Dressage breeding (edited) - lines when looking at horses for sale

Yes, I'm not sure LeGrande has many (any?) GP progeny.
They seem like nice alrounders but wouldn't be a sire I would look to if I wanted to invest in a horse for a pro to take as far as possible.
I think there are other bloodlines which are more fitting for what you want and offer both performance and temperament.
 
Boulty said:
What I know about dressage breeding could be written on the back of a stamp but I do know of a reasonable number of LeGrande babies and would say all the ones I know of would fit your requirements for temperament and again the ones I know of don’t seem to randomly break down any more than the average horse on the street. No idea how proven he is in terms of them making it to GP though.
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He doesn’t.
He’s a good solid upper end amateur duel purpose stallion. Probably the sort more people wanting to do dressage should consider, but he isn’t front of the queue if you are thinking upper level.
 
My Sir Sinclair 6yo is 110% amateur friendly if that’s what you’re interested in- probably not if it’s for a pro ride but he’s a lovely hack. He’s USA based now I think but I’d have another in a flash. I’m too amateur to know mines potential beyond ‘nice horse’ and mines part gelder rather than pure dressage bred.
My avoid list is Sir Donnerhall and Jazz. All off experiences of 1 or 2 horses, not barns full coming through for producing.
 
I quite like the “lord” stallion lines, such as lord Loxley. Although maybe not as keen on their more modern lines such as Lord Leatherdale and his lines for example.
I do like L’espoir.
I have viewed a few Glamordale 4 year olds in my recent horse search and while I found them all quite underwhelming, from an amateur’s POV they did have lovely temperaments.
 
ihatework said:
I’ve seen too many Sandro Hit lines with ems/laminitis type issues for my liking. Ancedotal and completely just my experience but enough for me to think twice.
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I have one and all I’ll say is they are quirky bastards lol

You have to think about what you really want from the horse. Mine is eton (sir Oldenburg x rohdiamant) x Sandro hit x Weltmeyer. I would never have chosen the latter breeding off the bat but he was small bay pretty moved plenty nice enough for me and had great feet. He’s training GP at home and well on the way to an Inter 2 debut next year.

But he also jumps hacks goes to the gallop and the beach etc. He is a cool boy but he is sharp and hot.
 
nikkimariet said:
I have one and all I’ll say is they are quirky bastards lol

You have to think about what you really want from the horse. Mine is eton (sir Oldenburg x rohdiamant) x Sandro hit x Weltmeyer. I would never have chosen the latter breeding off the bat but he was small bay pretty moved plenty nice enough for me and had great feet. He’s training GP at home and well on the way to an Inter 2 debut next year.

But he also jumps hacks goes to the gallop and the beach etc. He is a cool boy but he is sharp and hot.
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He sounds lovely! I love the fact that you can take him to the beach but train GP.

Neither pro rider nor I mind a sharp horse but I would want the kind of sharpness that comes from keenness and joie de vivre which I find very different to that very cortisol-high, stressy, anxiety sharp which is what I’d want to steer clear of. I don’t want to have such a reactive horse that it doesn’t cope with life and is constantly stressed and in that irrational flight mode.
 
sbloom said:
My small amount of knowledge would say go for general/SJ sport horse breeding rather than dressage, at least a mix, go for old fashioned stamps, and prioritise long term soundness. If only we could see medical records especially joint injections...
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Can you keep a horse sound & competing beyond short to mid term with joint injections?

Don’t they start to become less effective, need to be more frequent and eventually stop helping?

So can’t make an unsound horse have a decent career span?
 
Fieldlife said:
Can you keep a horse sound & competing beyond short to mid term with joint injections?

Don’t they start to become less effective, need to be more frequent and eventually stop helping?

So can’t make an unsound horse have a decent career span?
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You may well know more about them than I do, but I see/hear of routine (sometimes prophylactic) injections given to horses over and over and this is accepted as normal. Something has allowed these terribly unstable horses to not be completely destroyed by dodgy training.

Either way, as most stallions are graded at 3 and will have bred a huge proportion of their foals before they reach their teens it's something that most people aren't considering much at all in the scheme of things.
 
Alibear said:
I'd talk to your rider, and see what they like/get on with best and go from there.
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This really, a pro with the experience you describe will have ridden a lot of different horses/bloodlines, and I'm sure has some personal favourites. Obviously I know a pros job is to ride and do their best for every horse, but they are still human and will have a character type they prefer. The journey you are proposing, from unbacked to GP, is a long one, and having a horse the rider really gets on with is so important. You may have five horses who are all capable of GP with good breeding, but your rider will probably only really like one or two of them, and as you are buying unbacked, bloodlines become more important as a guide for the future.

I've taken three horses to GP ad I've really loved all of them from the very start, there has been something about all of them that has just spoken to me, and I think thats important for the journey, so talk to your rider.
 
sbloom said:
You may well know more about them than I do, but I see/hear of routine (sometimes prophylactic) injections given to horses over and over and this is accepted as normal. Something has allowed these terribly unstable horses to not be completely destroyed by dodgy training.

Either way, as most stallions are graded at 3 and will have bred a huge proportion of their foals before they reach their teens it's something that most people aren't considering much at all in the scheme of things.
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I disagree, if you are proposing to buy a youngster with the aim of getting to GP, a sensible person will look for stallions who have reached that level themselves, and depending on their age, will either have offspring at GP, or at least well on their way.
 
daffy44 said:
This really, a pro with the experience you describe will have ridden a lot of different horses/bloodlines, and I'm sure has some personal favourites. Obviously I know a pros job is to ride and do their best for every horse, but they are still human and will have a character type they prefer. The journey you are proposing, from unbacked to GP, is a long one, and having a horse the rider really gets on with is so important. You may have five horses who are all capable of GP with good breeding, but your rider will probably only really like one or two of them, and as you are buying unbacked, bloodlines become more important as a guide for the future.

I've taken three horses to GP ad I've really loved all of them from the very start, there has been something about all of them that has just spoken to me, and I think thats important for the journey, so talk to your rider.
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I’ll definitely consult her and bring her with me, and we have some trips to Europe that we’ve discussed too.

But I’m a firm believer in getting as many data points as I can, and shortlisting to include characteristics that I would want, just in case she decides she’s moving to a different country or she changes her mind about what she’s doing - or gets far better horses offered to her and is too busy for mine! I want it to be an equal balance of a horse she clicks with and a horse I would want to keep regardless of whether she’s involved, where I could find someone else to ride if I have to. You can never really guarantee what happens in the future so I want to come in with balance.

Also, if we buy unbacked then I’ll start the horse and hand over once it’s ready to ride on. That’s my favourite part of horses in general, and my pro rider’s least favourite!
 
LadyGascoyne said:
He sounds lovely! I love the fact that you can take him to the beach but train GP.

Neither pro rider nor I mind a sharp horse but I would want the kind of sharpness that comes from keenness and joie de vivre which I find very different to that very cortisol-high, stressy, anxiety sharp which is what I’d want to steer clear of. I don’t want to have such a reactive horse that it doesn’t cope with life and is constantly stressed and in that irrational flight mode.
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He is not always the most relaxing ride but I love that he can do 30 miles of hacking one day then inter 1 dressage the next. Hes a funny boy.
 
I have a mare whose sire is De Niro x Jazz and she’s splendid ☹️ - probably the most level headed 4YO I’ve ever sat on.

So I wouldn’t discount a horse simply because Jazz appears in the pedigree. He didn’t top indexes for no reason…

Motherline is Flemmingh. A good line for rideability.
 
FWIW the colt I know by Finest is really nice, very mature for his age and size and a lovely temperament. Was bred by a pro to go GP on.

I doubt Finest himself is what you’re looking for - he’s very spider-leggy and hasn’t competed to any useful level (though he’s already got offspring at GP) - but being crossed with a heavier WB mare seems to have resulted in a really nice horse without ridiculous movement.

Would be interested to hear other people’s experiences with Fürst lines.
 
daffy44 said:
I disagree, if you are proposing to buy a youngster with the aim of getting to GP, a sensible person will look for stallions who have reached that level themselves, and depending on their age, will either have offspring at GP, or at least well on their way.
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So why are we grading at three if that's the case? The system is insane.

Grand Prix wasn't specifically mentioned in the original post but broken youngsters were, hence my comment.

I speak from personal experience of breeders being perfectly happy to breed from very young stallions and, in fact, choosing them on the basis of "each generation being better than the one before".
 
Grading is effectively a quality assessment. I think it’s a load of shit as it’s about the there and now and they all get terribly excited about a young stallion, produce a tonne of offspring which you see at YH classs and then they disappear and don’t go on. I never understood why Quarterback for instance was used so much. He had spider paces but no ability to collect and looked ridiculous in how uphill he was. Then it was Sezuan etc.
Obviously I understand the marketing and business that has been created around this flash with young horses who basically get no further than Adv Medium but it’s almost like two dressage horses are produced. One for YH money and one to get to highest level of the sport. I appreciate breeders need to see a return on investment so hence the YH circus.
 
sbloom said:
So why are we grading at three if that's the case? The system is insane.

Grand Prix wasn't specifically mentioned in the original post but broken youngsters were, hence my comment.

I speak from personal experience of breeders being perfectly happy to breed from very young stallions and, in fact, choosing them on the basis of "each generation being better than the one before".
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Grading at three is, as others have said a basic quality assessment, horses can fail on xrays, conformation etc, do they always get it right? No, but its a start.

As to why people breed from young stallions who have done nothing other than fling their legs about at a stallion show, in my experience there are a few reasons;
1) Some people dont want a GP horse.
2) Some people are blinded by the flashiness and dont do any reasearch.
3)If the young stallion already has a name for itself eg champion of the licensing etc, then some breeders will want to capitalise on that and hopefully be able to sell the foal on the name of the stallion, with no thought for the foals future.
4) The young stallion has a bloodline the breeder really likes/wants/knows works well with a specific damline they have, and cant get/cant afford a more established stallion with the same bloodlines.
5)The breeder really likes the young stallion and believes in them enough to take a risk.

In the case of the last two reasons, most breeders will try to mitigate the risk by using a proven damline that they know well.

I stand by my comment that most sensible people looking to buy unbacked with the plan of producing to GP, they will choose stallions that have competed to that level themselves and/or have progeny at the level.
 
daffy44 said:
Grading at three is, as others have said a basic quality assessment, horses can fail on xrays, conformation etc, do they always get it right? No, but its a start.

As to why people breed from young stallions who have done nothing other than fling their legs about at a stallion show, in my experience there are a few reasons;
1) Some people dont want a GP horse.
2) Some people are blinded by the flashiness and dont do any reasearch.
3)If the young stallion already has a name for itself eg champion of the licensing etc, then some breeders will want to capitalise on that and hopefully be able to sell the foal on the name of the stallion, with no thought for the foals future.
4) The young stallion has a bloodline the breeder really likes/wants/knows works well with a specific damline they have, and cant get/cant afford a more established stallion with the same bloodlines.
5)The breeder really likes the young stallion and believes in them enough to take a risk.

In the case of the last two reasons, most breeders will try to mitigate the risk by using a proven damline that they know well.

I stand by my comment that most sensible people looking to buy unbacked with the plan of producing to GP, they will choose stallions that have competed to that level themselves and/or have progeny at the level.
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All poor approaches, to varying extents, to making breeding decisions in my opinion.

And I don't disagree, GP wasn't mentioned but wanting something not broken was, as I said in my previous explanation.
 
LEC said:
Grading is effectively a quality assessment. I think it’s a load of shit as it’s about the there and now and they all get terribly excited about a young stallion, produce a tonne of offspring which you see at YH classs and then they disappear and don’t go on. I never understood why Quarterback for instance was used so much. He had spider paces but no ability to collect and looked ridiculous in how uphill he was. Then it was Sezuan etc.
Obviously I understand the marketing and business that has been created around this flash with young horses who basically get no further than Adv Medium but it’s almost like two dressage horses are produced. One for YH money and one to get to highest level of the sport. I appreciate breeders need to see a return on investment so hence the YH circus.
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I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but Sezuan was a bad example in this context. Sezuan has solid, proven GP breeding on both his top and bottom line, he competed internationally at Small Tour in addition to his World titles, and I think he didnt compete at GP himself due to rider/training issues rather than his lask of ability. Either way, he has progeny competing at GP, and is known to pass on a great brain, work ethic and movement.
 
sbloom said:
All poor approaches, to varying extents, to making breeding decisions in my opinion.

And I don't disagree, GP wasn't mentioned but wanting something not broken was, as I said in my previous explanation.
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I didnt say they were good reasons....

I am not a breeder, although I have friends who are, but I have bought a few foals, and I have produced from foal to GP, so I know a little about the process.
 
Do what we do looking for new dogs. Go watch some GP/PSG/Inter tests, even if just online. Note what you do and don't like. Afterwards, look at the breeding. Trends start to appear very quickly of what appeals to you line wise. Then look at longevity, numbers making it to GP vs foal crop etc
 
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I have seen another one by https://www.superiorequinesires.com/quaterhit/ with DiMaggio / De Niro on the dam side. which apparently has a lovely attitude and is 3, so a nice age. He’s not a stallion I know much about in terms of offspring - if anyone else does?

I don’t have €2m to spend on a horse (goodness did you see the Hanoverian Stallion Licensing! My favourite was actually the Vitalis x Apache x Fidermark colt) so there will always be a trade off for me.

Temperament and soundness would be things I wouldn’t want to waiver on, so I may need to think more laterally in breeding. I will definitely look at the Iberian sports horse types too although I always find myself drawn to the more traditional Iberian which then doesn’t fit with this particular brief particularly well.
 
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Plenty of international Iberians! There's two lusitanos competing at London Olympia this year, depends whether you want a going to be international winner GP horse or a GP horse generally. Your budget would go further for an Iberian as they are not as popular as warmbloods but depends what you want to do really.

If you do go that route then I know those lines very well 🤣
 
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