Double bridle? Cop out/ short cut or if it works why not?

charlie76

charlie76

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I have a rhinelander, which I am sure basically means rhino x Warmblood! He is 9 yrs old and is competing at medium level albeit unafiliated at the moment.
He has big paces but he lacks activity, if I ride him with more leg and try and get more activity in the trot or more jump in the canter he gets strong and falls on to his forehand rather than stepping through.
I have tried all the usual to help him to engage but nothing seems to help. I usually ride him in a drop noseband and happy mouth snaffle which he is fine in for basic work but when we up the pace and ask for more he becomes heavy. He also has a naughty habit of wiggling about when I ask for more in an attempt to avoid working harder! He is quite hard to keep straight and engaged.

So I have started riding him in the double bridle and he is a different horse, he stays straight, I can ask for more power without him running on to his head and he spooks far less in it.
I am tempted just to school him all the time in it and hack him in a snaffle but I feel like I am copping out of getting the work in the snaffle. The double takes the battle away.
I can ride him in a snaffle soft and round and do all the movements but the double allows me to get the extra wow from him.

Today I started in the snaffle and he was ok but not that easy. Swapped him into the double and he instantly transformed.

I would still hack him in a snaffle.
Failing that,if anyone can suggest an alternative snaffle / noseband combination then feel free
 
I could have written that post (apart from the breed!).

Mine is competing at Medium (just), isn't technically ready for a double but when I ride him in one it helps the collected canter movements enormously, helps me get him off his forehand and 'sit' much more. I don't think he's quite ready to compete in it but it's part of the long term plan and I school in one once a week or so at the moment.

Like you I feel a bit of a failure as this horse has had the same Neue Schule lozenge bit for everything from dressage to hunting since he was broken in. However he's a big clumsy horse and I'm not an expert dressage rider so if the shortcut works (and it does) is it so wrong?
 
Do it.
You know how to ride legs and seat to hand ( ie wont just be cranking him in off the curb) so why not make life a bit easier? CS is the opposite ( drops behind the snaffle but steps nicely in to a double) but the theory is the same.
 
I don't even need to use the curb rein for mine - which I don't really understand. Just have it on a very loose contact. How does that work? Agree about the legs - do need to use more leg in the double to keep the power/control balance the same.
 
Gosh I don't feel qualified to comment, really, but I put a weymouth in Fergs yesterday as an experiment. He's schooling around elementary (hindered heavily by my incompetence, I'm afraid) so less ready than yours, but I found him infinitely more ride-able in it, and the quality of what he offered was better. (And no, I wasn't hanging off the curb to hold him in either, honest :o ).

I don't know if it's right, but I'm inclined to use the double every now and then, having felt how he can feel, if you see what I mean...
 
Thanks! I'll do it then. Funny thing with him is he seems to need more leg in the snaffle ! Onwards and upwards .
 
On the odd occasion that mine has been rideable in the school, I always use a double. In a snaffle, he tucks his nose into his chest and tanks round like an old hunter. With the double on, he lifts through his entire frame, comes really soft and light, and uses his back end to produce bounce, rather than to propel himself down the nearest imaginary hill - takes a lot less leg too. I have no hesitation in using a double if it produces a nice effect, and see little point in a snaffle if it means the quality of work is poorer.
 
Cop out? The double bridle is the endgame, that's where it's all headed, it's the refinement tool, the lightener, the educated goal. The snaffle is a blunt instrument, NOT the nicey-nicey "kind" option that everybody seems to think it is: it doesn't help the horse; the curb does. It's just a mind set really; I breathe a sigh of relief as soon as mine are ready for grown-up stuff, in the double (which is typically around Elementary work, five years old). And the ultimate goal is riding on the curb alone, one handed - my two best horses are infinitely happier and better this way, but it takes a long time to get there.
 
I don't start mine in a double until they accept and understand the contact in the snaffle. This meant that my exracer did not start in a double until he was 12 (I got him when he was 7 but he had at least 2 yrs off for injuries). The horses I ride in Portugal are in doubles at 4 or 5; but then their training is so much intense than what we do in England.

For me it is useful for gaining true control of the shoulder and once they are in a double they rarely go back to a snaffle for flatwork or hacking etc. It isn't about hanging on the curb "to get their head down" but as another tool. To fully understand how the curb worked my trainer asked me to ride one of his horses just off the curb and it was the lightest thing imaginable - I doubt I could ride one of mine just off the curb though!
 
Cortez said:
Cop out? The double bridle is the endgame, that's where it's all headed, it's the refinement tool, the lightener, the educated goal. The snaffle is a blunt instrument, NOT the nicey-nicey "kind" option that everybody seems to think it is: it doesn't help the horse; the curb does. It's just a mind set really; I breathe a sigh of relief as soon as mine are ready for grown-up stuff, in the double (which is typically around Elementary work, five years old). And the ultimate goal is riding on the curb alone, one handed - my two best horses are infinitely happier and better this way, but it takes a long time to get there.
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This. A double bridle is not a cop out. It is refinement and that is where, if you listen to your horse, he is telling you he is at. He can do the work, but he can hear you better when he is in the double, so use it. Doubles aren't used (or at least shouldn't be) for force. They are used to be able to have a clearer line of communication to the point that even contact is not really needed.

Takes a while to get there, but like Cortez, when I ride a horse that is ready for it, I stop worrying about what is happening in their mouth.

You're beginning a new chapter in your journey with him....enjoy it :-)
 
To add, and I may be shot down in flames for this (although it wans't my decision!) - when I was in Germany, everything was ridden in a Tellington Jones bit, which, for those not familiar, is a scary looking bit of kit! As soon as they were backed and ridden away, they went into the TJ, with the rationale that it was better to ride with a very light hand on a lethal looking curb, than it was to be heavy handed in a snaffle. All the horses had beautiful mouths, worked very up and light, and muscled up correctly from the outset. Admittedly, these were horses who were ridden by very experienced, educated dressage riders, and it would have been a very bad thing if this weren't the case. You had to earn the right to ride them (which took months of lunging with no reins and stirrups, then more months developing feel on an old GP horse who was there for that purpose) - so they were never in any danger of being pulled around/abused.
 
Cortez said:
Cop out? The double bridle is the endgame, that's where it's all headed, it's the refinement tool, the lightener, the educated goal. The snaffle is a blunt instrument, NOT the nicey-nicey "kind" option that everybody seems to think it is: it doesn't help the horse; the curb does. It's just a mind set really; I breathe a sigh of relief as soon as mine are ready for grown-up stuff, in the double (which is typically around Elementary work, five years old). And the ultimate goal is riding on the curb alone, one handed - my two best horses are infinitely happier and better this way, but it takes a long time to get there.
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My old dressage trainer, insists I ride in a double bridle (even though we are only working at a very lowly level). In her best FBHS shouty voice 'CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS ARE FAR KINDER TO YOUR HORSE'! My horse's both go far better in a double bridle because I have more tools available to give clear and precise instruction.
 
Baggybreeches said:
My old dressage trainer, insists I ride in a double bridle (even though we are only working at a very lowly level). In her best FBHS shouty voice 'CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS ARE FAR KINDER TO YOUR HORSE'! My horse's both go far better in a double bridle because I have more tools available to give clear and precise instruction.
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Same here - on my previous horse my instructor recommended I use a double and he went so much better. I found it kept my hands much stiller (this might have been her intention, giving me two reins to work with!) and he was much lighter in the contact, barely needed to use the curb really. But I went to a dressage clinic and they put me back into the snaffle, and we regressed imo.

Am contemplating trying out the double with the new horse but not sure if I'm not good enough to use it!
 
I've got an advanced horse who I was dying to put in a double when he was 5 because he was so strong in a snaffle - he just powered through it, but my trainer wouldn't let me as he said the horse wasn't ready.

Now he's competing inter 1, he has a load more buttons to press, and he's still strong in a snaffle! He's lovely in his double, now we've found the right Weymouth for him, light and responsive, with containable, usable power. He hacks and jumps in his snaffle, but it's the double all the way on the flat :-)
 
Really interesting thread!!

I could weep!!!! There were many times when I thought I should've put the old boy in a double (we were schooling Elem/Medium but never moved upto Elem in comps because I thought what's the point, we won't stand a chance against the big, flashy warmbloods.... and then he was sold :() but didn't because I thought it would be a 'cop out' etc. However I rode him in one twice for showing and like you say, was barely touching the kerb yet I had a completely different horse. He had bodypopping down to a fine art and sometimes, he'd be going wonderfully and then I'd just lose him slightly through an outside shoulder or he'd fall in a bit (rider error I know) and I'd lose it all. When he went well, he REALLY went well but it was such hard work because to be fair he wasn't built for it. But those 2 times I rode him in a double, he was up and light and worked completely through (albeit with slightly more leg) and actually seemed a lot more comfortable and I noticed I was a lot nicer/better with my hands too but it never really twigged with me.

So wish I'd just said ****** it and played about a bit more with a double now, however like you, wouldn't have liked to use it all the time as it would've felt like I was 'cheating'
 
spacefaer said:
I've got an advanced horse who I was dying to put in a double when he was 5 because he was so strong in a snaffle - he just powered through it, but my trainer wouldn't let me as he said the horse wasn't ready.
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My trainer advised me to put my then 4 year old in a double, and when she had more self carriage she could be ridden in 'whatever else you want'. Said horse is now 16 and has gone in a double or a sprenger KK ultra for all her life.
 
Perfect_Pirouette said:
Really interesting thread!!

I could weep!!!! There were many times when I thought I should've put the old boy in a double (we were schooling Elem/Medium but never moved upto Elem in comps because I thought what's the point, we won't stand a chance against the big, flashy warmbloods.... and then he was sold :() but didn't because I thought it would be a 'cop out' etc. However I rode him in one twice for showing and like you say, was barely touching the kerb yet I had a completely different horse. He had bodypopping down to a fine art and sometimes, he'd be going wonderfully and then I'd just lose him slightly through an outside shoulder or he'd fall in a bit (rider error I know) and I'd lose it all. When he went well, he REALLY went well but it was such hard work because to be fair he wasn't built for it. But those 2 times I rode him in a double, he was up and light and worked completely through (albeit with slightly more leg) and actually seemed a lot more comfortable and I noticed I was a lot nicer/better with my hands too but it never really twigged with me.

So wish I'd just said ****** it and played about a bit more with a double now, however like you, wouldn't have liked to use it all the time as it would've felt like I was 'cheating'
Click to expand...

Another thing my old trainer said was that it was better to come last in an Elementary with your horse being 'ridden as you would normally' than to tolerate lower levels and struggle with a snaffle.
 
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