draw reins

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AnnaPK

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Hello lovely people,
I am curious re: draw reins, perhaps it's my time spent on socials but it has always been drilled into me that draw reins are a big NO. I, personally belive that any tack can be abusive in the wrong hands. my trainer has told me I should try draw reins from the D ring. He believes it will help some of the straightness and leaning issues I have been having. Initially I assumed the leaning on the bit could be felt with by making myself stronger, as it did used to cause me to collapse in my seat. Now I go to the gym 4-6 times a week and am physically strong in the core arms back and legs. I dont feel that was the solution at all thus. I feel like the more I work him with him on the forehand the way he is the worse the issue will become as his muscles become more defined and his movement becomes set. He is a big fella at 16.3hh, if anything he is likely to default to being behind the vertical so I defo dont want him any mire behind said vertical. What do you think? Is this a good training aid to help grow muscles through correct movement? someone also recommended me a Waterford bit but again I have heard bad things of those!!! what do you guys think?
Regards from a wet muddy field,
Anna & Benson
 
Gosh, I'm not qualified to answer regarding draw reins, but from what you have said, draw reins definitely don't seem to be the answer.

You shouldn't need strength to ride a horse. Your body needs to be strong in its core, and you need to be able to hold yourself so that you are easy to carry. If your horse is pulling, it means you are pulling.

Anyhow, someone who knows what they are talking about will come along and say something useful.

: }
 
Personally I don't think they are the answer to this problem. If he leans on your hands and you hold him there (with or without draw reins) you are 'letting' him learn (mentally and in muscle development) that he can be heavy in the hand or rein. My instructor here would say something like (and I am not an instructor and am paraphrasing) - give a small pull upwards with either or both hands depending on whether he leans one way or straight. Then soften to the point he has to carry himself. When he starts to lean again, do it again. We're not talking a big jab in the mouth but more like a rein half halt to lighten him, but then let go so that he has to carry his own head. Others may put it better, or disagree.

Side note on draw reins - I don't use them for schooling but will use them as a safety device, e.g. with a horse that would nap, spin and head for home when hacking. My hand was neither strong enough nor quick enough to stop the initial spin, but with draw reins I always could. It didn't take long to break that habit. They weren't held tightly to the point that the horse was overbent or forced into any kind of shape just there as a safety backup.
 
It sounds like balance is the issue. Compressing the neck never solves anything, "long the neck,.short the body" as Manolo Mendez would say.

I would find a different trainer but also play with postural groundwork, tackling the issue from a position of first principles. I recommend my saddle fit customers to the Slow Walk Work group on FB, run by Diana Waters who has been writing articles for Horse and Rider recently.

Equitopiacenter.com has some really good resources from all.sorts of different experts to help understand these issues better.
 
As others have said, if he's leaning on your hands more contact/draw reins aren't going to help. A contact should be just a touch on the rein, there shouldn't be enough pressure to require strength.
If you drop your reins when he starts leaning, what happens? If he falls on his nose (obviously try this in walk, not at speed!) then he probably hasn't got the strength to carry himself properly with a rider on board and has learned to use your hands as a 'fifth leg'. In this case, as above groundwork is a good call to teach him to carry himself properly, followed by fittening him up under saddle to carry a rider without having to balance on the rider's hands.
Once they've learned to lean it's a difficult habit to break- once he's doing the fittening work under saddle I would recommend taking up little to no contact until he's put on the muscle to hold himself up and has fallen out of the habit, as it's easy for them (and us) to slip back into leaning rather than put in the extra effort to build strength.
Lots of hill work and going over rough ground at slow speeds is good for building that strength, either on the long reins or under saddle.
 
I took over the ride on a warmblood who leaned. We spent the first 2 months walking & trotting circles indoors on a loose rein. He realised that I certainly wasn't going to hold up his front end, that was his job. You obviously need good balance and I used the indoor because he had a reputation for tanking off. Funnily enough once he'd begun listening to me and understand that my legs might means things like sideways the tanking off stopped.

Everytime he'd start to lean he'd have to 'do something'. That might just mean a few steps of leg yield or we'd turn onto a circle or change the rein - but whatever we did he'd have to bring the weight back himself or he'd fall on his nose. Despite how it feels sometimes horses don't generally want to face plant! Owners hubbie turned up one evening and didn't recognise the horse because his way of going was so different - and it didn't take that long for the penny to drop either. Teaching the owner not to lean on the horse's mouth was a whole different ballgame though....

Start in walk. One of the Ritter exercises is about riding a diamond and smoothing off the sides so you've got part circle / part diamond and I will often come back to that if I need a slower exercise. You are using your legs to guide them around the shape so your reins can be loose and they have to learn to step underneath themselves.
 
I have one that leans and loves to tow along on the forehand, also incredibly strong when it suits and his go-to when he arrived was to tuck behind the contact as he'd always been ridden in a strong contact. I totally feel your pain as I have also had rides where I feel like my shoulders are nearly dislocated and it's so hard to maintain a good seat and soft back on a horse that wants you to hold their head up all the time. I don't think draw reins will fix your problem though sorry, they are likely to just make him tuck his head to his chest more.

With mine when is when he's heavy in the hand it's because he's not working from behind or through his back which is a chronic issue with him. What works with him (alongside working with my trainer weekly on all this) is preventing that 'falling into the hand' by keeping him engaged behind and building his core strength and balance. I will rarely trot down a long-side without collecting him and leg yielding him over, if I ever feel him start to lean I bring him back to almost a half-step of walk and then push forward again to rebalance him, we do lots and lots of lateral work with him - shoulder-in, travers, walk pirouettes. When he is relaxed towards the end of the ride I aim to do 10 minutes trotting long and low where he will offer it. He finds all this hard as he's not accustomed to working this way, so you have to keep a close eye on when they are tiring and keep it short and sweet and focus on quality over quantity. I lunge him in equicore bands for 15 minutes before I get on (in just a cavesson, nothing on his head to force a position) and do walk poles after each ride, he also goes on the water treadmill once a week and in summer we focus on a lot of hill-work. It's been 2 years and he is just starting to offer some rides where he feels lovely and soft throughout the whole session but it is a constant work in progress, but rewarding to see the improvements - he has only just now started to reach down on the lunge in the equicore bands and work long and low through his back after going from 'llama' on the lunge, to a neutral head position for a few months and now starting to stretch and use his core.
 
Draw reins will encourage your horse to get a broken neckline
Including definition below cuz it’s not actually a broken neck 😅

A "broken neckline" in a horse usually refers to
an overbent, incorrect frame where the neck breaks behind the poll (often at the 3rd vertebra) rather than at the atlas/axis, typically caused by improper training, such as forcing the head down with draw reins. It indicates the horse is not working correctly from behind, leading to a reversed, uncomfortable posture.
 
Draw reins are fine… used appropriately. One of my horses was a nightmare out hacking, would rear at anything she fancied.

Put her in a set of draw reins, instant better behaviour without even having to hold on to them.
 
Definitely not what is needed in this instance. Draw reins will give the horse more to lean against. More balance and use of the back end are needed to lighten the forehand. If you can try and find someone who can assess you and your horse, including the horse's conformation as this can play a huge part in things and give you exercises to help. Developing posture and correct muscular development will take time and sadly there are few effective shortcuts.
 
I am a novice so not really qualified to comment, but I did want to say OP that I'm glad you are questioning this because it doesn't sound like a correct use of draw reins or sympathetic/progressive approach to training from your trainer.

Most of my lessons are in walk, I've ridden for years but these walk lessons have taught me so much. Recently I had a lesson where we had been doing a combo of pole and lateral work in walk, and just a handful of walk-trot-walk transitions, and the horse offered some lovely uphill walk. I thought he had grown a hand taller in front of me and couldn't believe this 'posh walk' we had achieved 😂 This is on a big (17hh+), veteran horse who will also lean on me at times. If anything I've learned to be softer and 'do less' rather than get stronger.
 
Draw reins can have a time and a place if used correctly, for example I use them on horses who are a little unreliable out hacking. Issues with straightness is often linked to a lack of suppleness, which you will not correct by schooling in draw reins. If he defaults to being behind the vertical, trying to "out strength" him is not the answer, he needs to be ridden leg into hand, not the other way around. I would be looking for a new coach who has experience with classical dressage.
 
I think draw reins in some circumstances are very useful.
I don't think it sounds like your horse fits that category, based on what you've said.
 
Thank you so much all for your thoughts. and for confirming what I thought to be right, my horse will not benefit from draw reins. I thank you all equally for your respectful and educational replies. I just want the best for my horse and although I, as an 18 y/o girl, find it hard to stand unto my trainers I will be refusing to ride him in draw reins. As you have all suggested I will be dealing with this issue with ground work, hill work and lateral work. I appreciate all your help.
 
I had a thought while I was out.

Can you ask your instructor about why she is recommending draw reins? I'm sure they are all right in some hands, and it would be interesting to know what she's thinking. I did suspect that someone would say they are fine (and I'm sure they are if the person knows what to do etc etc). I think it would be a missed opportunity to not talk to your instructor to gain some insight. This is assuming that your instructor has this knowledge and skill. I think what I'm saying is, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater without first knowing what your instructor is thinking.

I would love to know further developments on This Case if there are any. I love to learn this sort of thing even if there is almost zero likelihood that I'll ever use it.
 
Lois Lame said:
I had a thought while I was out.

Can you ask your instructor about why she is recommending draw reins? I'm sure they are all right in some hands, and it would be interesting to know what she's thinking. I did suspect that someone would say they are fine (and I'm sure they are if the person knows what to do etc etc). I think it would be a missed opportunity to not talk to your instructor to gain some insight. This is assuming that your instructor has this knowledge and skill. I think what I'm saying is, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater without first knowing what your instructor is thinking.

I would love to know further developments on This Case if there are any. I love to learn this sort of thing even if there is almost zero likelihood that I'll ever use it.
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I called him today and spoke on my concerns with him as otherwise I would worry about it until my next lesson. His theory here is if he went to lean on my hand (as previously mentioned they would go from the D ring to the bit to my hand rather than from the girth) he would be leaning on himself which would be more stable, as when he goes to learn on me I can hold for a certain amount of time but not for a whole dressage test, he thinks the consistency of the pressure from him pulling on him rather than me will teach him to hold himself? I wonder what this thread thinks about this explanation, on one level it makes some sense to me in that if he where to lean the pressure, asking him to hold himself, would be both instantaneous (rather than me having to react and tell him off as one used said by half halting to bring him off the forehand) and much more stable than myself. On another level I really worry about him falling behind the vertical, which is why I have him in such a light bit with no tongue pressure ( its a miler bit, cant remember exactly which but looks like a happy bomber a little) and why I dont agree with just putting a Waterford bit in his mouth either as one of my friends suggested. I feel like im receiving allot of conflicting opinions. with this context, of what my instructor was thinking, does this change anyones opinion at all? Personally, Im not convinced. But, I do trust his judgement and he has known our partnership for 2 years. Id love to hear more from previous commenters?
-
Thank you,
Anna
 
Lois Lame said:
I don't quite go along with this theory. Some things are so much more risky can other things. Twisted snaffles for example. One of them could never be all right, even with the most skillful rider.
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ah no, definitely. I think I said it wrong, I mean more that while some tack is stronger and more likely to cause harm (or indeed definitely like a twisted snaffle) I think that even the lightest bit can cause harm in the wrong hands.
 
AnnaPK said:
I called him today and spoke on my concerns with him as otherwise I would worry about it until my next lesson. His theory here is if he went to lean on my hand (as previously mentioned they would go from the D ring to the bit to my hand rather than from the girth) he would be leaning on himself which would be more stable, as when he goes to learn on me I can hold for a certain amount of time but not for a whole dressage test, he thinks the consistency of the pressure from him pulling on him rather than me will teach him to hold himself? I wonder what this thread thinks about this explanation, on one level it makes some sense to me in that if he where to lean the pressure, asking him to hold himself, would be both instantaneous (rather than me having to react and tell him off as one used said by half halting to bring him off the forehand) and much more stable than myself. On another level I really worry about him falling behind the vertical, which is why I have him in such a light bit with no tongue pressure ( its a miler bit, cant remember exactly which but looks like a happy bomber a little) and why I dont agree with just putting a Waterford bit in his mouth either as one of my friends suggested. I feel like im receiving allot of conflicting opinions. with this context, of what my instructor was thinking, does this change anyones opinion at all? Personally, Im not convinced. But, I do trust his judgement and he has known our partnership for 2 years. Id love to hear more from previous commenters?
-
Thank you,
Anna
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It sounds like he's trying to treat the symptom rather than the cause. The leaning is a symptom of a lack of strength/balance, so letting him lean on himself (which side reins would accomplish with less leverage, not that I'm in any way advocating their use here!) isn't going to solve the problem, just reduce the effort you need to put into holding him up.
I'd say it's worth looking for an instructor who places more importance of self-carriage/posture who can give you pointers on making him work properly rather than papering over the cracks. If you don't want to upset the current instructor, you may be able to find a clinic to go to rather than a permanent replacement instructor.
 
It still doesn't sound like an appropriate use of draw reins to me. I hear the worry about working downhill too much but equally I don't imagine this approach would develop your horse's strength and suppleness in the right way either.

I can appreciate it's difficult when you have people around offering all different ideas and an established relationship with an instructor, but I think you questioned this with good reason and that this is one of those times to go with your gut.

In your position, if this is the only solution your trainer is offering to this problem, I would look elsewhere for someone to teach me.

ETA - perhaps a more experienced person can offer a view here; how would the mechanics of this set up stop a horse from leaning by doing anything other than curling up it's neck? I'm struggling to imagine how it would help the horse step uphill more?
 
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AnnaPK said:
I called him today and spoke on my concerns with him as otherwise I would worry about it until my next lesson. His theory here is if he went to lean on my hand (as previously mentioned they would go from the D ring to the bit to my hand rather than from the girth) he would be leaning on himself which would be more stable, as when he goes to learn on me I can hold for a certain amount of time but not for a whole dressage test, he thinks the consistency of the pressure from him pulling on him rather than me will teach him to hold himself? I wonder what this thread thinks about this explanation, on one level it makes some sense to me in that if he where to lean the pressure, asking him to hold himself, would be both instantaneous (rather than me having to react and tell him off as one used said by half halting to bring him off the forehand) and much more stable than myself. On another level I really worry about him falling behind the vertical, which is why I have him in such a light bit with no tongue pressure ( its a miler bit, cant remember exactly which but looks like a happy bomber a little) and why I dont agree with just putting a Waterford bit in his mouth either as one of my friends suggested. I feel like im receiving allot of conflicting opinions. with this context, of what my instructor was thinking, does this change anyones opinion at all? Personally, Im not convinced. But, I do trust his judgement and he has known our partnership for 2 years. Id love to hear more from previous commenters?
-
Thank you,
Anna
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Self carriage is imperative for dressage and the horse should not be leaning at all - leaning on himself is a myth, he will still be leaning on your hands, it is just the draw reins use a pulley action which makes them stronger. He needs to be taught not to lean at all, which I expect will take a period of a few months of hard work, not a quick fix by applying a gadget. Again, if a horse falls behind the vertical, draw reins are the very opposite of what he needs. If this is your coach's stance, I would be looking for another instructor pronto. What location are you in? I'm sure there will be some good suggestions from posters on here as to who may be able to help you.

Re the conflicting opinions, with this context of your trainer's thoughts, this only solidifies my opinion - draw reins are not the way to go and you need someone that actually understands self carriage and balance in horses, not someone who cuts corners.

Again, I would certainly not be schooling a horse in a waterford bit. Not only will you get into a vicious cycle of putting in stronger bit, horse will get stronger, then even stronger bit required, a waterford is not dressage legal. Therefore, what will you do when it is time to compete?

It is hard as a young person to stand up to trainers, as someone who was previously an instructor myself, I would suggest politely walking away from this trainer and finding another. Not only will your dressage marks thank you in the long run, but your horse too.
 
AnnaPK said:
I called him today and spoke on my concerns with him as otherwise I would worry about it until my next lesson. His theory here is if he went to lean on my hand (as previously mentioned they would go from the D ring to the bit to my hand rather than from the girth) he would be leaning on himself which would be more stable, as when he goes to learn on me I can hold for a certain amount of time but not for a whole dressage test, he thinks the consistency of the pressure from him pulling on him rather than me will teach him to hold himself? I wonder what this thread thinks about this explanation, on one level it makes some sense to me in that if he where to lean the pressure, asking him to hold himself, would be both instantaneous (rather than me having to react and tell him off as one used said by half halting to bring him off the forehand) and much more stable than myself. On another level I really worry about him falling behind the vertical, which is why I have him in such a light bit with no tongue pressure ( its a miler bit, cant remember exactly which but looks like a happy bomber a little) and why I dont agree with just putting a Waterford bit in his mouth either as one of my friends suggested. I feel like im receiving allot of conflicting opinions. with this context, of what my instructor was thinking, does this change anyones opinion at all? Personally, Im not convinced. But, I do trust his judgement and he has known our partnership for 2 years. Id love to hear more from previous commenters?
-
Thank you,
Anna
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Again I don't agree with his theory. The horse wouldn't be leaning on himself, he'd be leaning on the D rings plus your hands. So about half of the pressure is transferred to the saddle, which won't get tired as your hands do, but he is still leaning and when you take the draw reins away he'll revert to being heavy in the hand. He won't have learned not to, or developed musculature to actually carry himself. At best (and I don't really mean this as a best outcome) he will have learned to keep his head in a static position because he isn't able to pull downwards, or upwards or anything else.
 
Im thinking of sending him this message. any comments? :

Hi *******, I have been thinking about your recommendation of draw reins, I just want to clarify exactly how these would help?

As I understand it I would be using them to keep Benson *my horse * straight, as we were working on when I was riding away from the track in our last lesson.
My concern lies with him leaning on my hand, Surely draw reins would just lessen the pressure from my hand but still allow him to lean, when taken away would the issue not still be present? I worry that draw reins will cause him to go back behind the vertical as he was when we bought him. I really don’t want to encourage him to do this as it took me a year and a half just to get his head off his chest and the poll high. Id like to tackle this issue with strength training (hill work) and ground work to treat the cause not the problem. Do you have any recommendations on exercises I can use to have him stepping more uphill and leaning less?

Thanks,
Anna
 
I fear where you'd end up is a heavy horse requiring lots of leg to keep going. He's just going to learn to balance on the d ring rather than develop self carriage. Lots of transitions, lateral work, not pushing them out of balance, time and a good instructor is how you bring them off the forehand it isn't an instant thing if they haven't developed the musculature and balance.

I rode a giant cob x Tb who was so heavy in the hand yet still on the forehand and was not off the aids at all because he had been pushed forward out of his natural balance into the contact before he was ready so he 'looked' round. Golly was he a hard ride, he was still young and was not the most forward or motivated horse. I dropped the front end and pretty much rode with loopy reins on the finger tips and retaught him what the leg and seat aids meant out hacking. I only rode him for a a short time so I can't say how right I was but I did feel like he did more work than me rather than the other way around at the end.

I think what your instructor is saying is that your horse will suddenly decide that the pressure is too much, give up and stop leaning? This is assuming it's a fight and he who pulls hardest will win. I am afraid that just won't happen. He may duck behind the contact to avoid it or just learn to accept this increased pressure and continue to balance through leaning. Neither mean he will be off the forehand. I am not sure I've explained that very well.

You could suggest a vague location you'd prefer and if anyone has good instructors they can recommend?
 
Cloball said:
You could suggest a vague location you'd prefer and if anyone has good instructors they can recommend
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thankfully I have other trainers as well so I will just scale back my lessons with them, he has done wonders for my confidence and I have camp booked with him this summer so I will likely continue to ride with him assuming I can still question what he says for myself which fingers crossed I am quite good at (id like to think so anyway) I take everyones point here that he is fixing the problem not the cause and I agree, thank you for educating me, I needed to hear a resounding "no" which is what this forum is so good at. As when I have questioned it with friends on the yard they all seem to agree with him, which is what had me turning to here to ask. I will speak to him again about my concerns ( see the message above ) and see how he reacts and go from there. Thank you for all your help all. I will keep you all posted.
Thanks,
Anna.
 
Oh the amount of people that said to me with the above horse that I needed to take MORE of a contact, stronger bit and boot him/smack him constantly to get him going forward. It is a misunderstanding of the term leg to hand I think. Plus people seem to want it to 'look' round as fast as possible.
 
A horse can’t lean if there is nothing to lean against … giving them more to lean against will make the issue worse.

Take the rein firmly then release … until
You get the desired contact ie very light but if your horse is weak understand that this is difficult for them so don’t ask them to hold that for too
Long in the beginning
 
AnnaPK said:
Im thinking of sending him this message. any comments? :

Hi *******, I have been thinking about your recommendation of draw reins, I just want to clarify exactly how these would help?

As I understand it I would be using them to keep Benson *my horse * straight, as we were working on when I was riding away from the track in our last lesson.
My concern lies with him leaning on my hand, Surely draw reins would just lessen the pressure from my hand but still allow him to lean, when taken away would the issue not still be present? I worry that draw reins will cause him to go back behind the vertical as he was when we bought him. I really don’t want to encourage him to do this as it took me a year and a half just to get his head off his chest and the poll high. Id like to tackle this issue with strength training (hill work) and ground work to treat the cause not the problem. Do you have any recommendations on exercises I can use to have him stepping more uphill and leaning less?

Thanks,
Anna
Click to expand...

I would be more direct I think. Something like

“Thank you for your explanation but I’d rather not use the draw reins and work at fixing the cause for his leaning. I’m happy for our next sessions to be working on the ground to help him strengthen and get him to carry himself properly. Any other recommendations that I can do in the meantime would be most welcome.”

It sounds like you’ve made up your mind not to use the draw reins so I would just tell him that so it gives him time to plan something else for your next lesson. And if he can’t come up with another plan then use someone who can until your on top of the issue and then resume your lessons once you’ve fixed it since you’re fond of him.
 
Just no. Like I said compressing the neck in dressage (and other disciplines) is already a standard way of going, it's not correct according to dressage rules for good reason, but it doesn't get penalised. So if that's your "paradigm", thinking it's correct, then using draw reins to achieve some kind of mythical "lightness" might seem logical, but the horse is compressed even more and is harmed even more.

Correct work is about lifting the base of the neck, but that comes from the hind end being able to decelerate, literally to brake, to control speed, and to direct forces across the back, and for freedom in the thoracic sling so the horse can convert that energy into upward thrust. Driving a mildly dysfunctional hind leg into a closed hand does compress the neck and compromise the back end.

The lack of leaning simply means the thrust is directed somewhere else incorrect, and cannot by definition get the horse off the forehand meaning you aren't addressing the cause. I'd personally be very wary of a trainer that thought this was a good use of them

Their original use was for lateral flexion - attached to the girth straps/top of a long girth on both sides instead of between the leg and only used one side at a time. They were also usually attached to a cavesson, a lunge type cavesson that was used for riding classically, not to the mouth. For this they can be useful but no-one uses them this way.

It really is worth getting onto something like equitopiacenter.com and reading around correct movement and posture, you'll feel so much more comfortable with your rejection of his recommendation.
 
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