walked forward, gave feed - don't know which of us was more dumbfounded.

Following mornings and evenings ever since am using same kick/stop routine but kicking already less frequent.

I have managed to make it to the door a couple of times with feed in the last couple of days with no kicks whatsoever. She did yesterday however throw one lifted kick in when I went to put the feed into her bowl (and nearly slammed my head against the wall), so she had to wait until she stood quietly before I gave it.

Has she had a lightbulb moment, I'd say no. She is a clever yong lady but hasn't yet put the kicking and standing thing together. What I think she has worked out is to immitate me. I freeze, she freezes, and stares back at me. I think in her mind freezing and staring is what I'm doing so if she copies me it equals food delivery.

Still, a definite improvement at feed times and am continuing with this routine.

The kicking at all other times, unfortunately has not changed.

So, thanks again all. Will keep you updated in due course if it is of a help to anyone.

 

[fburton]

Thanks for the update, DappleDown. It sounds like you're making progress. Sometimes it takes a fair bit of repetition to cement these lessons.

One thing you may see with your mare - maybe you've seen it already, because it tends to happen at the beginning of the relearning process - is an sudden increase in the kicking behaviour when it seemed she was improving. This is called an 'extinction burst'. If you do see this, you shouldn't take it as a failure of your training; just be extra careful not to reward her for it.

You may also see new behaviours being tried, like head tossing. You probably don't want to reward them either unless they are really benign.

Finally, when she has finally 'got it' and it looks like the problem has gone away, the kicking may reappear - usually in a half-hearted way. This is common enough to also have a fancy name - 'spontaneous recovery'. Again, you should avoid rewarding any such reappearance and it will go away again quickly enough.

If she is kicking at other times, I'd be thinking along the lines of "what reward is she getting for it?". The usual answer is attention, and unfortunately that reward is harder to remove/control in a consistent way. It may be something else though.

 

[Moggy]

Trugg bucket in front of door with few inches of water in works well

 

[buddylove]

There is a mare on our yard that always was a door kicker. Used to drive me insane at 5.30 in a morning (I'm not really a morning person)! This winter she has moved into the stable next door, and low and behold starting kicking the door as soon as I arrived on the yard (I'm normally first). I calmly ignored her, opened her stable door, put up the chain and left her to it. She scraped the floor a bit, but was most surprised not to get a reaction. Now I can leave her door shut and she doesn't bother kicking it anymore as she knows she gets no attention from me!

 

[GirlFriday]

High volume/low sugar food.

She is excited about the food (sugar high) she is going to get. Likely if she raced (or attempted to) she is used to high energy feeds. Switching to something more fibre based can prevent the sugar rush and consequently the ultimate 'reward' for the kicking.

I've heard of that stopping seasoned door kickers on a yard where they switched to natural systems (not sure of the exact name) foods.

 

[claret09]

use a bungee across the door

 

[laura_nash]

I started typing a reply and then realised fburton had beaten me to it, and much better put!

You may also see new behaviours being tried, like head tossing. You probably don't want to reward them either unless they are really benign.

My cob just couldn't cope with the idea of doing nothing at feed time, if he's not going to kick (or stamp in his case) he has to do SOMETHING to make that feed come sooner. So I ended up teaching him a specific behaviour instead, which is to step backwards a step and turn his head away (kind of like a mini-bow). Bonus is he does that at other times now, for instance if I'm moving the electric fence to give him more grass, which is pretty handy compared to bouncing about excitedly getting in the way.