Dr Bristol not legal for dressage?

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superpony

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I was reading the BD rules as i'm thinking of trying out affliated, as we have had success at riding club level prelim. However either I have just skipped past it or dr bristol's arn't allowed?

So as i believe they are not allowed, does anyone have any suggests for what to try him in? I've got a hanging cheek and he does not go well in that at all. And an eggbutt he just tanks off with me with. So any suggestions?

Hes an opinionated 14.2hh welsh x arab by the way.. who generally thinks he knows best! So ideally something which i can hold him in when he does occasionally decide that he doesn't agree with me!
 
No a Dr Bristol is not allowed.

I'd try a french link snaffle and the action is very similar in the mouth but the central link is not angled into the tongue like a Dr Bristol. You won't have quite the same stopping power but you shouldn't need it in a dressage arena, if you can't stop in a dressage legal bit then schooling and lessons are the answer.

You can go back to yoru Dr Bristol for other things where you do need extra brakes if you need to.

Remember that grackle nosebands aren't allowed either, so if he opens his mouth try a drop noseband.
 
Ok I am going to be quite opinionated here - but if you are using a Dr Bristol you are not going to ever get a good contact as every time you half halt you are digging into the tongue. You cannot be soft with a dr bristol and I think there is a comment in Alois Pollmann-Schweckorst about it being the equivalent of letting the rider loose with a razor blade and has no place in modern riding.

You need to practise transitions and if necessary change to something like a pelham or double to train the horse to stop and listen with a fraction of the normal aids.

A welsh x arab, should have a fleshy tongue made in a delicate mouth. So not entirely surprised they listen to a Dr B.

I would sugget swapping to something like an ergonomically shaped lozenge snaffle - probably around 12mm if your hose is to breed type.
 
OK, I always used a Dr Bristol on my eventing pony in the cross country phase, never had any issues with it and found it gave me the bit of extra control I needed to get him back for combinations - otherwise we were jumping in too big and were too close to second and third elements. For dressage I used a normal french link with a flash - also used the flash with the Dr Bristol. I disagree that you can't be soft with a Dr Bristol, I think they are great as long as they are used in the right way.
 
I wouldn't have an issue with using a Dr Bristol xc that is exactly the sort of time they can be useful and of course there are two ways to fit them so they don't have to be overly harsh. I think they are no worse than a waterford tbh.

But totally unsuitable for dressage.

I think a french link or a lozenge/peanut joint would be the best bet, and I wouldn't go for a flash, try a drop, you get a better effect without needing to tighten it so much. Visit the sustainable dressage website for a good explanation of why.
 
CotswoldSJ said:
You cannot be soft with a dr bristol and I think there is a comment in Alois Pollmann-Schweckorst about it being the equivalent of letting the rider loose with a razor blade and has no place in modern riding.

.
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Alois Podhajsky surely?!? The popular and successful show jumper Mr Pollmann-Schweckhorst hasn't (to my knowledge anyway) written books on equitation...lol
 
CotswoldSJ said:
Ok I am going to be quite opinionated here - but if you are using a Dr Bristol you are not going to ever get a good contact as every time you half halt you are digging into the tongue. You cannot be soft with a dr bristol and I think there is a comment in Alois Pollmann-Schweckorst about it being the equivalent of letting the rider loose with a razor blade and has no place in modern riding.
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Totally disagree with that i'm afraid.

Pilfer wears a Dr.B for all jumping and he goes beautifully in it- you have a lovely firm, elastic contact, he jumps brilliantly in it making a lovely shape.

if it was akin to barbed wire would the horse not protest a little more?
Pilfer has worn this for at least 7 years for jumping at BE PN/Novice and he seems very happy with his instrument of torture.

Surely it is the same as the horror expressed in the New Lounge at 4 ring gags?
horses for courses and if the horse is happy with the bit and happy in its work i haven't got an issue.
 
bahumbug said:
Alois Podhajsky surely?!? The popular and successful show jumper Mr Pollmann-Schweckhorst hasn't (to my knowledge anyway) written books on equitation...lol
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Sorry its Elmar - Alois's brother who also competed internationally (http://www.amazon.com/Training-Modern-Jumper-Elmar-Pollmann-Schweckhorst/dp/1570763178)

Given I've spent ages making bits to give the tongue extra space, I have a particular dislike of Dr Bristols and Barry gags. Yes your horse may put up with it, but doesn't mean that it is particularly humane choice.

Yes I'd use a barry gag / Dr B on a bolter, but I wouldn't be asking for a "true" english contact in it. Would be more accepting of its use in XC, and fine for polo, but if you want to have a *contact* I think you should be finding a better bit to use.
 
CotswoldSJ said:
Sorry its Elmar - Alois's brother who also competed internationally (http://www.amazon.com/Training-Modern-Jumper-Elmar-Pollmann-Schweckhorst/dp/1570763178)

Given I've spent ages making bits to give the tongue extra space, I have a particular dislike of Dr Bristols and Barry gags. Yes your horse may put up with it, but doesn't mean that it is particularly humane choice.

Yes I'd use a barry gag / Dr B on a bolter, but I wouldn't be asking for a "true" english contact in it. Would be more accepting of its use in XC, and fine for polo, but if you want to have a *contact* I think you should be finding a better bit to use.
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Oooh interesting re the book - will take a look at it. BTW I can agree with you in outline re Dr Bs and the contact issue, but as another who has very successfully used for XC for more refined control on particular horses I think it's a very good piece of kit if used on the right beast in the right way.
 
I use a DrB on my Novice event horse. He goes really well in it, I only swap to a french link for Dr so that I'm leagal, but he has a much steadier contact in the DrB.

Every horse is different, I find it quite arrogant when people say things like "but if you want to have a *contact* I think you should be finding a better bit to use. " and "You cannot be soft with a dr bristol"

Every horse is different, every rider is different
 
I already disclaimed my posts to be opinionated, if you think that's arrogant then so be it!

I just think that often people say "he goes really well in it", when in reality the Dr B is the bit everyone has hanging around as they are cheap and plentiful. People find a bit where they get brakes and horse is "softer" (as having something dug into the tongue does tend to prevent leaning!) job done, sorted.

So the question is - your horse might go *really well* in it, but would you form a better partnership if every mistake from you wasn't digging into the poor chaps tongue???
 
Well if a French link isn't good enough look at the "peanut" or "lozenge" bits, legal as technically French Link but look long and hard at the peanut and lozenge part and you'll find many are more akin to a Dr Bristol but perfectly legal.
I'll duck and cover now ;) Rode my big 17hh lad in a Dr Bristol for hacking as he had the occasional "moment" worked like a charm and he competed beautifully in a proper flat french link.
 
No one said it's not a useful and appropriate bit for some circumstances, only that it's not suitable - or legal so it's all moot anyway - for the sort of contact correct competitive dressage riding demands. You can't use other "edge" bits or leverage bits either, no one says they're not useful for other things.

Anyway, the reason they back horses off is the edge digs into the tongue. That's the point and that's why someone would use it - to pretend that's not what's happening just doesn't make sense. It may WORK situationally, but what's the point of denying WHY it works? It causes discomfort, more so than a regular smooth snaffle. Just like bits with a twist or corkscrew make for thinner, sharper bearing surfaces. Or like leverage bits produce significantly increased force on the horse without the rider "knowing".

Doesn't mean it's wrong but it is why such bits aren't allowed in dressage.
 
nobody is denying that the Dr.B works because it causes discomfort- however isn't that what most bits that give you brakes do?

Pilfer is in a Dr.B because anything that acts mainly on the bars of his mouth causes him to head twitch extremely violently- he doesn't do that in the Dr.B so i presume he is happier in it?
he doesn't 'put up with it' he goes very well in it and imo there is a huge difference.

he has managed to win 2 x PN and been placed numnerous times with different riders all with his Dr.B for jumping and yes you do have a 'proper English contact' in it.
as i said it is a firm, elastic contact- he is still taking you to the fence not backing off the contact or lightening too much.

out of interest, what contact do you have xc if not a 'proper contact?'
is there any difference between the contact you want for sj and the contact you want at combinations/skinnys xc?

and as for people using it just because it is cheap and plentiful- i don't really understand that?
i don't actually know that many people who use them and think the most common bit used for brakes is probably the 4 ring gag.

CotswoldSJ- i actually have 3 x bits from your site for my other horses and Millie in particular goes better in the curved mouthpiece.

however, i don't really understand comparing the Dr.B with barbed wire or saying it isn't humane but its ok to use a gag bit or similar as long as it has a curved mouthpiece?

surely some horses prefer bar pressure and some prefer tongue pressure?

and as for the comment about a better relationship with my horse... seriously??
my 'poor chap' is the grey in my sig below- check out how unhappy he is with me pulling at his tongue.
 
Anyhow, back to the OP . . . ;)

Your best place to start would likely be a French link snaffle similar to your Dr Bristol. The annoying bit is there are a couple of different link shapes to choose from and which would suit your horse best is probably down to trial and error. Do you have anyone to borrow off of? There are also the Myler snaffle mouthpieces, which have a barrel in the centre to stop the arms of the snaffle from closing completely.

You aren't going to be able to find anything "harsh" or with any sort of edge that's also dressage legal. But individual preference can make a huge difference to a strong horse. At least you can cross off the single joint options if you've tried it before.
 
OK need to retract the above - its wasn't the Elmar P-S book, it was Ernest Dillon in the book 'Show jumping for fun or glory'.

Quoted from the book (Ernest not me!) "I would not consider using a Dr Bristol. In my opinion this bit should be banned - it is like putting a razor blade in the horse's mouth"

millitiger said:
out of interest, what contact do you have xc if not a 'proper contact?' is there any difference between the contact you want for sj and the contact you want at combinations/skinnys xc?
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I am referring to English contact in dressage terms, since the OP question was on dressage. Its less objectionable to use XC as the period you are asking for collection and will have 'heavy' contact is brief (i.e. for a jump, you don't ask them to gallop round the course on the bit... )

I did not say barbed wire, so that's a misquote.

Sustainable Dressage also have a similar take on the Dr B http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php

I think the reason I get so emotional about this bit is that snaffle-loving people tend to pick it thinking its the next logical step to bitting. So think it is less severe than other bits, but don't really give ergonomics much thought. Plus the only way for a horse to avoid a Dr B would be to stick its tongue out, but then most people simply strap the mouth shut. Its a major peeve for me.
 
sorry razor blade, not barbed wire :)

out of interest, do you think it shouldn't be used for sj either?

i don't think it is the next logical step in bitting- i have tried a huge amount of bits on Pilfer to see if there was something else better for him and tried lots of different nosebands as well.
80% of the bits tried didn't give enough brakes and 20% he refused to go forwards into. he is quite a complex character to be bitted as he also has a major headtwitch if he isn't happy with his bridle/ bitting arrangements!

i understand the ergonomics (hence the other horses having the curved mouthpieces :)) and have had horses in Hippus bits before so i do pay a lot of attention to the horse being happy in the contact; i'm not after a quick or cheap fix.

i may be getting a bit hotted up about this but i do feel a bit offended when people use phases like "poor chap", "razor blade" ;), saying i should look at getting a better relationship with my horse etc when i have looked at lots of different options for Pilfer and always come back to the Dr.B as that is what he is happiest in (and yes he is happy in it, not just enduring it).

OP, Pilfer is in a very straight, hanging cheek with a fat lozenge for dressage and a drop noseband so everything is very still in his mouth (he hates looserings!)- perhaps something to try?
 
millitiger said:
out of interest, do you think it shouldn't be used for sj either?
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By anyone without an idependent seat and good hands, no. Quiet riders who know what they are doing are fine.

From what you've described you've given it plenty of thought and tried lots of alternative and this bit works for you. I'm ok with that, but believe you are probably in a minority (which is a shame!).

I've just seen lots of Dr B's out hunting usually with the rider balancing on the end of the reins.
 
To pick up the point of NS bits - I have a little mare who can (if the mood takes her) be very very strong. I did (10 years ago) have her in a single jointed eggbut - come hell or high water, if she took off, that was it! Couldn't stop.

Tried various bits - most of the avalible ones to me then, were single joints or straight bars/mullen mouths/ported. - so we tried kimblewicks, pelhams etc.

Shes now in a NS Tranz hanging cheek - shes soft, calm, relaxed.

It wasn't about fighting her with harsher bits, it was about finding 'her bit'. So now she has that for normal schooling, the same mouthpeice on a pelham for jumping, and an eggbutt version as the bradoon for her double - I have a different horse.
 
Thank you everyone for you advise on what bits to try with him. :)

In terms of him being unhappy or upset about having a dr bristol in his mouth.. well during the first couple of years of having him i have tried a number of bits with him, all of which he either tanked off with me while hacking especially or he wasn't happy in. This is the only bit which i've found he is happy in (hes been in it for 4-5 years). And it wasn't bought for economic reasons, i tried a friends and he went well in it. And he doesnt stick his tongue out.


Thanks everyone for your advice. :)
 
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