dressage...behind the vertical

Nothing to add really, but as someone who is just starting out in dressage with my 6yo, this has been a really interesting read. Especially when illustrated with photos!
 
kate2323 said:
thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
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Wow, the level of arrogance is outstanding here.

Nothing like a moment in time to judge years of work...
 
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:
to make a horses supple and strong enough to move in self carriage you gradually teach the horse to move its body around, each section, each mucle independently until you can alter the bend, the flexion, the frame, the gear, the lateral direction, one at a time, without it impacting on anything else-thats self carriage, not being able to throw the reins at its ears and have it stay in the same stuck frame!
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This is a really useful explanation; thank you.

kate2323 said:
thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
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I can supply you with numerous pictures of horses with their face on the horizontal if you prefer?

I don't mean to jibe, but can you really say that your horses are always perfect, all of the time? Might yours appear to be BTV, tucked in, not properly engaged, at times? Can you ever really judge with 100% accuracy without knowing the whole story?
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
its deemed politically incorrect to say so but horses have to be submissive to the hand in the same way they are submissive to the leg-you touch and something should damn well happen. I see a lot of klassical nonsense telling you that any horse poking its nose forward is reaching for the contact but its fairly obvious from the tight back and braced neck that if the rider closed the hand the horse would either yaw and brace in the mouth, or hollow completely and invert.
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PS, it took me so long to figure this out! And you are totally right. The BTV thing can go both ways, from people over-jealous with their hands, to people too scared to touch their horse's mouth. (which I was, partially because online and in a lot of texts, people make out that they have a feather light touch on the horse's mouth, right from the beginning, and the horse automatically understands what they want and they and never have to correct them. I wonder how true that really is!)
 
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only_me said:
Nothing like a moment in time to judge years of work...
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This. The thing about dressage is that it's supposed to demonstrate the scales of training - so horses at Prelim shouldn't have to demonstrate the incredible balance, strength, suppleness and self carriage being demonstrated at Grand Prix (to horribly over-simplify things). Some horses DO duck behind the vertical because they are naturally "curling up" due to weakness rather than being hauled in in front by the rider - mine included at times . . . at Prelim (and even Nov and Ele) it's simply an indicator of where they are in the scales of training/fitness/strength. A photograph in H&H (or anywhere else for that matter) is a moment in time . . . and is often dependant on the eye of the photographer/editor rather than the judge. If I believed, for a second, that horses up and down the country did entire (Prelim/Nov and Ele) tests with their chins touching their chests, I'd be agreeing with you - but I don't. Nor do I believe that judges either condone or don't mark down horses going incorrectly - not the (professional) judges I know and write for.

P
 
We had our first prelim last weekend as well, our first test read "sympathetically ridden on a difficult horse" he seemed to forget the re-trained part in "re-trained ex-racehorse" lol!
 
kate2323 said:
thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
Click to expand...

can i ask how many horses you have trained to GP and what level you have competed up to? not because i think you have to have trained to GP to be able to comment, but because once you have done it you will realise how training is not fluid, things come and go, as one thing improves something else goes to rat-****, and that BTV is not the be all and end all.

once you have actually been on that journey, you will understand how silly you sound now.
 
Lol, we got eliminated from our first prelim because I couldn't get him inside the white boards!!! So I'm guessing you guys did better than me :P You should do a post!
 
Pigeon said:
Lol, we got eliminated from our first prelim because I couldn't get him inside the white boards!!! So I'm guessing you guys did better than me :P You should do a post!
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Ha! That's impressive :). In all Kal's prattiest of pratty moments, he never managed to get eliminated . . . he did once do most of an Intro test in canter, though.

P
 
PolarSkye said:
Ha! That's impressive :). In all Kal's prattiest of pratty moments, he never managed to get eliminated . . . he did once do most of an Intro test in canter, though.

P
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We've been eliminated from four tests. How's that for good going!!! :p Hahaha bless him. You have to laugh sometimes don't you, when they get ideas in their head about how dressage should be done...
 
We did a beautiful piaffe, passage and leg yield in canter (great, but not entirely needed at prelim lol) we also randomly decided that we were a stallion (he isn't) and so we screamed at everything in a 5 mile radius! You know it's been entertaining when you grind to a halt, salute, look at the judge and she's laughing! He's so embarrassing!
 
And just to add to OP ...
You can get you picture in H&H for, as an example, a win at 70%.

What does 70% equate to? 'Fairly good'. That means there is a decent amount of room for improvement. All horses will have strengths and weaknesses, but the result at a competition just means that you were better than the other combinations entered that day. It doesn't mean perfection.

ETA - OP what level have you ridden to? Would you be willing to put your money where your mouth is an post a video of you riding a horse that you deem to be correctly trained for their age/level?
 
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CS got techincally eliminated 4 or 5 times in his first test, for "episodes of prolonged resistance" but the judge kindly lets us continue and make him finish as he was the last one of the day in that ring. He kept napping to the collecting ring and rearing in the corners, it took us 20mins to do N22!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
slumdog said:
We did a beautiful piaffe, passage and leg yield in canter (great, but not entirely needed at prelim lol) we also randomly decided that we were a stallion (he isn't) and so we screamed at everything in a 5 mile radius! You know it's been entertaining when you grind to a halt, salute, look at the judge and she's laughing! He's so embarrassing!
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We had one of those - judge was in fits of giggles . . . asked me if he was an OTTB four-year-old . . . he was 13 at the time. Z's face when she had to give and retake the reins was a picture - she was bricking it and we all thought he would end up back at the lorry park (from where he had tried to escape earlier in the day by breaking the bailer twine and legging it down the drive - watched by the judge).

Horses are a fantastic leveller . . . :).

P
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
CS got techincally eliminated 4 or 5 times in his first test, for "episodes of prolonged resistance" but the judge kindly lets us continue and make him finish as he was the last one of the day in that ring. He kept napping to the collecting ring and rearing in the corners, it took us 20mins to do N22!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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LOL :). That's impressive.

P
 
ihatework said:
And just to add to OP ...
You can get you picture in H&H for, as an example, a win at 70%.

What does 70% equate to? 'Fairly good'. That means there is a decent amount of room for improvement. All horses will have strengths and weaknesses, but the result at a competition just means that you were better than the other combinations entered that day. It doesn't mean perfection.
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Excellent point.

P
 
I'm expecting something similar in my horses first test, probably no rearing but certainly napping and a lot of shouting to other horses lol
 
JillA said:
There is a dressage trainer and competitor not far from me who often posts pics of her on her horses on FB. All but one I have seen was BTV, which makes me think she doesn't even realise it isn't good. Not hyperflexion (rollkur) but just BTV, so IMHO that means the flexion is being developed from the front not the hind engagement. This may only be snapshots, as she regularly posts scores of approaching 70+, and decent placings/qualifying. Either the photos are a bad example (yet still she posts them!!) or they are like that in tests and the judges don't penalise it.
Either way not brilliant from someone who regards herself as a dressage trainer.
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The judges can easily penalise it and the horse still score a great mark overall. It is just a part of it, not all of it. If a test is ridden accurately and the horse is willing, forward, supple, etc...there is no reason that losing marks for BTV would drop it out of the placings.

Prince33Sp4rkle said:
Op i would be interested to see pics of your horse and videos of how he works. One persons "up free and happy" is another persons *braced over the topline, against the contact and hollow* and that is NO BETTER than being BTV.
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Absolutely. I listed to someone over the course of a year say how correct her horse was because he never ducked behind the vertical. When I finally saw them working, the horse was so braced and stifled in its movement I struggled to find the right way to explain why I wanted to change things to her.

kate2323 said:
am I one of just a few who see that dressage is moving towards the norm of a pulled in horse ....depressing ....no-one bar a few people seem to see this as a problem....this is the worrying thing!!!!!!!
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No, lots of people "see" this and many discussions have been had on this forum, but most people are not quite so one track minded. People, generally but not always, people who have trained horses up through the levels, understand how training a horse actually works and that even at Inter level...what you are seeing is not a finished product. BTV is one of the lease worrying carriages you can see to be honest as there are so so many perfectly valid reasons for it.

Moomin1 said:
You see all sorts of training issues at dressage comps, not just btv. Most of the unaffiliated comps around where I am the standard is really poor, with horses hurried/rushed/unbalanced/noses poking/outward bend, yet they get scored highly. I don't think any of those issues are any less potentially damaging or uncomfortable for the horse than being btv tbh.
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And it's not just dressage.

kate2323 said:
yes I agree....I really think the levels of training need to be more structured and organised....so people actually know what to work towards at all levels...having a beautifully balanced horse like a ballerina should be the norm....light and harmonious....I have seen SO many horses with riders hands low sawing away to get the horse "on the bit" getting the rosettes.....its sad!!
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There is a very structured and well established scale of training known the world over and followed by all sorts of "types" of trainer. The availability of knowledge and support in training is not lacking in any way. What is happening though is that more people are able to afford their own horse now, afford to go to competitions, but not necessarily afford to keep having correct lessons and coaching, so there are noe many many riders out there, trying to replicate what they see at the top level, but without the knowledge and experience to do it properly, so the shortcuts are taken.

JFTD said:
Now if you'd posted about riders "see sawing" to get their horse on the vertical (or indeed in the general vicinity of it), I would have been onside from the start. BTV is usually a lack of strength and a stage of training, in most educated circles. See sawing and general abuse of contact is a result a lack of education, understanding and common sense and it makes me want to mash the rider's face into a blender...
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Me too...See-Sawing is always bad, never acceptable. BTV is not always bad, sometimes very necessary and a totally different issue IMO.

kate2323 said:
I;m not really trying to argue just love the debate....really think in the next few years we will see a more harmonious way forward for grassroots dressage ....free and light.... but all work in progress.... the btv is getting ridiculous now and the fact judges DO mark a "rounder " outline at low level dressage with the good marks.....this needs to change.
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I think in order to make such statements, one needs to really, deeply understand the differences in BTV by being able to look at the whole horse. Grassroots dressage is non existent to me. All horses, regardless of breeding, training and the unknown or Carl Hester type riders on their backs have to move up the very same ladder of progression. I would be far more inclined to give higher marks to a soft and supple horse that ducks occasionally behind or carries a little BTV than a horse who is on or above the vertical but braced, hollow and tense. The latter is far more detrimental in the long run.

Pigeon said:
I think BTV is too simplistic a term as well.

Here my horse is soft and through, but he is overbent.

Screen_shot_2014_08_20_at_18_27_41.jpg


Here is an older pic with his face on the vertical, but that is because he's bracing his lower neck.

pt1.jpg


Neither is perfect, but at this stage in his training (early, prelim level!!!) the first frame is healthier. If you look at his legs in the first pic, you can see they move as a pair. In the second pic, the front legs are hitting the ground before the hind, meaning he is on the forehand, despite being in a more upright outline. You can also see an arc from shoulders to poll in the first pic, the second photo he is broken at the 3rd. Lastly, in the first pic you can see that behind his saddle, his back is lifted. In the second photo, there is a dip, meaning he is not working through his back. I think the head isn't the most important thing to look at!

I do think the emphasis on a horse being 'in an outline' is detrimental at the lower levels, because you get heads cranked in, and it is common!! But I have definitely seen a move towards a more holistic approach in the last year or so.
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First picture shows harmony, suppleness and relaxation. Not perfect, but far better than the second photo which you have explained well enough already. Yes, BTV is far too simplistic!

kate2323 said:
in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
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It is far from classically correct for any horse to be working poll high through the early stages of training. I don't expect to start seeing truly poll high head carriage until Elementary/Medium level...you just can't expect it until the horse is developed, balanced and strong enough to create that frame in self carriage. The second picture is so far from correct that I'm afraid you thinking it is is exposing a lack of genuine knowledge about the motion of a horse. Being on the bit, above the bit or behind the bit has very very little to do with the head. It also has very little to do with the hind end in a lot of cases as well...it has everything to do with a horses back and the second picture shows that beautifully. The back is not correct so it doesn't matter what anything else looks like. I judge would see that and mark the second picture far worse than the first.
 
kate2323 said:
yes I agree...you have to really look at the whole horse...have just spent all afternoon with a Dutch trainer talking out BTV, " up" and the correct muscles we need to develop... there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....
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Again, and I am only saying these things as it genuinely sounds like you want to learn...I'm really not having a go...just pointing out as plainly as I can..."UP" has very little to do with the head and neck. It also has very little to do with the shouders. It is in the back. If the head and neck are "up" but the back is not correct, again, not good for the horse and not going to create a correct picture. As for advice on correct training...be careful which Dutch trainers you take advice from. There are obviously exceptions, but the Dutch aren't famed for their "correct" training of dressage horses.

Pigeon said:
"But he is more classically correct than in the second picture." In the second picture he is in a false frame, and broken at the third, so his poll isn't actually the highest point! Which unfortunately is super easy to do, especially with a snakey thoroughbred neck :) He is not strong enough yet to carry himself so that his poll is the highest point, but he is still lifting through his back and arcing his neck. He can do it for about half a circle, or the long side of the arena, and then gets too tired and has to stretch.
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And that is how it is done. Bit by bit and with patience.

Moomin1 said:
You cannot just expect a horse to be 'classically correct' immediately. It takes a lot of hard work and a long time. The first pic shows a horse who is working through well and despite being slightly btv is on the right track to becoming strong enough and supple enough to lift up at the poll. You can't expect it to happen overnight.
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Absolutely...If you expect a horse to hold a poll high frame all of the time, you are doing it a great disservice. Each head carriage/frame works different muscles and it is detrimental to the horse to force those muscles to work constantly. It is far better to allow periods of training where the frame changes regularly so as not to fatigue any set of muscles.

Pigeon said:
I think a lot of this is because directives are so hazy at prelim level.

You get horses that should really be at novice or above competing at prelim, and others start to feel they need to be asking for an advanced frame when really at that stage, straightness, rhythm, relaxation and an element of responsiveness are all you need. That's assuming the levels of competing reflect the stages of training a dressage horse, which I'm not so sure is strictly true.
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They should....they don't always :(

Prince33Sp4rkle said:
there are too many people who dont understand how to develop a horse from prelim to GP out there spouting nonsense on the internet........

its deemed politically incorrect to say so but horses have to be submissive to the hand in the same way they are submissive to the leg-you touch and something should damn well happen. I see a lot of klassical nonsense telling you that any horse poking its nose forward is reaching for the contact but its fairly obvious from the tight back and braced neck that if the rider closed the hand the horse would either yaw and brace in the mouth, or hollow completely and invert.

to make a horses supple and strong enough to move in self carriage you gradually teach the horse to move its body around, each section, each mucle independently until you can alter the bend, the flexion, the frame, the gear, the lateral direction, one at a time, without it impacting on anything else-thats self carriage, not being able to throw the reins at its ears and have it stay in the same stuck frame!
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Excellent, excellent post!!!

kate2323 said:
thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
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I don't think that was a lecture...I think that was a highly experienced rider explaining something in a very simple and understandable way.

I think it is a gross erroneous generalisation to say that no-one seems to know the correct way to train. Many, many people do. The trick is being able to see past the picture and understand the motion.

PolarSkye said:
This. The thing about dressage is that it's supposed to demonstrate the scales of training - so horses at Prelim shouldn't have to demonstrate the incredible balance, strength, suppleness and self carriage being demonstrated at Grand Prix (to horribly over-simplify things). Some horses DO duck behind the vertical because they are naturally "curling up" due to weakness rather than being hauled in in front by the rider - mine included at times . . . at Prelim (and even Nov and Ele) it's simply an indicator of where they are in the scales of training/fitness/strength. A photograph in H&H (or anywhere else for that matter) is a moment in time . . . and is often dependant on the eye of the photographer/editor rather than the judge. If I believed, for a second, that horses up and down the country did entire (Prelim/Nov and Ele) tests with their chins touching their chests, I'd be agreeing with you - but I don't. Nor do I believe that judges either condone or don't mark down horses going incorrectly - not the (professional) judges I know and write for.

P
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Agreed.


Prince33Sp4rkle said:
can i ask how many horses you have trained to GP and what level you have competed up to? not because i think you have to have trained to GP to be able to comment, but because once you have done it you will realise how training is not fluid, things come and go, as one thing improves something else goes to rat-****, and that BTV is not the be all and end all.

once you have actually been on that journey, you will understand how silly you sound now.
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I'll go further than that...sometimes BTV can be a very very beneficial thing to the horse. Another good post :)

ihatework said:
And just to add to OP ...
You can get you picture in H&H for, as an example, a win at 70%.

What does 70% equate to? 'Fairly good'. That means there is a decent amount of room for improvement. All horses will have strengths and weaknesses, but the result at a competition just means that you were better than the other combinations entered that day. It doesn't mean perfection.

ETA - OP what level have you ridden to? Would you be willing to put your money where your mouth is an post a video of you riding a horse that you deem to be correctly trained for their age/level?
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Excellent post!

Prince33Sp4rkle said:
did him the world of good to be made to keep going and lovely judge even marked the bits we did in a vaguely forward fashion. he's never been that bad again so it obviously made him realise im as bloody minded as he is!
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I wanted to end on this...because this is what training is all about when you are the one actually doing it. Good horses aren't born trained. They are developed over time by riders that are willing to put in the work, get the coaching, spend the hours and bleed teh sweat and stick at it when horses....as they invariably always do...have other ideas. It's not about the end goal...it can't be as the overwhelmingly vast majority of horses will not reach GP level. It is about the journey and PS & NM's horses are well on their way to getting there because they are doing it properly.

BTV is not always bad. It is sometimes very beneficial and judging a horse and its rider by the angle of the head alone is a very naive, foolish and hurtful thing to do.

OP...use the search function and look for posts about a horse called Armas. You will see that even older horses sometimes have a very long way to go. Riders have to sometimes spend years undoing the bad work of others. Horses develop their own evasions and sometimes, actively riding a horse BTV can be the only way to encourage it to accept the contact and learn to take it forwards.

Finally, I will go out on a bit of a limb. I can honestly say, without exception, that every horse I have ever trained that has been at Elementary level or below has become more supple, more relaxed and actually learned how to lift through the back and carry itself by being allowed to dip BTV in a open frame. It frees the shoulder, releases the trapezius muscles and allows the back to lift. In my honest opinion, a horse that was never allowed to dip behind would be far worse off than a horse that was.
 
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