Draw reins

[emmarachaelp]

Ok so I have a 5yo mare and she doesn't go in an outline yet. I've only had her for three months and she has improved but she only ever goes into an outline for five minutes at the end of a session (in little chunks - not consistently). Her neck muscle has also improved since I first got her and I am using bungee reins but they're not much help and she still isn't going round. I think she'd work a lot nicer and feel a lot better if she was carrying herself.

I've done a lot of research on draw reins but no one really asked questions I need answers to so I'd appreciate any answers to the following:

1 - how can you use them 'wrong'?
2 - what damage is caused if you don't use them properly?
3 - do you need to have soft hands to use them?
4 - do you use them every time you ride for a full session or just at the beginning/end of a session?
5 - do you have to use them with a snaffle only? can you use them with a loose ring waterford?

thank you in advance

 

[DirectorFury]

The fact that you have to ask (and are, I suspect, planning to use them with a Waterford!) should be a very clear indication that these aren't the gadget for you.

It takes a loooong time for a horse to build the musculature to hold a 'frame' (ugh) and forcing the front end in isn't going to help your horse at all.

Please find a good classical (or just common sense) instructor who can teach you to work a horse from back to front, rather than focusing purely on where the head is. Get the hind end and you'll have the 'frame' (ugh) you want.

 

[emmarachaelp]

I wasn't planning to use them with a Waterford, I was asking if you could or not because I ride her in one atm and she leans in a snaffle - so I obviously can't use them now.

I lunge her in a pessoa and was planning to use the draw reins to help develop the muscle in her neck so she finds it easier, not pin her head down.

 

[be positive]

Starting at question 5, the fact you may be using a waterford on your young horse may be contributing to why you are having issues with her taking and maintaining a proper contact.

Now back to the beginning, she is still young and probably weak so will not be ready to maintain a consistent way of going yet, you seem to be focused on her front end rather than the whole horse, roundness as you want comes from the backend, the engine, working properly so she can carry herself and ultimately become round, it takes time, a lot of correct work, a good feel and experience to get a young horse going well.

Draw reins have their place but to use them as it seems you want to is how they can be used in the wrong way, Q1 to use them to fix the front end as a short cut.
Q2 they just bring the front into a false outline which can then take a very long while to undo once the rider realises there is a problem.
Q3 to use the correctly the rider needs very soft hands, a very good feel and above all the experience to know when and how they are affecting the way the horse is working.
Q4 I rarely use them for schooling, in fact I cannot remember when I last used mine but I do use them for hacking a tricky horse, they are used as running not draw reins and are loose on his neck as an emergency measure in case I need them, so I cannot answer your question other than to say I think you would be best to find a good trainer to help you, it may be that a couple of sessions will help you get your horse going better without resorting to short cuts that you are not going to find helpful long term, I would also look at putting something in her mouth that encourages her to take a contact rather than a bit that discourages it, assuming she is in a waterford.

 

[emmarachaelp]

I think you would be best to find a good trainer to help you, it may be that a couple of sessions will help you get your horse going better without resorting to short cuts that you are not going to find helpful long term, I would also look at putting something in her mouth that encourages her to take a contact rather than a bit that discourages it, assuming she is in a waterford.

I already have a trainer, who suggested to put her in a Waterford because she used to lean and fight with me and it was difficult to get anything done. She has improved loads since having that bit in.

Edit: what bit would you recommend to encourage her to take a contact?

 

[be positive]

I already have a trainer, who suggested to put her in a Waterford because she used to lean and fight with me and it was difficult to get anything done. She has improved loads since having that bit in.

Edit: what bit would you recommend to encourage her to take a contact?

I think they are not the nicest bits, ok for fast work if the horse leans but the idea is they collapse once you stop pulling so they are no real help for proper flatwork where you want the horse to seek and take a soft consistent contact, without seeing you it is hard to advise but remember it takes two to lean/ pull/fight.
I usually go milder rather than harsher if a horse is not happy and forget about what the front end is doing, they tend to settle once they are working correctly from behind and start to understand what is required but we all have different ways of dealing with problems I prefer to find a route that makes it easy for the horse to work with me than to stick a severe bit in and use gadgets, that is what training is about.

 

[emmarachaelp]

I read somewhere to switch back to a snaffle after a while and use the WF as a reminder if they start leaning etc again, so I may try her in the snaffle.

Do you think it would benefit her to use draw reins once a week for 10 minutes, and then take them off for the rest of the session and see if she works better?

 

[SusieT]

No - she needs worked up into the hand and if she is leaning she is probably on the forehand which draw reins will just encourage- get some good lessons with a adressage instructor. A 5 year old should be easily schooled , not needing lots of remedial aids.

 

[Regandal]

Your horse is only 5. She is not physically strong enough to maintain an 'outline' for any length of time. You may fare better with a classical instructor, who will show you how to work the horse to build the correct muscle.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

You would do far better to let go of your horse's mouth and ride from your seat and legs to encourage your young mare to work from behind. Until she has developed the muscles to bring her back legs under and use her top-line to support herself and her rider, she will not be able to work in an 'outline'. If your trainer encourages you to use your hands to get her to take a contact, I suggest you find a better, more knowledgeable trainer.

 

[emmarachaelp]

A 5 year old should be easily schooled

she turned 5 in April, came over from Ireland after being brought into work and hadn't done much when I got her at the beginning of July

 

[Barnacle]

You need a new trainer.

I would first of all put the horse in a French link bit. If you're finding it evades contact, you need something mild that also doesn't encourage lifting of the head.

Forget all the gadgets - ride forward on a loose rein to encourage self-carriage and stop the leaning. If the horse falls onto the forehand, do lots of circles using your inside leg to balance the horse while asking for the hind legs to step under. Lots of transitions using seat and leg and very little rein (on a loose rein) both between and within gaits. And start some lateral work (shoulder in for instance) to get the horse bending and engaging.

The head and neck will go to the right place entirely on their own once the back end is working - you don't need to pull them in/down and draw reins will not help the horse to use its back end - only pull the head down. If you think an "outline" is about the head and neck, you are going about things entirely the wrong way. First you need roundness, then you can ask for raising of the shoulders. The head/neck will do the right thing without you interfering.

 

[Pinkvboots]

You need a new trainer.

I would first of all put the horse in a French link bit. If you're finding it evades contact, you need something mild that also doesn't encourage lifting of the head.

Forget all the gadgets - ride forward on a loose rein to encourage self-carriage and stop the leaning. If the horse falls onto the forehand, do lots of circles using your inside leg to balance the horse while asking for the hind legs to step under. Lots of transitions using seat and leg and very little rein (on a loose rein) both between and within gaits. And start some lateral work (shoulder in for instance) to get the horse bending and engaging.

The head and neck will go to the right place entirely on their own once the back end is working - you don't need to pull them in/down and draw reins will not help the horse to use its back end - only pull the head down. If you think an "outline" is about the head and neck, you are going about things entirely the wrong way. First you need roundness, then you can ask for raising of the shoulders. The head/neck will do the right thing without you interfering.

Agree with this totally^^^^

 

[emmarachaelp]

thank you everyone!!
especially Barnacle for the exercises

 

[emmarachaelp]

I just wanted to also add that my instructor is doing a great job with me and my horse and she gave me lessons on the pony I used to ride, he was a complete different pony just after a few lessons. she isn't the one encouraging me to use draw reins, I was the one asking about them! she is the one that recommended a Pessoa, giving my horse a looser rein when doing flatwork and is the only reason my horse has improved this much

 

[shortstuff99]

Actually I don't massively agree with this, if you work on a loose rein all the energy you have created will just fall out the front door and be useless. The exercises will work but you need a contact for the horse to work into, not pulling with the hands but an elastic contact. Otherwise how is the horse supposed to know what to do? Also I never really agree with completely leave the front end alone, the neck is connected to the spine, without a loose neck you can't have a loose back. This does not mean pulling the head in it means working the horse from behind to the contact. I also believe a 5 year old should be able to maintain a beginning frame.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

You would do far better to let go of your horse's mouth and ride from your seat and legs to encourage your young mare to work from behind. Until she has developed the muscles to bring her back legs under and use her top-line to support herself and her rider, she will not be able to work in an 'outline'. If your trainer encourages you to use your hands to get her to take a contact, I suggest you find a better, more knowledgeable trainer.

This, some horses are not strong enough to "do" what you want of them , and you may have to wait ......... my boy could not offer canter on the lunge til he was six or seven. I had to give him a little feed from September to April and do lots of hill work and hacking, he found "work" too hard, and I changed to a hanging cheek half baucher to give better control and bring him on to contact.
I never even considered draw reins, which have their uses in a young strong well balanced type. Only a good rider should use them
If you want to try a different approach try long reining with an advanced instructor.
Get out and about, build up muscle on long hacks and with hill work, you are trying short cuts, and they don't always work.

 

[EQUIDAE]

If you ride from the seat into the hand eventually the horse will choose to work in an outline by themselves. It will also be a true outline rather than a false one. The key is the quality of the walk and trot - if it is a dawdling one the horse isn't using itself properly and you will never get a decent trot. As others said - the horse is young and weak and you need to build up muscles before you get anywhere.

I wouldn't recommend draw reins as you are likely just to pull the horse one the forehand and cause it to overbend - it doesn't look pretty and is no good for the horse.

On a positive - if your horse is offering it in the last 5 minutes then you have progress! Of course you are going to need to work the horse in for a bit first each time - you should find that this time becomes less and less each ride. I never ask for an outline of any horse for at least 5-10 minutes of my warmup as I find to ask sooner just doesn't give any quality as the horse isn't warmed up.

On a negative - any instructor that suggests putting a youngster in a waterford as the first option for leaning needs binning! To suggest a bit change suggests that the instructor is used to schooling 'ready made' horses and not teaching youngsters. I think you would benefit from finding an instructor who is experienced with youngsters and who can help both of you.

I had one lesson off a PSG instructor expecting wonders - she couldn't train me to train my horse and when she got on she couldn't ride one half of her. Some people teach because they are a good rider - this doesn't necessarily make them a good trainer...

I will post pics in a bit of my mare to show you the before and after - she was the ultimate in giraffe. She now works in a beautiful and uphill outline. This was achieved by nothing other than allowing her to build up the correct musclature using raised trotting poles. First loose and then under saddle.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Just thought of another exercise my instructor suggested - it's counter shoulder in. You are using the same aids for shoulder in but with the haunches moving off the track and she shoulders staying on (the opposite bend to travers). It helps a young horse as you can use the arena wall for support - shoulder in can be quite difficult for a youngster to grasp at first. If you teach the aids using the wall for support, eventually you can transfer it to true shoulder in.

Another thing to think about is that immediate reward of release. If you don't release instantly (but still keep asking), the horse hasn't learned he has done something correctly. This of it like this...

Teacher 'What day is it?'
Student 'Thursday'
Teacher 'What day is it?'
Student 'The 17th'
Teacher 'What day is it?'
Student 'The 17th September'
Teacher 'What day is it?'
Student 'WTF?'

If you keep asking the question without offering a reward, the horse will think they have offered the wrong answer and it will never click.

 

[AceAmara]

if you suspect she is working properly for 5 mins at the end of your sessions - Id say it is more likely she is tired and dropping behind/overbent and you are confusing this with a correct way of going.

 

[charlie76]

Actually I don't massively agree with this, if you work on a loose rein all the energy you have created will just fall out the front door and be useless. The exercises will work but you need a contact for the horse to work into, not pulling with the hands but an elastic contact. Otherwise how is the horse supposed to know what to do? Also I never really agree with completely leave the front end alone, the neck is connected to the spine, without a loose neck you can't have a loose back. This does not mean pulling the head in it means working the horse from behind to the contact. I also believe a 5 year old should be able to maintain a beginning frame.

Totally agree. No horse will work correctly from leg to hand if the reins are long and loose.
You need to have a contact to push them into.

 

[tallyho!]

Ok so I have a 5yo mare and she doesn't go in an outline yet. I've only had her for three months and she has improved but she only ever goes into an outline for five minutes at the end of a session (in little chunks - not consistently). Her neck muscle has also improved since I first got her and I am using bungee reins but they're not much help and she still isn't going round. I think she'd work a lot nicer and feel a lot better if she was carrying herself.

I've done a lot of research on draw reins but no one really asked questions I need answers to so I'd appreciate any answers to the following:

1 - how can you use them 'wrong'?
2 - what damage is caused if you don't use them properly?
3 - do you need to have soft hands to use them?
4 - do you use them every time you ride for a full session or just at the beginning/end of a session?
5 - do you have to use them with a snaffle only? can you use them with a loose ring waterford?

thank you in advance

she turned 5 in April, came over from Ireland after being brought into work and hadn't done much when I got her at the beginning of July

This July...

Not much work since started working... I would just work on strength and building some muscle. Go out hacking and do nothing more than that this year if I were you... do a bit in the school on circles and transitions.

 

[Speedyfluff]

Ditch the Waterford for a start. Her mouth will be totally ruined if you are trying to school her in one. They are for seriously strong horses that like to lean on the hand, not one that cannot maintain a correct outline. In fact, unless a horse's mouth is totally ruined, no horse would be able to work correctly in a Waterford. Very nasty bit and not one for a youngster. As for draw reins, these are not the way to teach your horse how to work correctly. They are a shortcut and to be used by experts only.

 

[oldie48]

I've never schooled a young horse and struggle like mad with my own, so I might be talking complete tosh, but surely the first thing the horse needs to find is it's balance? If you push the horse with your seat and legs into a loose rein, doesn't it just fall onto the forehand to try to balance itself? I've never used draw reins but I have bought horses that I suspect have been schooled in them (badly). They have tended to have a very fixed outline with little or no movement in the neck and head and frankly it's a real pain to re-school them as they have learned to fix their neck or clamp the bit to maintain their balance. It's very difficult to give help without seeing a horse moving as they are all so different and I don't think there's a one fix for all approach. Someone with a very forward going youngster is going to have a different problem than someone with a rather stuffy one. Get a good trainer who explains why they are taking a particular approach and you'll not only improve your horse you will also learn loads yourself.

 

[Embo]

In my lesson last night, my horse achieved a lovely elastic (if not yet consistent as we are both still learning) outline. What was so great about it? I was riding one handed!

As has been said again and again, outline does not come from the front. It comes from the back end! Yes, you do need a contact, but it is there to support the frame, not to create it. Get the horse stepping through from behind and using his back, the front end will go with it. Your hands and the contact are there to catch and support the energy created from behind. All proven by what I was doing last night.

No tricks, no gadgets. Just determination and a very good trainer!

 

[Dazed'n'confused]

I lunge her in a pessoa and was planning to use the draw reins to help develop the muscle in her neck so she finds it easier, not pin her head down.

I haven't read all the replies so apologies if this has already been pointed out....

It's not her neck muscles that enable her to work into a contact, it's her back muscles......

Forget the Pessoa, the draw reins & any other gadget that cuts corners, use raised walk/trot poles, allow her to go forward & teach her to go straight, only then will she be able to work to a contact. It takes time, there are no short cuts....

 

[emmarachaelp]

not one that cannot maintain a correct outline.

she's not in the Waterford because she doesn't go in an outline, she's in a Waterford because she used to lean, run away with me and chuck her head up and down constantly if I asked anything of her. we tried to work through it for a few lessons but it was difficult to do anything which is why we changed bits

 

[Speedyfluff]

she's not in the Waterford because she doesn't go in an outline, she's in a Waterford because she used to lean, run away with me and chuck her head up and down constantly if I asked anything of her. we tried to work through it for a few lessons but it was difficult to do anything which is why we changed bits

I'm now confused because you say:

Ok so I have a 5yo mare and she doesn't go in an outline yet.

 

[crabbymare]

she's not in the Waterford because she doesn't go in an outline, she's in a Waterford because she used to lean, run away with me and chuck her head up and down constantly if I asked anything of her. we tried to work through it for a few lessons but it was difficult to do anything which is why we changed bits

and that is a good reason not to have used a waterford. it sounds as if she was confused. unfit. unschooled probably had aching muscles and was finding the work too hard so its the time for you and your instructor to help the horse instead of adding to the reasons she is having difficulties

 

[emmarachaelp]

To suggest a bit change suggests that the instructor is used to schooling 'ready made' horses and not teaching youngsters

she breaks and produces young horses and they look great, none of her horses are ready made