Draw reins

emmarachaelp said:
Ok so I have a 5yo mare and she doesn't go in an outline yet. I've only had her for three months and she has improved but she only ever goes into an outline for five minutes at the end of a session (in little chunks - not consistently). Her neck muscle has also improved since I first got her and I am using bungee reins but they're not much help and she still isn't going round. I think she'd work a lot nicer and feel a lot better if she was carrying herself.

I've done a lot of research on draw reins but no one really asked questions I need answers to so I'd appreciate any answers to the following:

1 - how can you use them 'wrong'?
2 - what damage is caused if you don't use them properly?
3 - do you need to have soft hands to use them?
4 - do you use them every time you ride for a full session or just at the beginning/end of a session?
5 - do you have to use them with a snaffle only? can you use them with a loose ring waterford?

thank you in advance :o
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I have a 5 yo ID mare, who cannot hold herself yet not go iM an outline due to being aloud to hold her head up so far. I would never contemplate draw reins on her yet but working in the school to improve her balance first and ask her to come down rather being forced down into an incorrect position. If your dead set on it why not use one of these( sorry cannot post link on ipad) but elastic trainng aid for horses on ebay, much kinder and more natural than draw reins
 
HGA-12 said:
I have a 5 yo ID mare, who cannot hold herself yet not go iM an outline due to being aloud to hold her head up so far. I would never contemplate draw reins on her yet but working in the school to improve her balance first and ask her to come down rather being forced down into an incorrect position. If your dead set on it why not use one of these( sorry cannot post link on ipad) but elastic trainng aid for horses on ebay, much kinder and more natural than draw reins
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this is exactly what happened to mine, according to the vet. at the vetting he said she looked like she had been ridden round with her head in the air. I already have the bungee training reins but they weren't much help :(
 
HGA-12 said:
I have a 5 yo ID mare, who cannot hold herself yet not go iM an outline due to being aloud to hold her head up so far. I would never contemplate draw reins on her yet but working in the school to improve her balance first and ask her to come down rather being forced down into an incorrect position. If your dead set on it why not use one of these( sorry cannot post link on ipad) but elastic trainng aid for horses on ebay, much kinder and more natural than draw reins
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More natural? Why's that?
 
emmarachaelp said:
UPDATE

I'm on my phone so it's a pain to quote everyting I want to reply to but:

She was unfit when I got her and used to be exhausted after 15 minutes but her fitness is so much better now.

I just rode her in a snaffle and took the martingale off (because the loop that goes around the girth doesn't fit on my dressage one) and she didn't lean, throw her head around and she was so so calm (she's usually speedy at the beginning). She felt lovely.

Thank you everyone for your advice. I am definitely not going to use draw reins after everything you've all said as she will get there eventually! The right way!��
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Well done for taking on board what most people said.

If you look on you-tube there are videos of horses in absolute self-carriage either loose in the field, or being ridden without a bridle. They are stepping under with their hind legs and NO-ONE is holding them together with a 'contact'. Sorry but I can't remember the names to link to.
 
emmarachaelp said:
I think because they're not connected to your hands and they don't force the head down, they just encourage the horse. They're made out of elastic so they're kinder.
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Nothing "natural" about that. Look, you need to get a GOOD, educated trainer who can explain the principles of riding and training, perhaps even do a little with your very green young mare just to get her going on the right path for you. The way to train horses does not involve straps, gadgets, weird bits or pieces of elastic: it takes time and above all knowledge.

If your mare has only recently arrived from Ireland it is very likely she has had the most rudimentary breaking with someone chucked up and then pelted over jumps, she probably will not have been shown how to respond to the bit in her mouth, nor the connection between the leg aids and the rein aids, so it would be best to go back to the most basic lessons and start her from the beginning. This will need a very experienced person, not a tangle of gear.
 
HGA-12 said:
I have a 5 yo ID mare, who cannot hold herself yet not go iM an outline due to being aloud to hold her head up so far. I would never contemplate draw reins on her yet but working in the school to improve her balance first and ask her to come down rather being forced down into an incorrect position. If your dead set on it why not use one of these( sorry cannot post link on ipad) but elastic trainng aid for horses on ebay, much kinder and more natural than draw reins
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Or they can brace against the elastic and make the problem worse...
 
HGA-12 said:
I have a 5 yo ID mare, who cannot hold herself yet not go iM an outline due to being aloud to hold her head up so far. I would never contemplate draw reins on her yet but working in the school to improve her balance first and ask her to come down rather being forced down into an incorrect position. If your dead set on it why not use one of these( sorry cannot post link on ipad) but elastic trainng aid for horses on ebay, much kinder and more natural than draw reins
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emmarachaelp said:
this is exactly what happened to mine, according to the vet. at the vetting he said she looked like she had been ridden round with her head in the air. I already have the bungee training reins but they weren't much help :(
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OK... you both have young horses and so do I... but I would not consider any of these.

Young horses tend to carry their heads high. Older horses that start education at 5 or 6 tend not to. If you think about growth and musculature as a horse grows, this is not a "fault". It's how they're growing physically, they are not yet complete and balance is not yet settled at this age. Also, young horses tend to have a higher state of mental alertness and if you see young horses in a herd, they very much carry themselves with heads up looking at everything and taking it all in... as they get older they relax and their hormones settle down a bit and life is generally less scary. It's part of the reason many people tend to wait until horses are a bit more mature.

Now, my personal opinion, whilst I don't think there is anything wrong with educating a horse younger than 5/6, I think it's best left at the "education" part... so show them tack, show them how to carry a rider and move with a weight up above. At 15% of a horses bodyweight, the average 500kg horse carries 75kg - thats like you carrying a toddler on your shoulders. Since I have one, I have experimented and it is hard and I couldn't do it for an hour. It would take me a while to get used to it and I would ache. I know we are not sitting on their necks, we are sitting on their backs. So, as this young horse tries to make sense of it all, and throws his head up or down or whatever to balance themselves and you up above, us humans think they are naughty and strap them up as we see it should be done and make it much harder than it already is. Perhaps think about how you can help your young horse and how you are contributing to the partnership. You could make it easier by thinking about your weight aids and balance rather than what bit or strap will magically sort out anything you consider aesthetically displeasing - by "you" I mean one or people, not a personal thing! Good tack helps but a tactful rider makes these things redundant... I am certainly not there myself but have seen how lightly others ride and wish I could do the same.

You may think me a bit extreme as lots of people start ponies young and have no problems... but are you sure there are none? It's only how we are trained to see it. If we really looked, for ourselves, and saw - perhaps you would think differently. I know my own views have changed rather a lot since I was younger.
 
There's nothing more natural about a device the rider cannot yield with when they want to why would any one think there was .
You can trot round in a draw rein with them having no influence on the horse what so ever you can't do that with a bungee .
From bits and saddles to what ever is the gadget du jour there's nothing natural about riding on a horses back .
I find the whole concept there is bizarre .
 
tallyho! said:
OK... you both have young horses and so do I... but I would not consider any of these.

Young horses tend to carry their heads high. Older horses that start education at 5 or 6 tend not to. If you think about growth and musculature as a horse grows, this is not a "fault". It's how they're growing physically, they are not yet complete and balance is not yet settled at this age. Also, young horses tend to have a higher state of mental alertness and if you see young horses in a herd, they very much carry themselves with heads up looking at everything and taking it all in... as they get older they relax and their hormones settle down a bit and life is generally less scary. It's part of the reason many people tend to wait until horses are a bit more mature.

Now, my personal opinion, whilst I don't think there is anything wrong with educating a horse younger than 5/6, I think it's best left at the "education" part... so show them tack, show them how to carry a rider and move with a weight up above. At 15% of a horses bodyweight, the average 500kg horse carries 75kg - thats like you carrying a toddler on your shoulders. Since I have one, I have experimented and it is hard and I couldn't do it for an hour. It would take me a while to get used to it and I would ache. I know we are not sitting on their necks, we are sitting on their backs. So, as this young horse tries to make sense of it all, and throws his head up or down or whatever to balance themselves and you up above, us humans think they are naughty and strap them up as we see it should be done and make it much harder than it already is. Perhaps think about how you can help your young horse and how you are contributing to the partnership. You could make it easier by thinking about your weight aids and balance rather than what bit or strap will magically sort out anything you consider aesthetically displeasing - by "you" I mean one or people, not a personal thing! Good tack helps but a tactful rider makes these things redundant... I am certainly not there myself but have seen how lightly others ride and wish I could do the same.

You may think me a bit extreme as lots of people start ponies young and have no problems... but are you sure there are none? It's only how we are trained to see it. If we really looked, for ourselves, and saw - perhaps you would think differently. I know my own views have changed rather a lot since I was younger.
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I have never started a young horse that carried it head high they carry their heads low .
Apart the ten yo I backed he went like a horse that had swallowed a periscope at first
 
I had a boy who was perfect with a good little quiet rider on board from day one of backing, however as he got fitter and he was asked to hack out on his own, his default was to keep his head rather high, he was always ready to flee, this was not a change in his conformation, it was the fact that he was out of his comfort zone, even standing in the yard, he kept his head quite high, always on the alert.
His conformation was not what any dressage person would want, he was a standard bred type, a driving horse. So there were several factors mitigating against him, conformation, maturity/musculature, and his general spookiness. I did not consider that he needed anything other than a good rider: good hands and a good rider make a good horse. Oh, and a magnesium calmer helped too.
 
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I'm not speaking for every horse on the planet either... I'm just saying they "tend" to, for whatever reason, some young horses will be better than others.

They are not clones. They are individuals and you can only go with what you have in front of you and I guess experiences are shaped by those :)
 
emmarachaelp said:
I think because they're not connected to your hands and they don't force the head down, they just encourage the horse. They're made out of elastic so they're kinder.
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Exactly glad you typed what i would have done, I thought it was obvious to most why. ;)



Though we are just working on walk and trot at the moment, no gadgets as i don't like using them till all else fails. Just schooling, but trying to rid these sarcoids so no schooling till gone
 
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Im posting these pictures not to show the finished article as my mare is still very much a work in progress - but hopefully to give you hope that it can be achieved without using gadgets. The difference in this mare has been achieved using only hillwork and loose schooling over raised trotting poles.

Before - this was 4 months ago

image.jpg3_zpsqxfiypzz.jpg


This was last week. Please excuse my hands - I know I have a dreadful contact here (I am working on me too)

image.jpg4_zpsavdtiv63.jpg
 
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EQUIDAE said:
Im posting these pictures not to show the finished article as my mare is still very much a work in progress - but hopefully to give you hope that it can be achieved without using gadgets. The difference in this mare has been achieved using only hillwork and loose schooling over raised trotting poles.

Before - this was 4 months ago

image.jpg3_zpsqxfiypzz.jpg


This was last week. Please excuse my hands - I know I have a dreadful contact here (I am working on me too)

image.jpg4_zpsavdtiv63.jpg
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I think that proves the point : those ear covers are the best gadget for your pony, and mixtie matchy colours are a definite plus when it comes to taking a contact :D
PS, she seems to be a different colour and has grown four inches , but hey, it might be my eyesight
 
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Bonkers2 said:
I think that proves the point : those ear covers are the best gadget for your pony, and mixtie matchy colours are a definite plus when it comes to taking a contact :D
PS, she seems to be a different colour and has grown four inches , but hey, it might be my eyesight
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Ear covers as she hates the wind and we are at the top of a hill. The first pic she is still partly in her winter woollies and the rider is 5ft6 - I'm riding in the 2nd pic and I'm only 5ft1 ;) she's only 14h2 bless here. It's amazing how much taller they look though when they lift their shoulder...

ETA - if you look at her bum she actually looks shorter in the 2nd picture in relation to the fence ;)
 
I was going to suggest taking the martingale off, I think they can irritate some, effect your rein aids and make head tossing problems worse.

Waterfords might have their place but it isn't for schooling, certainly a young horse that is just learning about contact. They give no contact or connection for them to take/seek.
 
ester said:
I was going to suggest taking the martingale off, I think they can irritate some, effect your rein aids and make head tossing problems worse.
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I don't think she really needs it anymore, if she goes everyday how she did today. Maybe for jumping when she gets excited and more forward.
 
webble said:
Equidae that must be a different horse!! Or have you programmed her somehow with the hat gadget? Can't possibly be patience and good riding :p
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Hat thing is cause she hates wind - windy on the moors lol.

Note the 4 month transformation also includes dirty to matchy ;)
 
Emma....roughly speaking, what area are you in geographically? It is very hard for anyone to give advice without knowing your riding/experience level and seeing your horse and how you both interact in the flesh - so's to speak! IMO there has been a lot of fair advice given, but nothing will compare to a pair of good experienced eyes on the ground.
 
If you have to use draw reins, she won't be carrying herself...

I don't think they're the work of the devil - they can be useful for say, a rearer, but for getting a horse to go properly round? Nope. All you are doing is putting the head in a posed/closed position, and that isn't healthy for the animal, and she won't develop the correct musculature.

Get some lessons with a proper dressage instructor. (someone who has actually competed successfully at a decent level preferably) or if that is out of your budget, there are many many good books detailing the correct way of going, and the reasoning behind it. You do need to understand the reasoning, to ride a horse 'on the bit' - it isn't about looking pretty and the head is a very small part of the picture. I like Podhajsky's book, found it pretty accessible, but if that's too dry there is probably a modern equivalent!

Also, don't worry, 3 months is no time :) You can't rush these things! Think of it as a journey.
 
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Doesn't matter that you are not sawing (which is a good thing).
You want your horse to work forward and seek the bit, I don't imagine a horse will happily seek contact with a waterford bit.
 
emmarachaelp said:
UPDATE


I just rode her in a snaffle and took the martingale off (because the loop that goes around the girth doesn't fit on my dressage one) and she didn't lean, throw her head around and she was so so calm (she's usually speedy at the beginning). She felt lovely.

Thank you everyone for your advice. I am definitely not going to use draw reins after everything you've all said as she will get there eventually! The right way!��
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Very pleased to hear that and pleased that you have listened to some of the wise advice on here. I have similar issues with my horse (he rushes) but we are making progress in a snaffle and with lots of circles to bring his hocks under him. Feels fantastic when he goes "right" and puts himself into an outline and, while I'm not a fan of gadgets in general, makes me even more pleased we haven't taken any short cuts. Good luck with continuing her education. It can be frustrating when it takes a while but think of it as the right building blocks for the future.
 
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