dressage...behind the vertical

kate2323 - I'll put my money where my mouth is. This is Fly a few years back. New saddle that we were both getting used to and a new bit for her, so very very soft hands from me and as my entire training principal centres around listening to the horse underneath me, not adhering to any specific method...I let her find her own place. She dips below, rises above, carries on, dips below again and so on. The movement through her back only become tense when her head is up...never becoming tense when she dips btv.

My philosophy on training a horse correctly is to allow a horse enough freedom to tell me what their favoured way of going is and listening to their reaction as I try different things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TST_beCSPBU&list=UUqB02AeCTicSi5hlULsPPpA
 
Also, if you're interested OP...I do like to go and watch competitions occasionally, so if you are also in the Gloucester area, I would be more than happy to meet you at one and explain what I am seeing....not because I think you should agree with me, but because I think it is crucial to learn as many different views/opinions etc. as possible in order that one can form independent ideas on the matter at hand.

The offer is there, just let me know.
 
_GG_ said:
Also, if you're interested OP...I do like to go and watch competitions occasionally, so if you are also in the Gloucester area, I would be more than happy to meet you at one and explain what I am seeing....not because I think you should agree with me, but because I think it is crucial to learn as many different views/opinions etc. as possible in order that one can form independent ideas on the matter at hand.

The offer is there, just let me know.
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If I was closer I would meet you so you could explain what im supposed to be seeing! Show jumping was so much easier lol!
 
GG, I have a lot of respect for you as a poster, but I think OP has an interesting point. If you (or anyone) can give me a reason why ldr/rollkur/whatever is a valid training method or beneficial to the horse during training I'd be interested to hear it, thanks :)
 
Btv is not rollkur though, it can be created by the rider pulling the horse is of course but btv can just be a lack of confidence or balance.
 
charlie76 said:
Btv is not rollkur though, it can be created by the rider pulling the horse is of course but btv can just be a lack of confidence or balance.
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I get that :) it can also be an evasion. Horses by weight of head and neck generally balance on the forehand (especially youngsters), but the question is what is its validity as a training method?
 
doriangrey said:
GG, I have a lot of respect for you as a poster, but I think OP has an interesting point. If you (or anyone) can give me a reason why ldr/rollkur/whatever is a valid training method or beneficial to the horse during training I'd be interested to hear it, thanks :)
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BTV is totally different to LDR/Rollkur....the likes of which I detest vehemently. BTV can, as I have said numerous times in this thread be through force, through see-sawing of the hands and through incorrect training, but the OP is talking about horses from Prelim level up...so a great deal of those horses will be young/green/only part way through progression up the training scale. None are born with the ability to work in a poll high competition frame...they get there through a lot of hard work by the riders and sometimes, in order to cope with working correctly through the back and hind, a young/green/not yet fully muscled up horse will occasionally dip behind the vertical, for a moment or for a while...just as we like to take a break from a certain set of exercises when in the gym...it would be painful and detrimental to keep doing the same thing constantly until our strength and technique could cope with it.

So, I'm not saying btv is right....I am saying that it is not always wrong. BTV I reiterate as being very different to Rollkur. For a definition, BTV "can" be through heavy hands, but rollkur is always produced with force and is always bad IMO. BTV can be a place a horse puts itself and it's not actually detrimental to a horses physiology. So, so long as a horse being BTV is not there through poor riding, I can look at the rest of the horse and understand.

Hope that makes sense :)
 
_GG_ said:
BTV is totally different to LDR/Rollkur....the likes of which I detest vehemently. BTV can, as I have said numerous times in this thread be through force, through see-sawing of the hands and through incorrect training, but the OP is talking about horses from Prelim level up...so a great deal of those horses will be young/green/only part way through progression up the training scale. None are born with the ability to work in a poll high competition frame...they get there through a lot of hard work by the riders and sometimes, in order to cope with working correctly through the back and hind, a young/green/not yet fully muscled up horse will occasionally dip behind the vertical, for a moment or for a while...just as we like to take a break from a certain set of exercises when in the gym...it would be painful and detrimental to keep doing the same thing constantly until our strength and technique could cope with it.

So, I'm not saying btv is right....I am saying that it is not always wrong. BTV I reiterate as being very different to Rollkur. For a definition, BTV "can" be through heavy hands, but rollkur is always produced with force and is always bad IMO. BTV can be a place a horse puts itself and it's not actually detrimental to a horses physiology. So, so long as a horse being BTV is not there through poor riding, I can look at the rest of the horse and understand.

Hope that makes sense :)
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That makes perfect sense, thanks GG :)
 
Kit-kat said:
you need to raise your hands alot higher..sit up straight and have a better self carriage then your horse might have a chance to sit on his backside, and raise his head....
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If that's aimed at me, dear, I didn't ask for your opinion. :)
 
By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...

10347181_240205779521809_8913922106026037937_n.png
 
doriangrey said:
That makes perfect sense, thanks GG :)
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Anytime!

I have just got into bed and thought of a better, more concise way of putting it too which may help the op.


If one is to condemn Rollkur and the use of force on a horse as it removes a horse's liberty, then one must also condemn the act of denying a horse the liberty to go behind the vertical when it so wishes.

Training is with the aim of creating harmony between horse and rider...harmony doesn't come from the removal of liberty...it comes from the allowance for it and understanding of it :)

On another note, I think Squirrel has had a wee somewhere in our bedroom...no early night for me then!!!
 
_GG_ said:
I just tried to *like* that, lol
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Haha you can always "like" it on facebook, 'cos I'm shameless and put everything up for the world to judge :p But yes, clearly this nice IFOV is a better pic than the BTV ones upthread?
 
JFTD said:
Haha you can always "like" it on facebook, 'cos I'm shameless and put everything up for the world to judge :p But yes, clearly this nice IFOV is a better pic than the BTV ones upthread?
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I think the picture of a happy horse in a lovely frame with a loose curb rein in your Sig says it all :)
 
_GG_ said:
I think the picture of a happy horse in a lovely frame with a loose curb rein in your Sig says it all :)
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I can't imagine what happened there. I'm usually too busy sawing him onto the bit for him to be happy. I feel like I've failed in that photo...
 
JFTD said:
Haha you can always "like" it on facebook, 'cos I'm shameless and put everything up for the world to judge :p But yes, clearly this nice IFOV is a better pic than the BTV ones upthread?
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Tbh, I don't think that is relevant because a rear is about as much behind the vertical as you can get in terms of evasion? I still think OP had a valid point and was talking more about horses heads being pulled in rather than evading the bit or being out of balance but I might be reading too much into it. I do agree that hollow, nose in the air is as much of an evasion but that's another topic. Still a very interesting thread.

ETA - understand that all pics are a 'moment' in time :)
 
doriangrey said:
Tbh, I don't think that is relevant because a rear is about as much behind the vertical as you can get in terms of evasion?
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Er, nope, he's definitely not behind the vertical. He's also in a nice "uphill" balance and his poll's the highest point. We're ticking all the OP's boxes...
 
JFTD said:
put your head right in


out



shake it all about
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Loved this, and is typical of a horse in training. Being supple enough to be in out and shaking it all about, whilst trying to develop the strength and balance should not be something which is classed as the rider being evil putting the horse BTV!

Kit-kat said:
you need to raise your hands alot higher..sit up straight and have a better self carriage then your horse might have a chance to sit on his backside, and raise his head....
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How rude. JFTD can work this breed far better than the vast majority could.

Kit-Kat and kate2323 you forgot to log out your alt account. But that aside, Please do show us how you do it :)


JFTD said:
By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...

10347181_240205779521809_8913922106026037937_n.png
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Sorry, you are very much Behind the horizontal!
 
kate2323 said:
do you not think we all need to get back to the actual point of my initial debate and debate why SO many horses from prelim upwards are ridden with heads pulled in so they are obviously btv? This is incorrect but continues to seen as the norm ...
look at any h and h and bd pix and you will see ( interestingly Jane Kidd who I think is wonderful points out a horse in btv in her article on self carriage) .... debate this please and please stop getting so personal ...
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I don't think you are looking for debate - that implies give and take/ebb and flow in the discussion - I think you are looking for an argument and are immovable in your own beliefs.

I have already said that I don't agree with your position (and why) - and GG, JFTD, AlexHyde and others have expanded and elucidated brilliantly.

Not sure what else there is to "debate" really.

P

P.S. Oh, and I also believe you were unnecessarily personal and rude to JFTD and PS and should apologize.
 
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If a rear is asked for it can't be a btv evasion as it's not an evasion - nice to see he can manage to sit on his bum and raise his poll even with you on him Jftd :p
 
Moomin1 said:
You see all sorts of training issues at dressage comps, not just btv. Most of the unaffiliated comps around where I am the standard is really poor, with horses hurried/rushed/unbalanced/noses poking/outward bend, yet they get scored highly. I don't think any of those issues are any less potentially damaging or uncomfortable for the horse than being btv tbh.
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Genuine question here. Should all faults be penalised equally in stressage?
We all know BTV, poking nose, rushing, incorrect bend are wrong; but should they be viewed as euqally wrong?
Should a horse dropping momentarily BTV due to lack of balance be penalised as harshly as one who is BTV because he is being held in a vice like grip?
Is the rider who rides along with washing line reins and no contact at all as incorrect as the rider who hangs on for grim death?
Is sustained (i.e not momentary) nose poking worse than sustained BTV?
And should it be illegal to compete without bling and to train without matchy matchy?
 
chiming in late and i dont think i have much more to add. My original comment re self carriage stands but im going to make one last politically incorrect statement:

Working a horse deep encourages submission in the jaw,poll,neck and back. Once you have those areas butter soft you can access the hind leg a lot easier, once you have submission to all aids you can mould the horse move it around, bend it shape and gradually work the other muscles until they too are butter soft and elastic.

for some reason a lot of people, trainers included,are scared to say that submission is important and using the hand is as important as the leg but i promise you, if the top trainers were a bit more honest in public, we wouldnt have this mis-guided idea that riding forward in to a fixed IFV outline will suddenly create a GP horse. It wont, and the top guys know that, but are possibly afraid to say for fear that the less educated riders will then ride TOTALLY off the hand.

thank you for all the support lovely people of HHO.

to the OP-im no expert, no international GP rider(yet), and i dont know everthing. But the bread and butter of what i do is re-training horses deemed a write off, either mentally of physically buggered, and often exhibiting quite extreme behaviour.
My own horse reared and reared and reared to the point of being labelled dangerous as a 4yo. He deposited god knows how many riders during his race training. 5 years down the line he's competing at inter 1 and hopefully being aimed at Hartpury CDI at small tour in 2015.How many ex racers do you know doing that?
im not god, but i know a fair bit. I dont really have to justify myself to you but dont tell me i dont know how to train a horse, if theres one thing i can do, its take an obstinate write off and make it a useful horse again.
I train with 3 international GP riders so i know what it takes to get to the top too.

im still waiting to hear exactly what you do.........
 
Way out of my depth here and probably not related that much to how the thread has progressed but I watched the dressage section of a PC junior one day event and was v disappointed to see a pony clearly behind the vertical and it's back end somewhere on the xc course, being ridden very strong handedly by too small a rider struggling to keep it contained by see sawing her hands win their section over neat, accurate tests with ponies who were in front of the vertical. And this was 10 yr olds competing - what lesson does that teach them!?! Certainly not the one I have been drumming into my child!
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
for some reason a lot of people, trainers included,are scared to say that submission is important and using the hand is as important as the leg but i promise you, if the top trainers were a bit more honest in public, we wouldnt have this mis-guided idea that riding forward in to a fixed IFV outline will suddenly create a GP horse. It wont, and the top guys know that, but are possibly afraid to say for fear that the less educated riders will then ride TOTALLY off the hand.
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Totally agree with this statement. As many know, I'm on a journey of discovery in to pure dressage. Trained by both a list 3 and list 1 judge. In following their direction I really thought I was ruining Spring as what I was been asked to do conflicted with most of the info I read and heard. Put my trust in them and stuck with it and now all my fears / concerns are a distant memory. Horse has come out the other side a much better ride. :)
I really shouldn't be surprised as I know from experience what is talked about publicly on training showjumpers is very different to the reality.
It is a shame that people generally aren't up front on all that needs to happen at times.

PS - you can come teach me anytime. Not ex racehorse but 7/8 TB is near enough ;)
 
doriangrey said:
I'm just hoping that 'Squirrel' is GG's cat :D
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ester said:
Nope! Tho thankfully not her OH ;)
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Ester knows....Squirrel is our Jack Russell Terrier who, sometimes gets a little too worked up for his own good :)

CobsCanDo said:
Genuine question here. Should all faults be penalised equally in stressage?
We all know BTV, poking nose, rushing, incorrect bend are wrong; but should they be viewed as euqally wrong?
Should a horse dropping momentarily BTV due to lack of balance be penalised as harshly as one who is BTV because he is being held in a vice like grip?
Is the rider who rides along with washing line reins and no contact at all as incorrect as the rider who hangs on for grim death?
Is sustained (i.e not momentary) nose poking worse than sustained BTV?
And should it be illegal to compete without bling and to train without matchy matchy?
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No commenting on the irrelevant bling/matchy matchy comment but for the rest...harsher penalties are given when a horse is pulled btv as opposed to being there through a valid reason. It is a rider fault so the marks are deducted from the rider collectives as well as the specific sections of the test. Overall, the combination will be marked more harshly than a combination where there is a valid reason for a horse to be btv.

I am genuinely of the belief that btv is one of the lesser issues in those that you have listed. A horse btv can still be light and working correctly through the back...a horse that is poking its nose out is hollow in the back, therefore carrying the weight of the rider through the spine which is extremely detrimental...much more so than the total lack of any physical detriment from being a little btv. Remembering we are talking btv here, not rollkur, which is a whole different beast.

Prince33Sp4rkle said:
chiming in late and i dont think i have much more to add. My original comment re self carriage stands but im going to make one last politically incorrect statement:

Working a horse deep encourages submission in the jaw,poll,neck and back. Once you have those areas butter soft you can access the hind leg a lot easier, once you have submission to all aids you can mould the horse move it around, bend it shape and gradually work the other muscles until they too are butter soft and elastic.

for some reason a lot of people, trainers included,are scared to say that submission is important and using the hand is as important as the leg but i promise you, if the top trainers were a bit more honest in public, we wouldnt have this mis-guided idea that riding forward in to a fixed IFV outline will suddenly create a GP horse. It wont, and the top guys know that, but are possibly afraid to say for fear that the less educated riders will then ride TOTALLY off the hand.

thank you for all the support lovely people of HHO.

to the OP-im no expert, no international GP rider(yet), and i dont know everthing. But the bread and butter of what i do is re-training horses deemed a write off, either mentally of physically buggered, and often exhibiting quite extreme behaviour.
My own horse reared and reared and reared to the point of being labelled dangerous as a 4yo. He deposited god knows how many riders during his race training. 5 years down the line he's competing at inter 1 and hopefully being aimed at Hartpury CDI at small tour in 2015.How many ex racers do you know doing that?
im not god, but i know a fair bit. I dont really have to justify myself to you but dont tell me i dont know how to train a horse, if theres one thing i can do, its take an obstinate write off and make it a useful horse again.
I train with 3 international GP riders so i know what it takes to get to the top too.

im still waiting to hear exactly what you do.........
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I've gone into that before...I think we both did on the Armas threads and IIRC there were many people who just could not understand the concept that it is beneficial to the horse in the long run. I think we got flamed for saying we knew more than others just because we had done it, when in actual fact, that is very true. Anyone who wants to say that a horse should never be btv will not say that after training a horse from backing through to working level. I go back to my point about liberty....it is just as bad to deny a horse the option to hold itself where it wants to as it is to pull it where you want it.

What PS is talking about rearding submission does not translate in any way to pulling a horse down. Go on youtube and watch Carl Hester demos...he is widely regarded as one of the best, most correct dressage trainers in the world, and guess what...he trains horses to work long and low (which again is very different to LDR). It's done by asking and to ask, a rider uses all aids, seat, legs AND hands, none with force, but all with the horses benefit in mind, because making a horse supple and relaxed will always do it good and never do it harm.

You didn't need to justify yourself PS...those who understand know just the success you are having and I don't define success by ribbons, I define it by the progression of a horse and rider and the progress you have made speaks volumes!
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
chiming in late and i dont think i have much more to add. My original comment re self carriage stands but im going to make one last politically incorrect statement:

Working a horse deep encourages submission in the jaw,poll,neck and back. Once you have those areas butter soft you can access the hind leg a lot easier, once you have submission to all aids you can mould the horse move it around, bend it shape and gradually work the other muscles until they too are butter soft and elastic.

for some reason a lot of people, trainers included,are scared to say that submission is important and using the hand is as important as the leg but i promise you, if the top trainers were a bit more honest in public, we wouldnt have this mis-guided idea that riding forward in to a fixed IFV outline will suddenly create a GP horse. It wont, and the top guys know that, but are possibly afraid to say for fear that the less educated riders will then ride TOTALLY off the hand.

thank you for all the support lovely people of HHO.

to the OP-im no expert, no international GP rider(yet), and i dont know everthing. But the bread and butter of what i do is re-training horses deemed a write off, either mentally of physically buggered, and often exhibiting quite extreme behaviour.
My own horse reared and reared and reared to the point of being labelled dangerous as a 4yo. He deposited god knows how many riders during his race training. 5 years down the line he's competing at inter 1 and hopefully being aimed at Hartpury CDI at small tour in 2015.How many ex racers do you know doing that?
im not god, but i know a fair bit. I dont really have to justify myself to you but dont tell me i dont know how to train a horse, if theres one thing i can do, its take an obstinate write off and make it a useful horse again.
I train with 3 international GP riders so i know what it takes to get to the top too.

im still waiting to hear exactly what you do.........
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Well said - as a complete novice who bought a young horse I spent ages ensuring I was "light in the hand" i.e. completely ineffective with the horse trotting round doing what he liked and me thinking that if we did enough circles and put enough leg on to get some engine that we would eventually get outline. 2 years of going the wrong way later I met my instructor who has taught me about feel, submission and how to use my hands (semi!)effectively. I'm not talking hauling into an outline, but i am talking about showing the horse what is expected and training them to accept and yield to the hand. I hate people preaching about "lightness and a light contact and all you need to do is ride forwards and have a light contact and miraculously your horse will understand, accept and float round like some PSG horse" to numptys like me when I was starting out I read light as "no contact" and failed miserably. Now we get moments of lightness and we know what feel we're aiming for - it's not nothing in the hand, it's contained energy, elastic and suppleness.
 
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