Downunder Horsmanship - Clinton Anderson - OMG

I have reflected for a while on these criticisms of Clinton Anderson and his training methods and I invite all of you to take a step back from your little worlds and take a better look at his method and philosophy. You may have picked out a few scenes that when isolated look ugly, but note this, when we trained cross country there was a lot more hitting and use of pressure than this. Have non of you ever used whips or spurs at all???? What do you own a cuddly toy or a real animal? Horses are always taught by application of pressure and the release of pressure. Have you never watched horses in a field interacting with one another? Does your horse respect you on the ground as well as under saddle? I am not going to give you a lecture on Clinton Anderson, I hope you will beg borrow or steal some dvd, book or even better subscribe to his no worries club so you can view all his tv episodes. When you have really understood his philosophy, then you can criticise.
His methods have been a real eye opener for me, long unanswered questions have been made really clear, how my horse interacts with me, how to make sure my horse always knows what I am asking her to do, what I should expect of my horse on the ground and under saddle. You obviously have beautifully trained and well behaved horses but just wait until you have a problem or encounter dangerous behaviour. Do you just excuse the horse and risk an injury? or do you get the horse's respect first? Once you have established respect then most other issues will be easy to resolve. Lunging takes on a new dimension, you can really see the horse interacting with you, it is very exciting and inspiring. I believe many trainers are incorporating his techniques, why don't you try? Check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPdllcnn_Dk&p=0E8A4A8BA40BE213&playnext=1&index=2
can you do this with your horse? you could, he shows you how to do it from a to z. It has not been achieved through cruelty as you all think but by gaining the horses respect. Try not to be so petty and narrow minded.
 
<Yawn> He is riding bridleless in an arena Not so very hard to do at all.

I have yet to see horses in a field hit each other in the face for failing to be attentive. Have I missed something?

As I have stated countless times, respect has to be earned; 'respect' which is demanded is just another name for bullying.

And that is all the breathe I am going to waste on Clinton Anderson and his misguided devotees.
 
This is the same Clinton that advocates the use of electric shock collars for horses. Utterly unacceptable, utterly cruel. There may be some impressive end results, but for me the ends do not justify the means.
 
"This Clinton actually recommends that owners take their horses out for a ride and do not come back until the horses saddle pad is dripping wet!!!"

This is a strange thing, in american hunter/jumper circuit, they just adore the phrase 'wet saddle pad' and feel that it is the only way to train a horse.
 
"He is riding bridleless in an arena Not so very hard to do at all"

When I was very young, I rode a slightly wild horse (bought for meat money from a dealer, dont ask :p) and he got kicked in the face in the field and hurt his mouth, meaning that he couldn't have a bit in for a short period of time. Instead of doing what I would do if I was in a similar situation now (riding in a hackamore, lunging or loose schooling) I got up on him in the arena, and rode without anything on his head. After a week or two, we were pretty good, I could make him do more or less whatever I wanted, walk trot canter on each rein, stopping/starting, steering, leg yeild ect, and this was just a clueless kid on a badly behaved pony... So just backing up your point, riding without a bridle is not some magical thing that only NH trainers can achieve...
 
My TB mare was a nightmare to load on a trailer when I got her, I used the only "English" traditional ways I knew back then... i.e. bribe with food (NOT INTERESTED).... load another horse on before (WOULD EVENTUALLY GO), chase up from behind from another person (WOULD EVENTUALLY GO), lunge line behind the rear quarters (WOULD EVENTUALLY GO).... all these methods took up to an hour often to load. I even sedated her with Sedalin at times when I couldn't have anyone to help me load !!! I knew she wasn't that nervous of actualling travelling, as she'd happily eat on the way and was never sweated up ! All these English methods involved me being dragged about by my mare, a lot of protest rearing and diving off the ramp and to the sides.... block the sides of the ramp and the rearing commenced and the barging got worse !

About 8 months ago I watched Clinton Anderson dealing with a "difficult loader"... (an hour long programme...) I followed his techniques and within a few schooling sessions, (i.e. 2 weeks, couple of days each week doing 20 mins only) my horse started loading each and every time and with no need for 2 other people with me each time! Quite handy really.... I have not "bullied" my horse into doing this, she goes when I point with my long lead line, no whacking needed, (my mare had obviously been previously wacked by English people before..., as just holding a schooling whip seemed enough intimidation), no harshness, nothing cruel at all ! I do use an NH style rope halter, as with an english style padded one, the horse can lean and drag you about quite comfortably ! So I am a completely converted Clinton Anderson worshipper now !

Sorry to disappoint all those old fashioned English types, I mean, the English are meant to be the authority on horses throughout the world aren't we ???

But the negative comments above are obviously from people who.. A). haven't watched enough Clinton to understand fully. B). have perfect horses with no vices maybe, or C). are so stuck in some rut that they can't think or comprehend an easier and simpler way of dealing with the horses psychology... so therefore probably spend hours with a difficult loader, either trying to coax it in, or, intimidating it in... which I've seen far too many times in my life and that's usually to the detriment of the horses dignity ! For example I've seen a horse at a BHS riding school literally dragged in by about 6 men with a lunge line behind its hindquarters ! The poor thing had sat down like a dog and it still went in by physical force !!!
 
Hi ya all... I am a Clinton Fan... got all the DVD's. I think he is brill. When I first got my bolshy mare I was nervous, so I used Clintons methods on the ground and in the saddle(maybe with a little girlie softy mommsy touch, mars and venus and all that), we have a fab relationship 5 yrs on and I trust her totally. I can understand peoples views and once you are closed to something or made your mind up, its hard to come back. I like him because he is striaght and a good teacher of people, on the other hand, cannot be doing with Parelli horsanality and all that mind stuff, just cut to the chase, Monty Roberts, nice guy but slow and boring to watch. Just off to dry out my wet saddle pad, got left out in the rain ha!
 
Wow, lots of Kool Aid drinkers on here.

I don't have much of an issue with the NH guru's as I do their followers. Because for most of us who do get it, we realize they have not reinvented the wheel and we already use these practices with our horses on a daily basis and have done for quite some time. No not playing games, but just common sense horse stuff.

But see I like to ride too so the whole game playing crap doesn't suit me nor do I care that you think it helps you bond with ponykins.

Watching DVD's, going to a few clinics, joining clubs is all fine and well, but when things don't go according to the 10 step plan who is there to help you out? Because I have seen people get hurt and horses get hurt because people didn't really get it.

Somewhere along the line things got blurred with horses. We all the sudden needed to pretend there was a fairytale ending. Look I love my horses more than anything in the world. My old guy doesn't need to be led in by a headcollar and rope, he follows me, but if I ask someone else to go and get him with one he generally tries to take the p""s out of them by trying to run into the barn. My now 6yo was ridden in from the fields at 3 before ever being broke with just a head collar and rope. But it is respect, not fairytale love, that makes my horses the way they are. And I also know that their love for me is of the cupboard variety.

And no I don't go around beating my horses at any instance but a smack on the shoulder for offences such as biting is in order. They are 1000pd plus animals and will get treated with this in mind. Ever watch a mare discipline her foal? Especially when that foal doesn't listen? They get the message pretty quick and it isn't in a nice way.

So yeah, NH gurus may be speaking to you in a language you now want to hear but it is in a nice neat little package. Problem is that it has been around for eons. Previous to these guys showing up you all seem to think that all horses were abused, beaten, and bucked out during the breaking process and in life in general. Most of the time, horses aren't difficult to figure out and most of the time you just need to be smarter than your horse and forget the fairytale la di da crap. Then you might enjoy them more.

Terri
 
im sorry, i know i'm just going to open a can of worms, but i jut dont get it... how is this a training method?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80925308/

and its not an isolated incident, i see people calling it natural and doing things like this woman all the time. I think NH and Rolkeur or more correctly LDR( i may be making my own noose here upon which i shall be hung:o) are the same. When done right in experienced hands they can have a very posative effect. when done badly a total disaster and extreamly physicaly and mentaly detrimental. Unfortunately in both cases there is so little room for error.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Wow, lots of Kool Aid drinkers on here.

I don't have much of an issue with the NH guru's as I do their followers. Because for most of us who do get it, we realize they have not reinvented the wheel and we already use these practices with our horses on a daily basis and have done for quite some time. No not playing games, but just common sense horse stuff.

But see I like to ride too so the whole game playing crap doesn't suit me nor do I care that you think it helps you bond with ponykins.

Watching DVD's, going to a few clinics, joining clubs is all fine and well, but when things don't go according to the 10 step plan who is there to help you out? Because I have seen people get hurt and horses get hurt because people didn't really get it.

Somewhere along the line things got blurred with horses. We all the sudden needed to pretend there was a fairytale ending. Look I love my horses more than anything in the world. My old guy doesn't need to be led in by a headcollar and rope, he follows me, but if I ask someone else to go and get him with one he generally tries to take the p""s out of them by trying to run into the barn. My now 6yo was ridden in from the fields at 3 before ever being broke with just a head collar and rope. But it is respect, not fairytale love, that makes my horses the way they are. And I also know that their love for me is of the cupboard variety.

And no I don't go around beating my horses at any instance but a smack on the shoulder for offences such as biting is in order. They are 1000pd plus animals and will get treated with this in mind. Ever watch a mare discipline her foal? Especially when that foal doesn't listen? They get the message pretty quick and it isn't in a nice way.

So yeah, NH gurus may be speaking to you in a language you now want to hear but it is in a nice neat little package. Problem is that it has been around for eons. Previous to these guys showing up you all seem to think that all horses were abused, beaten, and bucked out during the breaking process and in life in general. Most of the time, horses aren't difficult to figure out and most of the time you just need to be smarter than your horse and forget the fairytale la di da crap. Then you might enjoy them more.

Terri
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Not quite sure where this general rant fits in with the context of the thread? Oh well I suppose everyone is entitled to their say whether it makes sense or not. I think she is speaking against NH, in which case I agree, but it isn't very fair to lump all of them alongside the rather nasty Clinton Anderson.

FWIW I believe he is far far worse than the old-school traditional trainers, and is an accident waiting to happen.
 
I meant it in the sense that these threads are all the same. Flame NH guy and then get the NH followers saying why they are right. All the threads are similar. Maybe CA is far worse, don't know because only watched a few snippets before boredom set in. I personally don't dislike them as there are things I use that people would say you got that from so and so. Nope, learned that from other horseman over 35 plus years with horses. People today don't seem to get that, that this has been around for ages. It's just not been packaged so clever in the past, and that's fine too. But I do believe it gives very novice horse people a sense of being better than what they are and this leads to problems for both horse and rider. Some things you just learn over years and years of dealing with many different horses.

A friend of mine is a big NH follower and that's fine. But she came to me in tears wondering why her ex racehorse was not paying attention to her on the lunge when she was doing exactly as taught and read how to do. I simply said her horse did not read the book so she might need a little more time to show him what she wanted.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
I meant it in the sense that these threads are all the same. Flame NH guy and then get the NH followers saying why they are right. All the threads are similar. Maybe CA is far worse, don't know because only watched a few snippets before boredom set in. I personally don't dislike them as there are things I use that people would say you got that from so and so. Nope, learned that from other horseman over 35 plus years with horses. People today don't seem to get that, that this has been around for ages. It's just not been packaged so clever in the past, and that's fine too. But I do believe it gives very novice horse people a sense of being better than what they are and this leads to problems for both horse and rider. Some things you just learn over years and years of dealing with many different horses. A friend of mine is a big NH follower and that's fine. But she came to me in tears wondering why her ex racehorse was not paying attention to her on the lunge when she was doing exactly as taught and read how to do. I simply said her horse did not read the book so she might need a little more time to show him what she wanted.

Terri
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That to me is one of the biggest problems and also the reasoning behind the explosion in NH and its followers. The marketing and hype has made every novice think that they are capable and that there are easy shortcuts to both learning and to imparting their 'knowledge' to their horse.

Having watched many clinics and demos full of dappy women waving long ropes around I can only conclude that many have more money than sense.

Nothing, but nothing, can replace experience and time spent watching and learning and the IQ to be able to identify the tried and tested techniques from the illusion and trickery.
 
spottybotty said:
I had not heard of this man until recently and I found this!!! I was quite shocked and appalled when I read this endorsment. Says it all really to me about the man and his methods!
http://www.tthorse.com/ae_clinton.asp

Apologies if this has been posted already, I have not read the whole thread.
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Sounds to me like this is an adaption of the E-collar used on dogs which if they are used correctly can be of great benefit in dog training.

It did mention more than once in the article that any piece of equipment is only as good as the person using it.
 
Allover said:
Sounds to me like this is an adaption of the E-collar used on dogs which if they are used correctly can be of great benefit in dog training.

It did mention more than once in the article that any piece of equipment is only as good as the person using it.
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Sounds to me like he is advocating punishing a horse for having a 'vice'. Many of these are really stereotypies and very often caused by the horse being stressed. Giving a stressed horse an electric shock will help how??

Just awful :(
 
Allover said:
Sounds to me like this is an adaption of the E-collar used on dogs which if they are used correctly can be of great benefit in dog training.

It did mention more than once in the article that any piece of equipment is only as good as the person using it.
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I would never use this method on a dog , never mind a horse! In this article he is talking about using it on a stallion to repress its natural behaviour around mares FFS! We all might as well go out and buy ourselves a cattle prod and use that to train our horses.
 
roo2012 said:
Sounds to me like he is advocating punishing a horse for having a 'vice'. Many of these are really stereotypies and very often caused by the horse being stressed. Giving a stressed horse an electric shock will help how??

Just awful :(
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As it says in the article, it can work to stop unwanted behaviour, up to the individual as to wether they want to use it or not.
 
spottybotty said:
I would never use this method on a dog , never mind a horse! In this article he is talking about using it on a stallion to repress its natural behaviour around mares FFS! We all might as well go out and buy ourselves a cattle prod and use that to train our horses.
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If you have seen some of the other "methods" employed to supress a stallions behaviour around mares, quite frankly a quick electric pulse is a damn sight kinder.
 
ok so there are lots of pros and cons for NH, personally its not my cup of tea, but SOMETIMES i can understand it.
I you tubed clinton though and found this video, poor horsey just doesn't look happy, I don't know the history etc. of this horse, what I do however find disturbing is the fact that the crowd are laughing! Its almost like the horse is 'stupid' not frightened, confused or scared, we should respect these animals not take the p1$$ out of them! :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg9ueBkhqDE&NR=1
 
Allover said:
If you have seen some of the other "methods" employed to supress a stallions behaviour around mares, quite frankly a quick electric pulse is a damn sight kinder.
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please tell me i'm miss reading this and your not saying that useing electric to train a horse is in any way acceptable because its not as bad as other methods you have seen:eek:
 
silver zaanif said:
please tell me i'm miss reading this and your not saying that useing electric to train a horse is in any way acceptable because its not as bad as other methods you have seen:eek:
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As it states in the article, we train horses to respect fencing with electricity, sometimes this is connected to the mains which is a damn sight stronger, i presume, than this collar. Rightly or wrongly people have used electric tape on top of doors to stop wind suckers.

Why is it ok then to stick sharp bits of metal in their sides to make them go faster, why is it ok to stick a lump of metal in their mouth to make them stop, why is it ok to strap their heads down and ride them off balance and confused?

And i have seen cases, with dogs only, where the e-collar has proved to be a life saver, literally.
 
but Allover, it not ok to ride a horse like that, just because it happens it is not ok. spurs should not be 'stuck in to make them go faster' bits are not to make a horse stop, these are refinements of the aids, and some 'tools' or techniques should never be used whatever the rusult they apparently get. compareing an training method used on dogs, to that used on horses is extremly misguided, not to say that electric on dogs is a good idea either.
and as for electric fence , it is not tied to the horse.:mad:
 
No but these things are available and open to abuse, as would the "e-collar" be.

The electric fence comes into play when the horse is showing "undesirable" behaviour i.e. touching or pushing at the fence. It gets a shock and learns not to do that behaviour again. The collar would not be turned on to an electric stimulous all the time i would presume.

E-collars (the ones that i have come accross) are not painful, they are a light "shock", used after a vibration. I can understand the principle of them.
 
I quite like watching CA. He is a performer, and at least he doesn't tell you one thing and then does another behind the scenes, which is something I've seen on 2 occasions with 2 of the well respected big names....now that is shocking, especially when they advocate gentleness etc etc and turn out to be anything but in their real life!
 
Allover said:
No but these things are available and open to abuse, as would the "e-collar" be.

The electric fence comes into play when the horse is showing "undesirable" behaviour i.e. touching or pushing at the fence. It gets a shock and learns not to do that behaviour again. The collar would not be turned on to an electric stimulous all the time i would presume.

E-collars (the ones that i have come accross) are not painful, they are a light "shock", used after a vibration. I can understand the principle of them.
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i think we may have to agree to dissagree on this one:eek::(
 
fluffalina said:
I quite like watching CA. He is a performer,
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He's a performer alright! He performs acts of gross stupidity - accompanied by moronic commentary! If he was dealing with lumps of wood I could laugh at him! Sadly, he's dealing with live, sensitive animals! If that's the sort of thing that passes for horse 'training' in Oz these days, then I'm glad I left!
 
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