draw rein techinque..

[kerilli]

no its soft cord with a piece of leather with two rings which form the adjustment of length at the wither and as the horse stretches the leather moves across the back - it is NOT elastic. elastic would make people use it too tightly and cause far too much contacr. people are using draw reins instead of buying the aid and saving themselves £40 and using draw reins for something contructive!!!!

Exactly. Got it in one. I'm sure if it would work better in elastic then LB would use that.

Evelyn, the rein slides over the back, so both sides stay even. if the horse bends its head to the inside or outside, the rein moves. I do not think this is a bad thing.

Rouletterose, the one LB uses is not VERY STRETCHY ELASTIC (your capitals, not mine), it is made, as I said in a previous post, of "climbing rope." I linked to a picture and description of it. here again:
http://www.horseheroshop.com/prods/showprod.asp?pid=16367 "Laura has made some refinements to the Horse Hero version" - i think we can take from that that she approves of this model.

Instead of continually attacking those of us who chose to use this method as if we are clueless and cruel for using non-elastic webbing for this, why not read back and see what we've actually written.
As for "and this is why the horse will get a jab in the mouth!!!!!!" which bit of "fixing the reins to the lunge cavesson" (i.e. the noseband, not touching the mouth at all) which most of us do, don't you get? If you can tell me how that will jab the horse in the mouth, I'd love to know...
btw, LB is a lot more expert than any of us I'm sure, and gets fantastic results... oh, sorry, the 'experts' on here obviously think she's cruel and clueless to lunge her horses like this.

 

[Rouletterose]

Exactly. Got it in one. I'm sure if it would work better in elastic then LB would use that.

Evelyn, the rein slides over the back, so both sides stay even. if the horse bends its head to the inside or outside, the rein moves. I do not think this is a bad thing.

Rouletterose, the one LB uses is not VERY STRETCHY ELASTIC (your capitals, not mine), it is made, as I said in a previous post, of "climbing rope." I linked to a picture and description of it. here again:
http://www.horseheroshop.com/prods/showprod.asp?pid=16367 "Laura has made some refinements to the Horse Hero version" - i think we can take from that that she approves of this model.

Instead of continually attacking those of us who chose to use this method as if we are clueless and cruel for using non-elastic webbing for this, why not read back and see what we've actually written.
As for "and this is why the horse will get a jab in the mouth!!!!!!" which bit of "fixing the reins to the lunge cavesson" (i.e. the noseband, not touching the mouth at all) which most of us do, don't you get? If you can tell me how that will jab the horse in the mouth, I'd love to know...
btw, LB is a lot more expert than any of us I'm sure, and gets fantastic results... oh, sorry, the 'experts' on here obviously think she's cruel and clueless to lunge her horses like this.

I have already replied to the poster who said the rein used by LB is not elastic, that I stand corrected, and thanks for telling me, did you not read that? at least I'm humble enough to say that.

Also I was having a conversation with another poster with regard to the photos posted by 'I love foals' where the draw reins are attached to the bit and also the lunge line, if the horse spooks or even just tries to bring the head up to adjust the muscle pull then he will get a jab in the mouth.

I have not commented on you or your horse as you have already said you attach to the cavesson, so what exactly are you annoyed about?

 

[amage]

I can't understand how you are so convinced the horse gets jabbed in the mouth with this method....they don't! I use draw reins long enough that my mare can get her head as high as she likes without getting jabbed. I also use this method on all of our racehorses and have never yet come across a horse that doesn't figure out what to do. My own mare is fairly advanced in her way of going and this is a great tool to keep her loose across her back. Having shown my physio this method not only is he very impressed with it, he has asked me to meet several of his clients to show them! As to why lunge....variety is the spice of life!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Have never used this method so I'm quite interested to understand its advantages. The questions that spring to mind for me are, how does this work better than a harbridge and why is it preferrable to a pessoa, some posters mention disliking the pessoa but like this method. How is it better ?

If the line is designed to slide over the back, does it slide freely when the horse is hot and sweaty or will it stick ?

If the lines are not put on the snaffle rings, how does it teach the horse to seek a contact ? Or if by using it on the cavesson noseband, the aim is to encourage the horse working long and low, how does it work better than encouraging the young horse to settle, find its own balance and working long and low without aids ?

While LB's endorsement is nice, just because she does it,(even with her knowledge and expertise,) I'd quite like to understand why its so useful over other methods.

 

[kerilli]

horserider:
It slides fine on all of my horses, but I must admit I don't lunge them long enough for them to get hot and sweaty.
The way a lot of people seem to fit the Pessoa, quite tightly, (not all, obv) when the hindleg is in the stance phase, the bit on that side gets a real tug. I don't see that happening the same with this, perhaps because the back of the foreleg is narrow and upright unlike the large rounded back of the hindleg, and because this way the reins are loose enough that the bit (or cavesson) does NOT get yanked.
It doesn't teach the horse to seek a contact if it's only attached to the cavesson, obviously. as i stated above,
"i use it to show a horse that s/he can stretch forwards downwards and find the balance with head and neck out and low - obv this requires a shift of balance.
i don't want it to teach a horse how to seek the contact downwards - that's for me to do in the saddle with my seat, legs and hands.
i don't like lungeing in gadgets that are attached to the bit rings because i think they can punish the horse if it trips etc. this does not.
to the critics - fair enough. my horses like it, as do many others' horses. they swing forwards happily and relaxed in it, which is all i'm looking for at that stage."

i'll only add that, like amage, i've never had a horse fail to understand and therefore to work happily in it. i can't say that for the chambon, for example.
i've never used a harbridge but surely with that if the horse turns its head and neck the reins stay the same length (so, pulling at the outside bit ring), with this the slide allows the lengths to alter accordingly.

Rouletterose, i'm not really annoyed, just slightly exasperated that a few of us keep saying that the LB one isn't elastic, and various other things, and being ignored. Apologies if I came across too abruptly, please can I blame 15 nights of foal watch?

 

[amage]

Have never used this method so I'm quite interested to understand its advantages. The questions that spring to mind for me are, how does this work better than a harbridge and why is it preferrable to a pessoa, some posters mention disliking the pessoa but like this method. How is it better ?

If the line is designed to slide over the back, does it slide freely when the horse is hot and sweaty or will it stick ?

If the lines are not put on the snaffle rings, how does it teach the horse to seek a contact ? Or if by using it on the cavesson noseband, the aim is to encourage the horse working long and low, how does it work better than encouraging the young horse to settle, find its own balance and working long and low without aids ?

While LB's endorsement is nice, just because she does it,(even with her knowledge and expertise,) I'd quite like to understand why its so useful over other methods.

I have never had an issue with the reins not sliding but if you had concerns just spray a wee bit of mane and tail spray on the reins and it would definitely slide!! I find in my own experience that the horse works nicer in this than in the pessoa and is not in a fixed position. I do use the reins on the bit and have never ever had a horse get jabbed or hurt. TBH I think lunging properly is an artform and takes just as much skill as riding a horse successfully!

 

[Rouletterose]

horserider:
It slides fine on all of my horses, but I must admit I don't lunge them long enough for them to get hot and sweaty.
The way a lot of people seem to fit the Pessoa, quite tightly, (not all, obv) when the hindleg is in the stance phase, the bit on that side gets a real tug. I don't see that happening the same with this, perhaps because the back of the foreleg is narrow and upright unlike the large rounded back of the hindleg, and because this way the reins are loose enough that the bit (or cavesson) does NOT get yanked.
It doesn't teach the horse to seek a contact if it's only attached to the cavesson, obviously. as i stated above,
"i use it to show a horse that s/he can stretch forwards downwards and find the balance with head and neck out and low - obv this requires a shift of balance.
i don't want it to teach a horse how to seek the contact downwards - that's for me to do in the saddle with my seat, legs and hands.
i don't like lungeing in gadgets that are attached to the bit rings because i think they can punish the horse if it trips etc. this does not.
to the critics - fair enough. my horses like it, as do many others' horses. they swing forwards happily and relaxed in it, which is all i'm looking for at that stage."

i'll only add that, like amage, i've never had a horse fail to understand and therefore to work happily in it. i can't say that for the chambon, for example.
i've never used a harbridge but surely with that if the horse turns its head and neck the reins stay the same length (so, pulling at the outside bit ring), with this the slide allows the lengths to alter accordingly.

Rouletterose, i'm not really annoyed, just slightly exasperated that a few of us keep saying that the LB one isn't elastic, and various other things, and being ignored. Apologies if I came across too abruptly, please can I blame 15 nights of foal watch?

Yes.....you can blame 15 nights of foal watch, I would be exhausted too, passion in the world of the horse, for and against, is a good thing, I hope it never gets flat.....otherwise conversations like these just wouldn't happen, and they are great fun, even for an 'old school' like me.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Thanks for explaining, the Harbridge reins would stay the same length, good point, unless you adjust the inside rein as you could with side reins, but the draw reins would have the advantage of sliding freely, I can see that.

Lunging well is definitely an art, very true.

Have to dash off now to exercise the beasties, but will have food for thought.

 

[Kokopelli]

It's apparent that most people on this thread have never had a youngster/ horse that lacked topline.

The only way to build muscle on the back is to get the horse to use it. Working long and low builds back muscle very well as it makes them use there back and lunging like this encourages long and low.

In the pictures with the bay horse (sorry forgot your name) you can see the way the back is lifting up and the horse is actually using themselve.

 

[Caledonia]

i've never used a harbridge but surely with that if the horse turns its head and neck the reins stay the same length (so, pulling at the outside bit ring), with this the slide allows the lengths to alter accordingly.

I'm not defending the Harbridge here, because I don't particularly like it as the horse doesn't have the freedom to put it's head up, hence why it's used as a tool to keep them long and low. However it does work in exactly the same manner, ie the reins come from between the front legs, so the head is not tied to one side like draw reins.

 

[foxy1]

I found it worked very well on a TB ex-racer but on a (lazy) cob he just plopped along on his forehand with nose on the floor. Pessoa worked better on him. (whereas TB got very tense in the Pessoa so did not go well in it!)

Horses for courses as with all things. Another tool in the box and all that.

 

[Sanolly]

Working long and low is the first stage of teaching a horse to accept and seek the contact.

When done correctly the horse should NOT go behind the verticle, fall on the forehand, or lose the rhythm.

It encourages the horse to lift the back, stretch the top line muscles and to develop the carrying back muscles.

A true prelim outline is far lower than the outline expected at higher levels as the horse develops more strength and collection. With strength & collection the centre of balance changes and the shoulders become far lighter as the horse brings his hocks under him more.

Correctly on the bit the horse is working through from behind, over a soft , supple back with his neck stretched over the top of the bit. Think stretch the neck till the ears are over the bit, rather than the bit/nose needs to come in.

It's used as a reward for good work and if you look in your dressage test sheets, free walk on a long rein usually has a co-efficient mark - doubling the mark awarded. Long & low is an important part of all schooling.

Exactly this, far more eloquently put than I could manage!

 

[amage]

It's apparent that most people on this thread have never had a youngster/ horse that lacked topline.

The only way to build muscle on the back is to get the horse to use it. Working long and low builds back muscle very well as it makes them use there back and lunging like this encourages long and low.

In the pictures with the bay horse (sorry forgot your name) you can see the way the back is lifting up and the horse is actually using themselve.

here here well said!

 

[kerilli]

I'm not defending the Harbridge here, because I don't particularly like it as the horse doesn't have the freedom to put it's head up, hence why it's used as a tool to keep them long and low. However it does work in exactly the same manner, ie the reins come from between the front legs, so the head is not tied to one side like draw reins.

Erm, no, it doesn't. If I understand the Harbridge right (have looked at a picture) it is basically two side reins parallel, running from lowest part of girth independently to each bit ring? that's what it looks like to me.
If so, if the horse, going on the left rein, brings his head & neck, say, inwards, the left part of the harbridge will go baggy and the right part will pull.

with the above arrangement with the draw reins as a sliding loop, the reins will slide and automatically give on the 'outside' and take on the 'inside', mimicking a good pair of hands, keeping the 'contact' (such as it is) even.

if i've misread the picture of the harbridge, i apologise.

the lungee-bungee as used by the Fredericks is a bit like the harbridge but more even iirc, it has a loop that the piece that clips to the bit rings slides through, so it maintains an even contact on each when the horse bends laterally. i don't own one but i think i can see its merits, esp compared to harbridge for riding in, or draw reins for riding in.

 

[Rouletterose]

It's apparent that most people on this thread have never had a youngster/ horse that lacked topline.

The only way to build muscle on the back is to get the horse to use it. Working long and low builds back muscle very well as it makes them use there back and lunging like this encourages long and low.

In the pictures with the bay horse (sorry forgot your name) you can see the way the back is lifting up and the horse is actually using themselve.

This thread is not about the virtues of working the horse long and low, over the back and building topline. it's about using 'extra' gadgets, reins attached to the bit and keeping the horse TOO LOW because if the horse brings it's head up a little it will get a jab in the mouth.

I have produced all my own youngsters for over 40 years and to a good level, how many have you done? and have you even left school yet? talk about rude, why do you assume most of the people on this thread have not brought on youngsters? Do you believe that the only way to produce topline is to lunge the horse tied down with head between it's knees?

As kerilli has said she attaches to the cavesson and so did we with all of ours, we never lunged youngsters off the bit.

 

[Caledonia]

Erm, no, it doesn't. If I understand the Harbridge right (have looked at a picture) it is basically two side reins parallel, running from lowest part of girth independently to each bit ring? that's what it looks like to me.
If so, if the horse, going on the left rein, brings his head & neck, say, inwards, the left part of the harbridge will go baggy and the right part will pull.

with the above arrangement with the draw reins as a sliding loop, the reins will slide and automatically give on the 'outside' and take on the 'inside', mimicking a good pair of hands, keeping the 'contact' (such as it is) even.

if i've misread the picture of the harbridge, i apologise.

Yup, I think you have misread it, unless I've misunderstood you in relation to what you mean by the running reins being more of a sliding loop.
If they are, that must mean that the knot moves continually sideways across the horse's back as the horse turns his head? Is that the case?
Otherwise, the point of pressure is, as with the Harbridge, only a downward pull.

I don't like Harbridge much, as I said - but it's useful for strong or difficult horses.

 

[Maia]

This thread is not about the virtues of working the horse long and low, over the back and building topline. it's about using 'extra' gadgets, reins attached to the bit and keeping the horse TOO LOW because if the horse brings it's head up a little it will get a jab in the mouth.

I would completely agree that using any gadget which jabs the horse in the mouth if it raises its head above its knees is wrong. I would also agree that, particulary with the second set of pics posted with the rope clipped to the bit the horse is being pulled into a false outline and does appear to be in a position where it would get jabbed in the mouth because the rein is too tight. I personally think that fixing anything to a bit besides a riders hands is asking for a false contact and really the only thing that will teach this is correct riding.

However I also agree with Kerilli, among others, that certain 'gadgets' can be used to teach the horse a different way of going and this method, used correctly with a long enough length of rein going to the nose, not the bit, can help build correct muscles and enable the horse to work and develop in a way which long and low promotes - I think that has been discussed sufficiently on here for me not to repeat it. And I think that while that this is not why this thread was started, one of the reasons it has been discussed is because someone asked the question, nothing wrong with that surely?

In the final set of pics posted (with the video) I would agree that the horse in the video is not working ideally but the poster has explained that she/he recognises that and it was posted to show how a horse can jink about without firstly falling over the reins or secondly being ultra restricted - you can quite clearly see that the horse can lift its head up and out despite the reins when it wants to! I think the that this poster's pics do show therefore that the horse actually has a great deal of freedom with where it places its head *if the reins are long enough* and especially compared to a pessoa, side reins, chambon etc. and in these pictures the horse is stretching forwards and down and is infront of the vertical. While perhaps not as developed and through as it could be you can also see the horse is using its back end to step through and is lifting over its back, supporting the principles and outcomes of long and low. To me it does NOT look like the horse is being made to work too low, more that it is choosing too and there definately appears to be enough rein that as the horse becomes more engaged and established it will have the freedom to pick itself up a little more, at which point the rider could re-assess rein length (if there is enough) or if indeed something else may be more beneficial but for the moment it looks spot on.

So what am I trying to say?? I think most people have raised very valid points, the main one being that anything used incorrectly is not very effective nor a sensible choice. However used in a way which allows freedom and does not offer a contact on the mouth but helps direct a horse to work in a certain way then I think it definitely has its benefits which may well work very well for some horses and their handlers.

An interesting thread I think.

 

[amage]

it's about using 'extra' gadgets, reins attached to the bit and keeping the horse TOO LOW because if the horse brings it's head up a little it will get a jab in the mouth.

But that is the whole point....their head is NOT kept too low and if anyone's horse is restricted to keeping their head too low then they are not doing it correctly!

 

[gunnergundog]

It's apparent that most people on this thread have never had a youngster/ horse that lacked topline.

The only way to build muscle on the back is to get the horse to use it. Working long and low builds back muscle very well as it makes them use there back and lunging like this encourages long and low.

In the pictures with the bay horse (sorry forgot your name) you can see the way the back is lifting up and the horse is actually using themselve.

Excuse me! I think you are making assumptions here rather than drawing logical conclusions.

Ditto everything that Rouletterose said to you in response to the above. The BEST way to get a young underdeveloped horse to build muslce is NOT on the lunge; it is utilising hillwork either with an appropriate lightweight jockey on top or in long reins.

 

[Tnavas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerilli
i've never used a harbridge but surely with that if the horse turns its head and neck the reins stay the same length (so, pulling at the outside bit ring),

Rather than pulling the outside rein maintains a contact. In trot where there is no head movement there will not be any pull on the mouth.

Side reins should not have elastic - teaches the horse to lean, or rubber rings - they are too heavy and bounce on the bit - replicating the rider fiddling with the reins.

Inside rein should never be shortened = the goal is to work the horse from the inside leg (whip) into the outside hand (outside rein). Outside hand remains still while maintaining the contact.
When the horse is correctly between hand and leg the inside rein can be completely dropped without change in the frame of the horse.

 

[nikkimariet]

The BEST way to get a young underdeveloped horse to build muslce is NOT on the lunge; it is utilising hillwork either with an appropriate lightweight jockey on top or in long reins.

I think you're making assumptions too....

Not all young horses will like a, lunging and b, the method in question.

Similarly, not all young horses will build muscle in the *best* way by what you have suggested.

I know of someone with a flighty youngster who due to injury cannot be lunged, doesn't like drawn reins and is a nutter on hacks and long reining would serve no benefit to the horse or rider I am using as an example. So that sort of rules out your *best* ways to build topline on a youngster. Sorry, but you can't have a go at someone for making an assumptions when you're doing exactly the same thing.