Double bridle help!

[Evem]

Hoping for some wisdom and ideas. I have a PRE who is being ridden in a double but goes through periods of hating having it out on - fine with ordinary snaffle
I have a horsemanship person out this week to help, I’ve recently put a gel pad under the poll but happy to explore bit choices too… currently on an egbut single joint and a NS slimma.
He’s lovely in trot but had periods of backing off in canter when he’s asked to be collected - to the point of getting stressed about transitions up.
Any thoughts / ideas about thinner(?) bits etc welcome

 

[DressageCob]

I wouldn't go thinner if the horse is backing off. I went thicker when my horse was backing off because my hands aren't good enough to use the more pronounced feel you have with a thin weymouth. He's so much happier now in the thicker sprenger.

 

[Evem]

I wouldn't go thinner if the horse is backing off. I went thicker when my horse was backing off because my hands aren't good enough to use the more pronounced feel you have with a thin weymouth. He's so much happier now in the thicker sprenger.

I do agree but I’m wondering if he’s feeling like it’s too much in his mouth??

 

[Leandy]

Have you had a bit person out to help and look at the conformation of his mouth to see what type of bits may suit him? Otherwise you are just guessing. What does your trainer say? It may be a rider or training issue rather than a bit issue also. How old is he and what level is he working at? I'm not sure what you mean by a "horsemanship person".

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Do you own my last PRE? ?


With these horses you can't go too thick because they often don't have enough room in their mouths, but I was able to go with a thicker weymouth than I thought he would like.

It can be a minefield because mine liked a ported Weymouth and a double jointed fixed ring snaffle (didn't like double jointed normally). I also used a leather chain cover, and obviously, don't do the chain up to tight!

These horses tend to be "too light" or have more of a tendency to back off. You don't have to use the weymouth at all, and maybe do canter work all on or mostly on the snaffle for a bit and slowly introduce pressure with the weymouth if you think you really need it.

Mine just needed to get used to it a bit, and then ended up being quite comfortable. He'd really be dramatic in the canter at times, so I always made sure I had a forward hand and didn't ball him up too much or use more pressure than needed. Is he like this with all riders in this bridle, or just you?

Mine also really liked titanium bits (Fager) due to the lightness, having no taste, and warming up quickly, I think.

 

[Evem]

Have you had a bit person out to help and look at the conformation of his mouth to see what type of bits may suit him? Otherwise you are just guessing. What does your trainer say? It may be a rider or training issue rather than a bit issue also. How old is he and what level is he working at? I'm not sure what you mean by a "horsemanship person".

Not had a bit person out as such.. to some extent there is a training issue but not sure if he can associate ‘I have to do what I’m told’ with this in and ‘I do want to have the bridle on’
The horsemanship person is someone who works on ground work etc and I’m hoping she has a method of reducing his stress around having the bridle put on

 

[Evem]

Do you own my last PRE? ?


With these horses you can't go too thick because they often don't have enough room in their mouths, but I was able to go with a thicker weymouth than I thought he would like.

It can be a minefield because mine liked a ported Weymouth and a double jointed fixed ring snaffle (didn't like double jointed normally). I also used a leather chain cover, and obviously, don't do the chain up to tight!

These horses tend to be "too light" or have more of a tendency to back off. You don't have to use the weymouth at all, and maybe do canter work all on or mostly on the snaffle for a bit and slowly introduce pressure with the weymouth if you think you really need it.

Mine just needed to get used to it a bit, and then ended up being quite comfortable. He'd really be dramatic in the canter at times, so I always made sure I had a forward hand and didn't ball him up too much or use more pressure than needed. Is he like this with all riders in this bridle, or just you?

Mine also really liked titanium bits (Fager) due to the lightness, having no taste, and warming up quickly, I think.

They are ‘fun’ aren’t they! He’s had 2 different types of Weymouths and bradoons and felt the same in the hand.. both types he’s had a problem bridling
He is very dramatic in canter at the moment .. he’s got the attitude of if he can’t take over he won’t go.. he does like to curl but was setting against a snaffle making him curl more - I’ve found I can ride more forward in the double but have an actual half halt as well.
I’ll have a look at the Fabre bits as well.. thanks for the suggestion!

 

[nikkimariet]

Rooni is super light but has a really low palate so I can’t get away with a thicker bit on him. Gets on well with the 12mm single joint Novocontact. He’s in the HO 12mm 7cm curb in the double. I like to alternate between snaffle and double to keep him confident in the hand.

 

[Leandy]

Not had a bit person out as such.. to some extent there is a training issue but not sure if he can associate ‘I have to do what I’m told’ with this in and ‘I do want to have the bridle on’
The horsemanship person is someone who works on ground work etc and I’m hoping she has a method of reducing his stress around having the bridle put on

Oh I see. I hadn't clocked that your issue was more putting it on rather than him coming behind the bit. I'd start with the bit person though if I were you. If he is not comfortable, his other behaviour is justifiable so not much point in trying to fix it until he is comfortable (and then the problem may just disappear anyway).

 

[Evem]

Thanks all for your advice .. had a horsemanship person out today and it was interesting.. he was fine with lowering his head, totally ok with accepting a piece of rope as a bit and mostly ok with having a loop of rope being put on as you would a bit and headpiece..
The change in him when a bridle was brought in was shocking - he shut down and froze, wasn’t interested in the bridle at all.. after some time he showed some interest in sniffing the bridle and was ok with having it gently moved around on his face and ears.
We stopped at this point .. so will continue with the process with the snaffle till he’s 100% ok, then repeat with a Pelham before finally going back to the double.
I’m glad I stopped trying to force the issue as we were both very stressed - he is clearly more bothered about any bridle than I thought..

 

[Evem]

Oh I see. I hadn't clocked that your issue was more putting it on rather than him coming behind the bit. I'd start with the bit person though if I were you. If he is not comfortable, his other behaviour is justifiable so not much point in trying to fix it until he is comfortable (and then the problem may just disappear anyway).

That’s ok .. I’m not sure if they are or aren’t connected - not comfortable at all. I’ve posted an update below

 

[Evem]

Rooni is super light but has a really low palate so I can’t get away with a thicker bit on him. Gets on well with the 12mm single joint Novocontact. He’s in the HO 12mm 7cm curb in the double. I like to alternate between snaffle and double to keep him confident in the hand.

Thanks , once he’s less stressed at the concept I’ll have a look at these!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

He's not comfortable with something. Whether it's the bridle (really look at its adjustment and fit behind the ears, where your noseband is, and how the bit sits), or in his work. PRE's are sensitive and IME when they clearly tell you NO like that, something is really wrong.

I'd just ride in the snaffle and really focus on your riding, what you're doing, and what you're asking him. Give him some really confidence building rides in the snaffle.

I also don't really see the need for a Pelham as some sort of in between step.

Is he OK with saddling? And his mouth is alright? I'm assuming wolf teeth are out already?

 

[Evem]

He's not comfortable with something. Whether it's the bridle (really look at its adjustment and fit behind the ears, where your noseband is, and how the bit sits), or in his work. PRE's are sensitive and IME when they clearly tell you NO like that, something is really wrong.

I'd just ride in the snaffle and really focus on your riding, what you're doing, and what you're asking him. Give him some really confidence building rides in the snaffle.

I also don't really see the need for a Pelham as some sort of in between step.

Is he OK with saddling? And his mouth is alright? I'm assuming wolf teeth are out already?

I’ve got a gel poll guard for him and gone up a browband size to reduce any pressure. The idea behind the Pelham was because he won’t take the Weymouth if I remove the bradoon so it was to try and find a middle ground for him before going back to the double. Hope that make sense!

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Have you had his poll checked by a physio or vet?

My mare was extremely worried about having a bridle put on when I first got her she had not been ridden for a few years previously, she had scar tissue in the poll area so vet thinks some sort of trauma, I got a physio to come and help her which really made a difference and she gave me quite a few stretches and things to do to help the situation it took a while but she definitely improved.

It could also be a poll issue because a Pelham and double will put a degree of pressure on the poll whereas a snaffle wouldn't, I couldn't use anything with poll pressure on my mare she just wouldn't tolerate it, I would definitely get a vet to check his not damaged it.

 

[Evem]

Have you had his poll checked by a physio or vet?

My mare was extremely worried about having a bridle put on when I first got her she had not been ridden for a few years previously, she had scar tissue in the poll area so vet thinks some sort of trauma, I got a physio to come and help her which really made a difference and she gave me quite a few stretches and things to do to help the situation it took a while but she definitely improved.

He is always tight around the poll but he’s generally a tense person - has physio every 6 to 8 weeks and I massage between - I am just a slave

 

[ycbm]

This sounds like a pain thing to me, not a behaviour thing. You might be able to train him to stop telling you he's being caused pain from the bridle but it won't, of course, stop him being caused pain from the bridle. I think I'd want a vet to look at him before another session from the behaviourist.

I've also heard of far too many horses where physios find the same knots every time and release them only for them to be back next time, who eventually turn out to have something wrong with them which was causing it all along.
.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I have to agree with ycbm I would get a vet before persevering.

I don't know how old he is or how long you have had him but I was told by my physio that poll damage/pain can be caused by to much hyperflexion (I think that's the right word) when they are young.

I'm in no way suggesting you have caused it but I know alot of Spanish horses are trained in quite a high level manor quite young quite quickly.

Was he backed and ridden away by yourself or somebody else do you know his history?

 

[Evem]

This sounds like a pain thing to me, not a behaviour thing. You might be able to train him to stop telling you he's being caused pain from the bridle but it won't, of course, stop him being caused pain from the bridle. I think I'd want a vet to look at him before another session from the behaviourist.

I've also heard of far too many horses where physios find the same knots every time and release them only for them to be back next time, who eventually turn out to have something wrong with them which was causing it all along.
.

Thank you

 

[Evem]

I have to agree with ycbm I would get a vet before persevering.

I don't know how old he is or how long you have had him but I was told by my physio that poll damage/pain can be caused by to much hyperflexion (I think that's the right word) when they are young.

I'm in no way suggesting you have caused it but I know alot of Spanish horses are trained in quite a high level manor quite young quite quickly.

Was he backed and ridden away by yourself or somebody else do you know his history?

He was ridden in hyper flexion before I had him and it’s taken 2 years to undo this - although he still wants to curl
He’s had full neck and poll X-rays

 

[ycbm]

He was ridden in hyper flexion before I had him and it’s taken 2 years to undo this - although he still wants to curl
He’s had full neck and poll X-rays

Damn. That really only leaves you an MRI and that's expensive

Can you just give up the double bridle, or is it a requirement for the level you plan to ride at?
.

 

[Evem]

Have you had his poll checked by a physio or vet?

My mare was extremely worried about having a bridle put on when I first got her she had not been ridden for a few years previously, she had scar tissue in the poll area so vet thinks some sort of trauma, I got a physio to come and help her which really made a difference and she gave me quite a few stretches and things to do to help the situation it took a while but she definitely improved.

It could also be a poll issue because a Pelham and double will put a degree of pressure on the poll whereas a snaffle wouldn't, I couldn't use anything with poll pressure on my mare she just wouldn't tolerate it, I would definitely get a vet to check his not damaged it.

He has regular physio and has had his poll X-rayed as well. He gets tight there but is fine with you rubbing the area etc

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

It's such a shame people don't realise the damage you can do with a young horse with the wrong training, I think I would just leave the double bridle for now it might just take a bit of time and hopefully he will be more trustful and eventually be happier with it.

 

[Evem]

Damn. That really only leaves you an MRI and that's expensive

Can you just give up the double bridle, or is it a requirement for the level you plan to ride at?
.

It’s a tricky one .. he blocks a half halt by shortening the neck .. put a stronger snaffle in and he locks and shortens even more… in the double (floppy Weymouth rein) I can ride more forward and have a far more responsive half halt with no block or shortening the neck .. plus the peeing off with me to spook also disappears!