dressage...behind the vertical

[Goldenstar]

I will be even more politically incorrect that horses can be worked LDR without force and it has a place in developing some horses in some situations .
I feel you just have to have an open mind with training
Experience has taught me to be very suspicious of people who come at it from the moral high ground side .

 

[_GG_]

I will be even more politically incorrect that horses can be worked LDR without force and it has a place in developing some horses in some situations .
I feel you just have to have an open mind with training
Experience has taught me to be very suspicious of people who come at it from the moral high ground side .

Agreed.

I have long held the belief that anyone who holds a firm belief in a specific way of doing things is doing a great disservice to horses and themselves. We should never close our minds or stop learning.

And when I say learning...I don't mean by listening to people. I mean by listening to our horses. Forget what a person on the ground is saying and actually listen to your horse and you can't go far wrong.

 

[_GG_]

Well said - as a complete novice who bought a young horse I spent ages ensuring I was "light in the hand" i.e. completely ineffective with the horse trotting round doing what he liked and me thinking that if we did enough circles and put enough leg on to get some engine that we would eventually get outline. 2 years of going the wrong way later I met my instructor who has taught me about feel, submission and how to use my hands (semi!)effectively. I'm not talking hauling into an outline, but i am talking about showing the horse what is expected and training them to accept and yield to the hand. I hate people preaching about "lightness and a light contact and all you need to do is ride forwards and have a light contact and miraculously your horse will understand, accept and float round like some PSG horse" to numptys like me when I was starting out I read light as "no contact" and failed miserably. Now we get moments of lightness and we know what feel we're aiming for - it's not nothing in the hand, it's contained energy, elastic and suppleness.

You have just perfectly described a stage we all go through before that lightbulb moment.

I look at it this way....a horse cannot accept the contact if you don't actually give it one.

Also, it doesn't matter how much impulsion you create from behind....if you don't have a contact, it will simply get lost through the front.

 

[humblepie]

I haven't joined in on this due to a general lack of knowledge of anything dressage but current ex racehorse's natural default position was very BTV or otherwise known as overbent.

GG you may not have seen it but I sent you a PM if you were around Hunters way end of the month and fancied a meet up - come and see the horse in action doing his first elementary and any wisdom would be gratefully accepted. Can offer coffee tea or cake!

 

[_GG_]

I haven't joined in on this due to a general lack of knowledge of anything dressage but current ex racehorse's natural default position was very BTV or otherwise known as overbent.

GG you may not have seen it but I sent you a PM if you were around Hunters way end of the month and fancied a meet up - come and see the horse in action doing his first elementary and any wisdom would be gratefully accepted. Can offer coffee tea or cake!

I will go and check my inbox, I normally respond to PMs straight away

I will see what I can arrange

 

[_GG_]

I just thought as well....whilst the discussion is on contact and using the hands correctly...this is what I say when trying to explain it...

"imagine you are stopped in traffic in your car when going up a steep hill. When you move off, you need to use enough acceleration to create the power to move up the hill, but if you let the clutch go too early, all of that power will be lost and you will stall. Imagine your seat and legs are the accelerator, asking the horse for power and your hands are the clutch...in charge of controlling/containing it so that it doesn't just get lost."

No idea if that will help anyone here, but it is usually a lightbulb moment when I am teaching people how to bring a horse together. Not push with the leg, pull with the hand....but a balance on containment.

 

[_GG_]

I haven't joined in on this due to a general lack of knowledge of anything dressage but current ex racehorse's natural default position was very BTV or otherwise known as overbent.

GG you may not have seen it but I sent you a PM if you were around Hunters way end of the month and fancied a meet up - come and see the horse in action doing his first elementary and any wisdom would be gratefully accepted. Can offer coffee tea or cake!

I'd love to! I'll check with Dan that we have nothing on and I'll have to ride before I come, but I can't see why I can't come along xx

 

[Goldenstar]

You have just perfectly described a stage we all go through before that lightbulb moment.

I look at it this way....a horse cannot accept the contact if you don't actually give it one.

Also, it doesn't matter how much impulsion you create from behind....if you don't have a contact, it will simply get lost through the front.

I too struggled with this when I started taking dressage seriously , contact does come magically you have to be able to show the horse the way and contact is more than just the mouth , I was lucky I had access to great GP schoolmasters who showed me the way it's much easier that way
The second stage is when you realise you can only ride forwards as much as the horse stage of training will allow or believe or not they go BTV or collapse on the forehand or poke their noses or go crooked or lots of things .
If you are always seeking harmony while considering the training scales you and horse find the way .

 

[BobbyMondeo]

I just thought as well....whilst the discussion is on contact and using the hands correctly...this is what I say when trying to explain it...

"imagine you are stopped in traffic in your car when going up a steep hill. When you move off, you need to use enough acceleration to create the power to move up the hill, but if you let the clutch go too early, all of that power will be lost and you will stall. Imagine your seat and legs are the accelerator, asking the horse for power and your hands are the clutch...in charge of controlling/containing it so that it doesn't just get lost."

No idea if that will help anyone here, but it is usually a lightbulb moment when I am teaching people how to bring a horse together. Not push with the leg, pull with the hand....but a balance on containment.

Wish someone had explained it like that to me when i first got my horse! Makes total sense and if i was struggling to undertand contact i would be having a light bulb moment right now.

I see it all the time people creating all this lovely engery but they are too scared to touch the bit for fear of being accusing of see-sawing or pulling the horse round and its quite sad that through either misinterpretation of terms or general lack of knowledge many horses and riders just do not reach their full potential.

 

[chestnut cob]

I will be even more politically incorrect that horses can be worked LDR without force and it has a place in developing some horses in some situations .
I feel you just have to have an open mind with training
Experience has taught me to be very suspicious of people who come at it from the moral high ground side .

You have just perfectly described a stage we all go through before that lightbulb moment.

I look at it this way....a horse cannot accept the contact if you don't actually give it one.

Also, it doesn't matter how much impulsion you create from behind....if you don't have a contact, it will simply get lost through the front.

Agree 100% with both of these posts. A few years ago I had a lot of "classical" lessons with a "classical" trainer who was very much of the opinion that horses should go everywhere on a long rein, rider should never pick up a contact and that the horse would miraculously put itself on the bit, up and out, if you just put enough leg on and did enough lateral work. I subscribed to this philosophy absolutely and completely so when I got my young(ish) horse, very green 5yo who had only hunted and seen a few coloured poles, nothing else, this is what I tried with him. What I ended up with was a very angry 6yo who had no idea what was expected of him, was completely confused and by letting him do basically whatever the hell he liked, was completely upside down and incorrectly muscled. Like Walrus, I'd also believed the myth of horses just knowing how to go around like SRS horses.

Eventually I moved to my current yard and handed horse over to the YO to fix. He had to be taught to yield to the contact and submission work like GS talks about above was a big part of it. He is a typical big pony type - short, thick neck which he blocks hard and uses against you. He needed to be worked LDR to get control of that neck and soften it. Much like in Pigeon's earlier picture post, if he worked IFV he braced the underneath of his neck and was stiff and stilted. LDR was a part of his training for a period of time because without softening the neck and front of the horse, we couldn't get any control. We couldn't work him correctly long and low because he would just b*gger off. He took a lot of re-schooling and re-teaching. Now, he has learned how to slow down and take more correct steps instead of rushing off, he has softened his neck (the HUGE muscle underneath has almost disappeared, and it's taken 18 months to get rid of that), softened over his back and is generally far more rideable. In fact when I schooled last night, I was actually able to work on a circle in trot riding him more "up" for a few strides then properly L&L for a few, and back up again. This is a huge step forwards for him. We are only competing Prelim (I'd say he's schooling Nov, and he scores v well at Prelim/ BE80/ UA 90s) but he is now consistently in what I would say is a correct Prelim frame. He is consistent in the contact, softer over his back, swinging along, his paces are becoming more expressive, and now I can put my leg on and contain it in front. Last night actually I finally realised what this elastic contact is that my teacher keeps telling me to aim for

Sorry, bit of a rambling post but really just trying to illustrate that you can't be totally blinkered about training methods. I thought I was totally right in my beliefs but have had to change them and learn that there are other ways of doing it, and not every horse will respond to the way you think it should be done.

 

[chestnut cob]

I just thought as well....whilst the discussion is on contact and using the hands correctly...this is what I say when trying to explain it...

"imagine you are stopped in traffic in your car when going up a steep hill. When you move off, you need to use enough acceleration to create the power to move up the hill, but if you let the clutch go too early, all of that power will be lost and you will stall. Imagine your seat and legs are the accelerator, asking the horse for power and your hands are the clutch...in charge of controlling/containing it so that it doesn't just get lost."

No idea if that will help anyone here, but it is usually a lightbulb moment when I am teaching people how to bring a horse together. Not push with the leg, pull with the hand....but a balance on containment.

Nevermind going to AM DR, I might just have to come and stay with you for a few days' lessons!

 

[Walrus]

Agree 100% with both of these posts. A few years ago I had a lot of "classical" lessons with a "classical" trainer who was very much of the opinion that horses should go everywhere on a long rein, rider should never pick up a contact and that the horse would miraculously put itself on the bit, up and out, if you just put enough leg on and did enough lateral work. I subscribed to this philosophy absolutely and completely so when I got my young(ish) horse, very green 5yo who had only hunted and seen a few coloured poles, nothing else, this is what I tried with him. What I ended up with was a very angry 6yo who had no idea what was expected of him, was completely confused and by letting him do basically whatever the hell he liked, was completely upside down and incorrectly muscled. Like Walrus, I'd also believed the myth of horses just knowing how to go around like SRS horses.

Eventually I moved to my current yard and handed horse over to the YO to fix. He had to be taught to yield to the contact and submission work like GS talks about above was a big part of it. He is a typical big pony type - short, thick neck which he blocks hard and uses against you. He needed to be worked LDR to get control of that neck and soften it. Much like in Pigeon's earlier picture post, if he worked IFV he braced the underneath of his neck and was stiff and stilted. LDR was a part of his training for a period of time because without softening the neck and front of the horse, we couldn't get any control. We couldn't work him correctly long and low because he would just b*gger off. He took a lot of re-schooling and re-teaching. Now, he has learned how to slow down and take more correct steps instead of rushing off, he has softened his neck (the HUGE muscle underneath has almost disappeared, and it's taken 18 months to get rid of that), softened over his back and is generally far more rideable. In fact when I schooled last night, I was actually able to work on a circle in trot riding him more "up" for a few strides then properly L&L for a few, and back up again. This is a huge step forwards for him. We are only competing Prelim (I'd say he's schooling Nov, and he scores v well at Prelim/ BE80/ UA 90s) but he is now consistently in what I would say is a correct Prelim frame. He is consistent in the contact, softer over his back, swinging along, his paces are becoming more expressive, and now I can put my leg on and contain it in front. Last night actually I finally realised what this elastic contact is that my teacher keeps telling me to aim for

Sorry, bit of a rambling post but really just trying to illustrate that you can't be totally blinkered about training methods. I thought I was totally right in my beliefs but have had to change them and learn that there are other ways of doing it, and not every horse will respond to the way you think it should be done.

You could have been writing our story in this post! It took us 2 years to get rid of a huge muscle under my horse's neck. Mine is a big pony (13.1hh fell) and getting flexibility, yield and suppleness in the neck is like the quest for the holy grail!!

 

[humblepie]

GG - Cool. I will let you know when we get the times next week and if you can great.

 

[Goldenstar]

I haven't joined in on this due to a general lack of knowledge of anything dressage but current ex racehorse's natural default position was very BTV or otherwise known as overbent.

GG you may not have seen it but I sent you a PM if you were around Hunters way end of the month and fancied a meet up - come and see the horse in action doing his first elementary and any wisdom would be gratefully accepted. Can offer coffee tea or cake!

my horse is a TB ,watch horses going down to the start at the races and it helps you understand why your thinks control type situation and offers this .
I would advise you find a trainer ( often event trainers are used to reschooling TBs ) who works with horses that have come out of racing training .
They are great fun to work with TBs, so rewarding .

 

[chestnut cob]

You could have been writing our story in this post! It took us 2 years to get rid of a huge muscle under my horse's neck. Mine is a big pony (13.1hh fell) and getting flexibility, yield and suppleness in the neck is like the quest for the holy grail!!

Yep! And then combine that with mine's attitude of 'NO I won't I haven't had to so far so you can't make me' and you have an idea of where I started off

 

[Chirmapops]

Firstly, and I'm not sure if anyone's said this yet because I'll admit I have missed a few pages of the debate, but congrats to Pigeon for being brave enough to put the pictures of your horse up there to be critiqued. I think on the whole it's great to see so many people having a constructive discussion, just a shame there are those who think they "know best" and are unwilling to budge from their rather stiffly held view. I'm not sure I would be so brave as to invite that sort of criticism from people behind a computer keyboard.

Secondly, for those who are BD member or associate members, there is a BRILLIANT article by Jane Kidd in the new issue of the magazine about self carriage, the difference between carriage and a horse carrying itself without relying on the rider to prop it up, and the way a proper contact should feel (elastic, NOT featherlight and non-existent). Really fascinating, I think you can read it online if you sign up as an associate member, although I'm not sure.

 

[humblepie]

Hi Goldenstar - thanks. We have worked with him to develop his strength and he is a pleasure to work with. It was just interesting to me that he was so BTV though I agree that when you watch them go down to the start they are often like that - I watch a lot of racing and am always eyeing up the next champion show horse. It was just that my other ex racehorse (who got to HOYS in pure showing classes) was very much the other way and defaulted to giraffe if allowed to (!) so it was a different challenge to come across for me. My other ex racehorse never went on the bit in her life but jumped Foxhunter and Grade C but that is another story and not one for a dressage thread....

 

[_GG_]

Firstly, and I'm not sure if anyone's said this yet because I'll admit I have missed a few pages of the debate, but congrats to Pigeon for being brave enough to put the pictures of your horse up there to be critiqued. I think on the whole it's great to see so many people having a constructive discussion, just a shame there are those who think they "know best" and are unwilling to budge from their rather stiffly held view. I'm not sure I would be so brave as to invite that sort of criticism from people behind a computer keyboard.

Secondly, for those who are BD member or associate members, there is a BRILLIANT article by Jane Kidd in the new issue of the magazine about self carriage, the difference between carriage and a horse carrying itself without relying on the rider to prop it up, and the way a proper contact should feel (elastic, NOT featherlight and non-existent). Really fascinating, I think you can read it online if you sign up as an associate member, although I'm not sure.

Thank you for that. I'll share a video and a couple of pictures of a lovley horse, but one that, when going in a featherlight contact with his head on the vertical, is not engaged or working correctly at all. But with an, as you say, elastic contact, he works through far better.

This is him ridden by his them owner....she was very happy with his way of going...I was actually teaching her and explaining that his head in this position on a featherlight contact in no way meant that he was working correctly through his body.

Here is a picture of him with me riding. Short stirrups and a GP saddle because he has a tendency to buck when he's had a few days off, but it shows a similar head position, but a totally different picture in the body, back and engagement. There is still plenty of tension...but it shows a moment in time...

And here is the video from which the above still was taken. He's a horse that had been trained to Elementary level but then used in a riding school where he regularly just had his head pulled in. In the video, what I am trying to work on is maintaining a contact, but encouraging engagement...he dips behind occasionally and when he does, you will see me lift him out of this but not ride in a way that stops him actually doing. I want and need him to do it in order that I can teach him a different way. With him, it was a strength thing...he was not fit (neither was I) and so he found it hard to maintain any frame for any length of time. That's not to say you should stop asking as soon as they start to find it hard, you should find a balance between going past the comfortable but not so far as fatigue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WpQzNEl3w8&list=UUqB02AeCTicSi5hlULsPPpA

It's about progression. It's about listening to the horse you are riding and what makes them tick...not adhering to a plan to the detriment of the horse.

 

[FellOutOfFavour]

No commenting on the irrelevant bling/matchy matchy comment but for the rest...harsher penalties are given when a horse is pulled btv as opposed to being there through a valid reason. It is a rider fault so the marks are deducted from the rider collectives as well as the specific sections of the test. Overall, the combination will be marked more harshly than a combination where there is a valid reason for a horse to be btv.

I am genuinely of the belief that btv is one of the lesser issues in those that you have listed. A horse btv can still be light and working correctly through the back...a horse that is poking its nose out is hollow in the back, therefore carrying the weight of the rider through the spine which is extremely detrimental...much more so than the total lack of any physical detriment from being a little btv. Remembering we are talking btv here, not rollkur, which is a whole different beast. !

Thanks
The bit about bling was an attempt to lighten the mood...

 

[Pigeon]

Thanks Chirmapops I have a thick skin haha, three years of hanging out with a deranged tb has made sure of that

Oh contact was the worst thing for me to grasp. It took years. Years. I'm getting there now, I hope, but I still revert to loopy reins given half a chance!

Elastic is a good description, I describe the feel like play dough. Malleable. The sort of contact where you can half halt with one finger and it actually means something. If you have to move your hands you haven't enough contact!!

 

[JFTDWS]

How rude. JFTD can work this breed far better than the vast majority could.

Kit-Kat and kate2323 you forgot to log out your alt account. But that aside, Please do show us how you do it

Sorry, you are very much Behind the horizontal!

Lol. And thanks. Rubbish, of course, I'm not claiming to be an expert, even with highlands. I'm not, by a long way indeed. But I don't really need helpful hints from the OP in any of her guises either

P.S. Oh, and I also believe you were unnecessarily personal and rude to JFTD and PS and should apologize.

Hehe, somehow I'm not expecting an apology...

If a rear is asked for it can't be a btv evasion as it's not an evasion - nice to see he can manage to sit on his bum and raise his poll even with you on him Jftd

I'm amazed his knees don't buckle to be honest!

 

[ester]

Frank was v. like the bay welshie GG - head in the right place but the rest of his body not actually doing much - he is pretty short backed and was way off tracking up!

 

[Pigeon]

By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...

Is he a Highland or a Lipizzaner?

 

[_GG_]

Frank was v. like the bay welshie GG - head in the right place but the rest of his body not actually doing much - he is pretty short backed and was way off tracking up!

I find it really common in Welshies to be honest. They find the head position easy so many riders stop there, happy with it. This horse is amazing. He would be a perfect schoolmaster for teaching riders about contact. Basically, with him, if you don't hold the contact and ride him properly, he will run into a canter transition and throw a little buck in for good measure. If, however, you sit up, half halt, hold the contact and off-on with the outside leg, he will pop a perfect walk to canter transition remaining uphill, forward and engaged or if you just use an "on" outside leg, he'll pop very sweetly into canter from a trot, no bucking.

The number of people that I taught on him that exclaimed how shocked they were at how much weight was in their hands when he was working properly says it all. He wasn't leaning...they were just expecting featherlight contact.

A way that I explain the "weight" in the reins is that it is much more comfortable for the horse to know that the bit will be still and consistent in the mouth than loose and jabbing, which is what a featherlight contact gives.

 

[chestnut cob]

A way that I explain the "weight" in the reins is that it is much more comfortable for the horse to know that the bit will be still and consistent in the mouth than loose and jabbing, which is what a featherlight contact gives.

Which is why the old schooling whip across your hands trick works so well, as I've been recently discovering while I'm trying to improve the consistency of my contact. Keeps my hands much stiller, carried more as a pair, and horse is much happier and secure in the contact

 

[Pigeon]

A way that I explain the "weight" in the reins is that it is much more comfortable for the horse to know that the bit will be still and consistent in the mouth than loose and jabbing, which is what a featherlight contact gives.

This!!! It was realising this that made a huge difference to me. I realised that a secure squishy contact is so much nicer for the horse. GG you're so good at phrasing stuff!!

I might post a video from the other day, of us going through a test, once with a decent contact and once with a 'featherlight' contact, which is what I revert to when I'm nervous. It's fascinating in light of this thread, because horse looks so utterly pissed off with the inconsistent lighter contact.

I don't know if I'm brave enough though, I have a kidney infection and was riding hunched over and standing in the stirrups for downward transitions haha, it really is something to behold.

 

[_GG_]

Which is why the old schooling whip across your hands trick works so well, as I've been recently discovering while I'm trying to improve the consistency of my contact. Keeps my hands much stiller, carried more as a pair, and horse is much happier and secure in the contact

Some of the old ones are still the best

 

[Fun Times]

By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...

Well at least no one can accuse him of being on the forehand and he certainly has his hind legs underneath him (thank god)! Bit naughty of you to give him a hug though as that could be regarded as rewarding his bad behaviour!!
GG, if ever you fancy a busmans holiday in yorkshire do let me know!

 

[kate2323]

I've decided to "retire " from this forum ..really can't believe the ganging-up ...seems you can't post any thing without it suddenly becoming " insulting" "rude " or "unnecessarily personal...goodbye and good luck everyone!
love and light kate2323

 

[Fun Times]

I've decided to "retire " from this forum ..really can't believe the ganging-up ...seems you can't post any thing without it suddenly becoming " insulting" "rude " or "unnecessarily personal...goodbye and good luck everyone!
love and light kate2323

Oh now this has really not helped my fear that I am a terminal threadkiller!