Draw reins... Who uses them and why?

[millitiger]

Millitiger, regarding BD legal tack and bits:

I do have a problem with some of it such as flash nosebands, and the fact that curb bits are allowed but yet bitless is not. IME you can get a horse working every bit as correctly in a hackamore or other bitless as with a bit. In fact the conformation of some horse's mouths is such that they will never be 100% comfortabe in a bit. This is why I doslike strapping their mouths shut with flashes.

However, it is perfectly possible to be okay with the use of some gadgets but not others. You are absolutely right in that all tack and bits COULD be considered gadgets and so I should be more specific with my statements, but that would get very long and tedious!

I actually disagree with the BD bitting list as it excludes some very mild bits (and also bitless) and from your other posts I was surprised you see no BD legal bit as an aid or possible gadget.

So which ridden gadgets are you ok with then? This post is already long and maybe tedious for others so why stop now?

 

[Wagtail]

And I mentioned this bit in response to you being tempted to put draw reins on a big, spooky horse you have in the yard- imo, that is missing the point of draw reins for schooling and going over into using them for safety.

For me, there is a clear difference between draw reins for safety and draw reins for schooling- the same as any other aid.

I might have to give a horse on the road a really strong pull at a junction if there are cars coming and the horse is intent on carrying on walking.
I would not use the same amount of rein pressure at all in schooling to try and teach the horse anything.
Same aid but being used totally differently, once for safety and a last measure and once for finesse and schooling.

Completely understand what you are saying here.

Is that not a gadget for safety though rather than schooling?
And you are braver than me getting people to jump in side reins, however loose they are!

I am not talking about a course of proper jumps, just small cross poles. My mare who was used to jumping Newcomers barely bothered to lift herself off the ground.

And what is the difference between side reins when ridden and draw reins when ridden apart from the side reins are static and cannot be released by the rider?
Is your issue with draw reins actually the rider themselves and you don't trust any rider not to know when to release the pressure from the rein? Otherwise I don't see the difference between side reins and draw reins in giving the horse parameters to work in.

I have said that using draw reins for safety is not an issue for me. I would not have given my small boys a set of draw reins to use on my mare however, for obvious reasons. The side reins were there to stop her putting her head down to eat and I gave it as an example of the kind of exceptions I would make for the use of gadgets ridden.

I'd actually asked about your use of other gadgets in response to the above quote and would still be interested to know what other ridden gadgets you are happy to use (or happy for others to use) and what issues you use them for and how you see that as different to draw reins?

I have used running martingales for jumping and cross country where a horse is excitable and is liable to get its head up too high and not concentrate on the jump. So long as they are not fitted too tight and short then I don't see a problem with them. Difference being that they cannot be increasingly tightened as the rider rides so that the horse becomes over bent and they do not interfere with the horse's ability to bascule and stretch over the jump. I would not use a running martingale for flat work schooling.

I can't think of any other gadget I have/would use, but if you have any specific ones you want to ask about then feel free.

Any horse can be forced to perform clean transitions with 'normal' reins as much as with draw reins if you apply force.

Yes, but you would have to be a bad rider to force a horse to do something that it is not physically or mentally able to do. When you apply draw reins, this is removed from you as you do not feel the horse's struggles the same.

Why do you think draw reins stop the rider being able to feel what is going on throughout the horses body?

I know what it feels like to ride in draw reins. The horse is not so free with its body. I cannot imagine how anyone who feels the horse as I do could not appreciate the deadness that draw reins bring to riding.

Draw reins do not impact on your seat or legs or feel (assuming you use them correctly and I think for this debate to be relevant we should assume they are being used correctly otherwise we could argue a simple snaffle bridle can cause muscle pain and incorrect schooling if used in the wrong way).

Actually, you have made me realise another situation in which draw reins could IMO be useful. That is where a person needs to really concentrate on improving their seat, without having to 'fight' with their horse. Presuming their horse is being rather difficult (for whatever reason), and assuming the horse is physically capable of working that way.

 

[Wagtail]

I actually disagree with the BD bitting list as it excludes some very mild bits (and also bitless) and from your other posts I was surprised you see no BD legal bit as an aid or possible gadget.

So which ridden gadgets are you ok with then? This post is already long and maybe tedious for others so why stop now?

I think that anything could be classed as a gadget if the term was applied to the letter. Therefore we have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Goldenstar]

All tack is gadgets it's just that simple, a weak back horsed opening it mouth raising it head in a simple snaffle and running forward can do untold damage to its self if it's rider is not experianced balanced and trained to to train.
Bitless bridles can be the work of the devil if they don't suit the horse and are not well used the list is almost endless .
Standing martingales used well in the right situation can be a extremely useful thing especially when riding away baby's .
I could go on and on the knack is to use the right thing at the time and in the right way .
To single out the draw rein is silly as trainers many of us will have pet hates mine is the use of the Pessoa which I could though in great technical detail why I think it's counterproductive but i wont and I also dislike the use of strong poll pressure on the lunge although I accept the bungee rein will help many horses to lunge so do use if I think it will help.
You can go on and on with this for ever.

 

[Wagtail]

The following is a quote from Jessica Jahiel and can be found here www.horse-sense.org. It more or less sums up my feelings on the subject and also says a bit about side reins too.

1.There is no situation in which I would recommend using draw reins.
2.I don't think that there IS a correct use, that is, a use that is compatible with correct, systematic, progressive training. The only acceptable - and I mean MARGINALLY acceptable - use correct use of draw reins is completely hypothetical. It would be the brief (no more than a few minutes) deployment of draw reins on a sound, comfortable, sensible but poorly-trained horse, after a full warm-up, by an extremely light-handed rider, to show the horse that it COULD carry its head and neck in a different position than the one it habitually adopted. The draw reins would be used in this way for no more than a few minutes, and then removed. This would be repeated on the following day, and again on the following day - after which the draw reins would be put back into the "useless equipment" box for the NEXT fifty years or more. ;-)
I say that this is completely hypothetical, because I have never yet met a truly good rider or trainer who used draw reins, ever, for any purpose, and I have never yet met any horse that could not be taught what the rider wanted WITHOUT the use of additional force and leverage. On the other hand, I have met hundreds of riders and trainers who use draw reins in an attempt to substitute force for understanding, or as an attempt to achieve a "look" that needs to be acquired by the actual development of the horse's body and understanding, or as a way to dominate a horse they believe to be "challenging them". I do not agree with or accept any of this, and I can honestly say that I've never seen a situation in which a horse was HELPED by draw reins (although I've seen thousands of instances of horses being harmed by them). The example of possible acceptable use that I've given above is not something you are likely to see, because any rider/trainer who could meet the above conditions would also be entirely capable of achieving his or her goal correctly and without force, and so would not have any reason to put on a set of draw reins.



3.Some people believe that it's the horse's job to submit to the rider's demands, no matter how inept the rider, and no matter how physically impossible a particular demand may be for a horse to meet. Draw reins are popular with those humans who get a thrill out of domination.
Some people are lazy, and although they want their horse to look like a highly-trained, upper-level horse, they are unwilling to put in the necessary work to develop the animal's body and mind. They see draw reins as a way to achieve the "look" they want, without understanding that although they can force the horse's head down and pull its neck into a tight curve, they haven't achieved anything useful, and the "look" they create won't fool a real horseman, or a horse, for a single second.

Some people are simply uneducated, and allow themselves to be fooled by fast-talking, self-styled "trainers" who promote the use of such gadgetry. Others lack an understanding of leverage, and imagine that adding draw reins and/or a more severe bit allows them to be "lighter" or "softer" with their hands! They truly don't understand that all this does is allow them to cause a much larger amount of pain to the horse with much less effort.



4.People who are dependent on draw reins stay that way for a number of reasons. Some feel that this is the only way they have "control" over their horses, and are unwilling to allow a horse more freedom with its head and neck in case it does something they might not be able to handle. It's also very difficult for people - in any context, not just draw reins, and not just riding - to face up to the fact that they've been badly taught and have learned to do something the wrong way, and it's even more difficult for people in that situation to resolve to stop doing whatever it is the wrong way and start doing it the right way. And if they've been badly taught, they probably don't have any idea of how to start over. If they do have an idea of what's involved in starting over, they may be daunted by the amount of work and time it will take... there are a lot of reasons that people cling to their gadgets.


5.A horse that has been worked in draw reins for a long time is probably extremely sore, if not actually lame, and will require a great deal of remedial work before it can be put back on a more reasonable training "track". A good trainer can take one look at a horse and tell you whether it's been worked in draw reins - the horse's musculature develops incorrectly through the neck and back. It takes a long time, a lot of slow, patient, correct work, and usually quite a lot of help from trigger-point massage and passive stretching before such a horse can be helped back to a point from which correct training will ALLOW it to develop properly. I've worked with horses like this and found 50 or more trigger-points in their necks alone - each one of which requires attention and regular massage over a period of months, before the horse can be put into proper work. Fortunately, some good-hearted, patient riders are willing to learn the skills and put in the time and effort necessary to salvage their horses. It takes infinite patience, and can be heartbreaking, to spend months coaxing a horse to begin to uncurl its neck, use its back and hindquarters again, and develop the ability to reach toward the bit. It's even more heartbreaking to reach this point at last, only to realize that the long-term effect of the draw reins damaged not only the horse's mind and jaw and neck and back, but its hocks as well, and that it will never be really sound again.


6.Side reins are almost as abused as draw reins; the difference is that side reins can actually serve a useful purpose if used correctly. Side reins, loosely adjusted, can help a horse learn to move forward whilst accepting light contact from the bit, but again, they must be used correctly - at a trot ONLY, because the horse's head and neck remain steady at that gait, not at walk or at canter, when a horse in training will need to make balancing gestures with its head and neck. Too-loose, flapping side reins will only annoy the horse; too-tight side reins will restrict the horse's head and neck movement, and set the horse up for lameness by causing tension in the horse's jaw, neck, and back.
In an advanced horse, working correctly at the upper levels of dressage, side reins can also be used at canter, because the horse at that level has learned to use its entire body and back, which makes large balancing gestures unnecessary, and so minimizes the movement of its head and neck. But side reins can only be used to confirm collection - NEVER to create it!
Although side reins can be used in ways that don't cause harm - you can teach a young horse to trot confidently, in balance on the longeline, in contact with the bit, without the weight of a rider - they are usually NOT correctly used or even correctly adjusted. Both side reins and draw reins create a great deal of work for equine chiropractors and massage therapists. If you want to use side reins, familiarize yourself with their correct use and adjustment, be SURE that you know how to longe really well (take lessons!), and use sliding sidereins - either the Lauffer reins or the so-called Vienna-style (the former are attached at two points on the surcingle, the latter are attached to the girth and the surcingle.

I'm glad that you don't use draw reins. You are right on both counts - they have no place in dressage, and you probably don't have the experience and education to use them. Over the years, if you meet and work with enough truly good trainers, you will probably find, as I did, that those few individuals who DO have enough experience and education to be able to use draw reins without causing harm to the horse NEVER USE DRAW REINS AT ALL. In fact, they tend to regard draw reins with the same horror that they would regard a bit with a razor-blade mouthpiece!

There's never a "right" time for draw reins, because if you're so good at riding and training that you can use them in a helpful way, you know many better, more legitimate and productive and effective ways of helping the horse, and if you aren't that good, you have no business using them at all. Interesting, isn't it? ;-)

 

[millitiger]

I am not talking about a course of proper jumps, just small cross poles. My mare who was used to jumping Newcomers barely bothered to lift herself off the ground.

I was more thinking if she tripped or got on an awfully bad stride due to her novice rider and needed the full range of her head and neck to save herself and her jockey.
Absolutely nothing to do with her scope or experience.

I have said that using draw reins for safety is not an issue for me. I would not have given my small boys a set of draw reins to use on my mare however, for obvious reasons. The side reins were there to stop her putting her head down to eat and I gave it as an example of the kind of exceptions I would make for the use of gadgets ridden.

Not sure I suggested giving them draw reins at any point but thanks for clarifying.
And as my point was about you using gadgets to solve issues I presumed you would give an example where there was an issue to be solved, rather than using it as a seatbelt 'just in case.'

I have used running martingales for jumping and cross country where a horse is excitable and is liable to get its head up too high and not concentrate on the jump. So long as they are not fitted too tight and short then I don't see a problem with them. Difference being that they cannot be increasingly tightened as the rider rides so that the horse becomes over bent and they do not interfere with the horse's ability to bascule and stretch over the jump. I would not use a running martingale for flat work schooling.

So again, your issue with draw reins is the rider not the reins themselves?
Your caveat of 'not fitted too tight or too short' could equally apply to draw reins, it just requires a rider who is aware of rein length.

I'll ignore the fact that a running martingale acts by jabbing the horse in the mouth and you are happy to use that but not happy to use a flash as you don't agree with strapping their mouth shut...

Yes, but you would have to be a bad rider to force a horse to do something that it is not physically or mentally able to do. When you apply draw reins, this is removed from you as you do not feel the horse's struggles the same.

And you would have to be an equally bad rider to force a horse with draw reins surely? As long as the draw reins are not overtightened you can still feel a horse struggle.

I know what it feels like to ride in draw reins. The horse is not so free with its body. I cannot imagine how anyone who feels the horse as I do could not appreciate the deadness that draw reins bring to riding.

Have you schooled in draw reins though? Or just used them as a safety net?
I've not had a dead feeling from draw reins yet but I do know the feeling you mean, when it feels like the bridle is hung up on a hook rather than on a live animal- I get that feeling down the reins from Myler bits actually

The same as cptrayes was petty to bring up the 'my horse is naughtier than yours' argument, I think it is pretty poor to get into a 'my feel is better than yours' as well. [/QUOTE]

 

[millitiger]

All tack is gadgets it's just that simple, a weak back horsed opening it mouth raising it head in a simple snaffle and running forward can do untold damage to its self if it's rider is not experianced balanced and trained to to train.
Bitless bridles can be the work of the devil if they don't suit the horse and are not well used the list is almost endless .
Standing martingales used well in the right situation can be a extremely useful thing especially when riding away baby's .
I could go on and on the knack is to use the right thing at the time and in the right way .
To single out the draw rein is silly as trainers many of us will have pet hates mine is the use of the Pessoa which I could though in great technical detail why I think it's counterproductive but i wont and I also dislike the use of strong poll pressure on the lunge although I accept the bungee rein will help many horses to lunge so do use if I think it will help.
You can go on and on with this for ever.

I so agree with every word of this post

 

[millitiger]

Wagtail, so now we are all bad riders as no truly good rider has ever used draw reins for any reason? As you have used them yourself you can never be a good rider, really?

She also says side reins should only be used at trot, never at canter (and therefore certainly not to jump!) and not too loose otherwise they annoy the horse- isn't this exactly what you did with your horse?

So odd that you agree wholeheartedly with someone who is against what you practice, hypothetically agrees with using draw reins for short periods to show a horse how to work and thnks that anyone who has ever used draw reins is a bad rider?

Couldn't we continue to debate or let the thread fall down the pages gracefully rather than resorting to quoting irrelevant text from other websites?

 

[Wagtail]

I was more thinking if she tripped or got on an awfully bad stride due to her novice rider and needed the full range of her head and neck to save herself and her jockey.
Absolutely nothing to do with her scope or experience.

As I say, they were really loose and would not have prevented her from recovering. No way would she have tripped in the well levelled surface, and if she did the she could just as easily trodden on her reins! I think this is getting a little far fetched now.

Not sure I suggested giving them draw reins at any point but thanks for clarifying.
And as my point was about you using gadgets to solve issues I presumed you would give an example where there was an issue to be solved, rather than using it as a seatbelt 'just in case.'

In that case, no, I have never used one to solve a training issue.

So again, your issue with draw reins is the rider not the reins themselves?
Your caveat of 'not fitted too tight or too short' could equally apply to draw reins, it just requires a rider who is aware of rein length.

I'll ignore the fact that a running martingale acts by jabbing the horse in the mouth and you are happy to use that but not happy to use a flash as you don't agree with strapping their mouth shut...

No, my issue is not only with incorrect use, but with the fact that they are completely unnecessary within a correct training programme. And running martingales cannot possibly jab a horse in the mouth. Only a person with bad hands can do that.

And you would have to be an equally bad rider to force a horse with draw reins surely? As long as the draw reins are not overtightened you can still feel a horse struggle.

I don't think we can ever agree on this. If you are holding the draw reins so as to prevent the horse from throwing up its head then much of the force and feel is taken up by the anchor where the rein is attached to the girth. The feel cannot possibly be the same. It is very muted.

Have you schooled in draw reins though? Or just used them as a safety net?
I've not had a dead feeling from draw reins yet but I do know the feeling you mean, when it feels like the bridle is hung up on a hook rather than on a live animal- I get that feeling down the reins from Myler bits actually

Yes, I used to school in draw reins. The last time I used them was 7 years ago.

The same as cptrayes was petty to bring up the 'my horse is naughtier than yours' argument, I think it is pretty poor to get into a 'my feel is better than yours' as well.

That was not my intention. I was simply saying that is the way I 'feel' the horse. I like to feel it with all freedom to move. Strapping draw reins on it dulls this feeling for me.

 

[kirstykate]

^^^^^

This exactly, even a head collar and a lead rope in the wrong hands is fatal.

 

[Wagtail]

Wagtail, so now we are all bad riders as no truly good rider has ever used draw reins for any reason? As you have used them yourself you can never be a good rider, really?

She also says side reins should only be used at trot, never at canter (and therefore certainly not to jump!) and not too loose otherwise they annoy the horse- isn't this exactly what you did with your horse?

So odd that you agree wholeheartedly with someone who is against what you practice, hypothetically agrees with using draw reins for short periods to show a horse how to work and thnks that anyone who has ever used draw reins is a bad rider?

Couldn't we continue to debate or let the thread fall down the pages gracefully rather than resorting to quoting irrelevant text from other websites?

She says that use of side reins on a well schooled horse is fine in canter. My horse was schooling at advanced medium level at the time. Also, I said 'more or less' , not 'entirely'.

 

[millitiger]

No, my issue is not only with incorrect use, but with the fact that they are completely unnecessary within a correct training programme. And running martingales cannot possibly jab a horse in the mouth. Only a person with bad hands can do that.

Seriously?

What do you think the action of a running martingale is, how do you think it works?

 

[Wagtail]

Why is the text I quoted irrelevant?

 

[millitiger]

It's irrelevant because you don't agree with it all so how can we possibly debate it when you then decide you don't agree with the part I've picked up on?

And btw, your mare may have been schooling at AdM level, but I doubt she was working at that level with a 7yro child on board?
So the rest of the author's sentence for using them in canter has been disregarded to fit with what you want it to read.

 

[Wagtail]

Seriously?

What do you think the action of a running martingale is, how do you think it works?

Jabbing is a quick sharp movement. If a rider has a correct feel on the rein this is impossible, because the hand will follow the movement and then take back the rein without jabbing. If a martingale is fitted correctly it simply angles the rein downwards. It is not a jabbing action. Just as draw reins are not jabbing.

 

[millitiger]

Jabbing is a quick sharp movement. If a rider has a correct feel on the rein this is impossible. If a martingale is fitted correctly it simply angles the rein downwards. It is not a jabbing action. Just as draw reins are not jabbing.

So you don't think a running martingale can jab a horse if it violently flings it's head skywards?

Or if it drops behind the contact for a split second and then throws it's head backwards towards the rider? Of course it will be jabbed by the martingale.

As you say jabbing is a quick, sharp movement- so if the horse makes a quick, sharp movement upwards with its head, the leather strap attached to its chest will quickly get to its maximum reach and will result in a quick, sharp movement on the rein, hence the horse can be jabbed in the mouth.

 

[Wagtail]

It's irrelevant because you don't agree with it all so how can we possibly debate it when you then decide you don't agree with the part I've picked up on?

And btw, your mare may have been schooling at AdM level, but I doubt she was working at that level with a 7yro child on board?
So the rest of the author's sentence for using them in canter has been disregarded to fit with what you want it to read.

Working at advanced medium level means a horse that is completely able to hold and balance itself in the absence of any training aids. Therefore side reins are not detrimental to their training in canter.

 

[kirstykate]

We use them to round horses back, engage hock and lighten front end but most people use them just to drop a horses head.

 

[millitiger]

Working at advanced medium level means a horse that is completely able to hold and balance itself in the absence of any training aids. Therefore side reins are not detrimental to their training in canter.

Of course an AdM horse can carry itself without training aids, who said it couldn't? It might need a competent rider to stay in that outline and with that power and elevation though?

If you want to kid yourself that your horse kept itself in an AdM outline when being jumped by 2 x novice children, ok then.

 

[Wagtail]

Of course an AdM horse can carry itself without training aids, who said it couldn't? It might need a competent rider to stay in that outline and with that power and elevation though?

If you want to kid yourself that your horse kept itself in an AdM outline when being jumped by 2 x novice children, ok then.

I don't think you are reading the quotation correctly, Millitiger. She says they are fine to use in canter on a horse that is at that level of training, not that they have to actually be working in an advanced outline or be ridden by an advanced rider. I also think that this thread is becoming unnecesarily pedantic on both sides and so I will bow out until/if the thread takes a more useful direction.

But thank you for remaining both calm and for not resorting to bitchiness. I have enjoyed most of our discussion.

 

[Wagtail]

We use them to round horses back, engage hock and lighten front end but most people use them just to drop a horses head.

Are you not wanting to do this without them though?

 

[kirstykate]

Its how we start them off, then they dont know any different it makes life alot easier and quicker and there is far less arguments along the way

 

[Wagtail]

Its how we start them off, then they dont know any different it makes life alot easier and quicker and there is far less arguments along the way

I understand what you are saying from the rider's perspective, but are you saying you put a newly backed horse in draw reins?

 

[kirstykate]

Once we know there will be no funny business, yes we do, we use them as part of a round house, whilst we are loosing/lunging the youngsters as well.

 

[cptrayes]

I know what it feels like to ride in draw reins. The horse is not so free with its body. I cannot imagine how anyone who feels the horse as I do could not appreciate the deadness that draw reins bring to riding.

Most of my feel of what the horse is doing is from my seat and my body, just as most of my instructions to it are. Draw reins do not diminish body feel in the slightest. Used the way I use them, they do not diminish feel from the hand either.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Tina fletcher did a great demo at blue chip about using draw reins to improve the show jumper. She also jumped a x poles with placing poles to explain how this can improve the technique of the horse. She then took them off and there was a difference and it lasted throughout the length of the demo. I use draw reins at home in the same way (not on all horses) and I often see people warming up in them at shows, especially in the bigger classes/shows

 

[cptrayes]

Blimey, Cptrayes, you really do have an incredibly high opinion of your abilities, to state that no one could have done what you have done or ridden the same types of horses as you have without draw reins.

Yup, almost as high as yours in believing that there is no horse in the world that cannot more effectively, quickly and/or humanely be trained with short periods in draw reins than by your methods

You are twisting my words again. I did not say it could not be done, I said that with some temperamental horses it could not be done any more effectively or quickly or humanely. There are plenty of ways to do it and draw reins is one in the armoury. Just as lots of people break horses without ever using a Pessoa, there is more than one way to skin the cat.

But I do find it concerning that you are so ready to presume that horses are just being difficult because they are naughty.

I have never said that because it would be stupid. By attributing that to me you are accusing me of not knowing when a horse is or is not in physical as opposed to mental difficulty.

 

[cptrayes]

Tina fletcher did a great demo at blue chip about using draw reins to improve the show jumper. She also jumped a x poles with placing poles to explain how this can improve the technique of the horse. She then took them off and there was a difference and it lasted throughout the length of the demo. I use draw reins at home in the same way (not on all horses) and I often see people warming up in them at shows, especially in the bigger classes/shows

I believe that most showjumpers use them and always have. Which gives the lie to the assertion that it stops a horse working properly through its back, since they jump such huge obstacles after training in them. Clearly their backs are working fine.

 

[kirstykate]

I believe that most showjumpers use them and always have. Which gives the lie to the assertion that it stops a horse working properly through its back, since they jump such huge obstacles after training in them. Clearly their backs are working fine.

Which exactly why they use them, OH has to show jumped and produces to a high level and its a piece of equipment he wont be with out.