Dressage/combined training - choice of tests

criso

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So I am looking at doing some combined training. There are a few offered around here but they seem to do a choice of test and I wondered how the scoring would work.
So class 2 offers the choice of an intro, prelim, novice or ele test with jumps at 65cm. Then a class with the same test options but jumps at 75cm.

Do all the score go along each other. If the scores are marked alongside, does that not give the people who choose the easier test an advantage. If I chooe a prelim, assuming an average outing, I would get a certain score. If I chose a novice test, score would be much lower.


They are also trailblazers qualifiers so if you want to go down that route you have to combine the 65cm/prelim and 75cm/novice which is optional but raises its own problems with a horse that jumps consistently at 75am but is nowhere near novice level for dressage.

This format seems to be quite common round here in combined training classes but none explain on the schedule how you mark different tests alongside each other.
 

ihatework

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CT scoring can vary.
BD and one big unaff venue round here basically do it on good marks (eg 150 out of 200) and then deduct 4 per sj fault.

This IMO is the wrong way to do it - the sj is not influential enough. This method also wouldn’t be fair on a PYO dressage rest as they are often scored with a different total.


Personally I think the only way to do it is in line with BE scoring, so penalties from the % and 4% per sj fault.

I haven’t a clue how trailblazers do it though
 

criso

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Thanks

It wasn't so much the overall scoring of dressage and showjumping, I'm going to assume they follow trailblazers which means that faults in the SJ get deducted from dressage score.


It was more how they mark a class where someone is doing Intro A and someone else is doing Novice 28 in the same class.
 

ihatework

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Thanks

It wasn't so much the overall scoring of dressage and showjumping, I'm going to assume they follow trailblazers which means that faults in the SJ get deducted from dressage score.


It was more how they mark a class where someone is doing Intro A and someone else is doing Novice 28 in the same class.

Well they will mark it in accordance with the directives of that level of test
 

criso

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Well they will mark it in accordance with the directives of that level of test

Yes but how can people compete doing different tests in the same class which realistically with the same horse would get different marks. Sorry if I'm not getting it but dressage isn't my thing and different tests in the same class make as much sense to me as changing heights between competitors in SJ or people jumping different courses xc.
 

Ouch05

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The ones round here follow the following format

Into - 50cm
Prelim - 60cm
Novice 70 cm etc (not a true reflection of heights)

They do not mix dressage class with the same height. I struggle as I compete Dr at Ele but do not jump so 65 would still scare me that is why I stopped doing CT. Also the venue I went to took you DR score and then delete the faults off if. So a DR or 60% dropped to 56%. Not sure if it is right or wrong but that is what they do
 

ihatework

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Yes but how can people compete doing different tests in the same class which realistically with the same horse would get different marks. Sorry if I'm not getting it but dressage isn't my thing and different tests in the same class make as much sense to me as changing heights between competitors in SJ or people jumping different courses xc.

They are doing it to give flexibility for horses who may have different strengths/weaknesses in either dressage or showjumping. It’s only unaff so people will use it for training as much as anything. It’s quite common to do a PYO dressage test and it works just fine if scored on a % basis.

The problem will come if the tests offered have different total good marks, and yet they don’t score it from %. So for example an intro may have 200 good marks. A combination may have done a good test scoring 150 (75%). However a novice test scored out of 240 would mean that 150 good marks is only 62.5% and a mediocre performance
 

criso

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I'm not sure it will be used for training purposes, the UA dressage and SJ at the same venue is an end in itself not a stepping stone. There are lots of people who just do UA and various riding clubs and leagues for dressage and SJ. Combined training is less common as venues have to be able to offer more than one arena to run the two phases.


PYO still doesn't make sense to me as if I chose to enter and do the prelim, I would probably score mid 60's. So a clear show jumping might leave me on 65% If I choose to do a novice test maybe I score 50% if I'm lucky given that horse is not working at that level and I would finish on a lower score.
 

criso

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The ones round here follow the following format

Into - 50cm
Prelim - 60cm
Novice 70 cm etc (not a true reflection of heights)

They do not mix dressage class with the same height. I struggle as I compete Dr at Ele but do not jump so 65 would still scare me that is why I stopped doing CT. Also the venue I went to took you DR score and then delete the faults off if. So a DR or 60% dropped to 56%. Not sure if it is right or wrong but that is what they do

Whereas I have the opposite problem. I'm only staying at 75am because horse is very spooky so using that to build up confidence but dressage we are firmly at the prelim stage. I suppose you could argue that if I attempt a higher dressage test that while horrible to look at, it's not actively dangerous and less likely to result in actual elimination than competing above my level sj.
 

ihatework

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But that’s you? So you pick the prelim then???

I’ve certainly had horses where they needed their brain engaged and might score as well or better in a novice rather than a prelim.

Intro is half walk. If you have a bad walk but a good canter you might be better off doing prelim rather than intro.

Honestly, worry less about others and do what fits with your level as you are currently.

And if you see it as unfair then no one is making you enter 😜
 

criso

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But that’s you? So you pick the prelim then???

I’ve certainly had horses where they needed their brain engaged and might score as well or better in a novice rather than a prelim.

Intro is half walk. If you have a bad walk but a good canter you might be better off doing prelim rather than intro.

Honestly, worry less about others and do what fits with your level as you are currently.

And if you see it as unfair then no one is making you enter 😜

Not so much unfair as bafflement. Just seems a really strange thing to do and how couldyou possibly have a competition where everyone is doing something different.

I'd already decided I would enter in line with the trailblazers at 65cm and 75cm. The Novice test will not be good but I don't want to ride the same Prelim twice.
 

Otherwise

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I don't really see the problem with PYO at different levels, yes if you do an easier level you might stand a better chance at placing but winning isn't everything. I've done plenty of PYO BD, when you get to the FEI levels there's usually not enough people to justify running separate classes at the higher levels so running PYO FEI enables them to still run the classes people want. I've competed PSG whilst others in the class have done int1 and GP for example, I only care about other people's scores to put my performance into perspective and gauge whether the judge is generous or not.

For combined training unless you had every class at every height there are a lot of people who won't enter, having PYO dressage opens up the number of people who would enter and makes the show worth running.
 

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Hmm I see your point and assume people would ride a test down a level to get a better mark. But like the above poster, it’s possible that some horses would go better in a higher test so this gives people the chance to cherry pick

We’d def do a prelim over an intro for the reasons noted - he’s got a better canter than his walk. There are classes here though where due to the small height I’d do, I have to do an intro test.
 

criso

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For combined training unless you had every class at every height there are a lot of people who won't enter, having PYO dressage opens up the number of people who would enter and makes the show worth running.

People manage to run UA ODE and eventer trials and settle on one dressage test.

The show also has the option to do dressage only which is a good idea for maximising entries. People can enter the dressage only or add in the jumping if they want so they are targeting two markets. They then split the classes into one with PYO and one with a fixed dressage test so for example class 2 gives you the option to pyo dressage and combine it with 65cm. Class 3 combines the same prelim as class 2 with 65cm so seems to duplicate class 2. Both are trailblazers qualifiers as long as you pick the prelim in class 2. In addition if you are just doing the dressage there are additional tests you can do that are not available to combine with the jumping. Ends up with 14 classes

It looks like a logistical nightmare to run on the day. Be interesting to see how it goes if I can get transport and go.
 

CavaloBranco

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I used to do quite a lot of CT at riding club level but I don't remember it ever having a PYO test, as you say, much too complicated. You normally could either do just dressage or add a SJ round between certain times for a combined training score...but i think there was usually a simple prelim with 65cms, more advanced prelim with 75cms and a novice with 85cms (no intro back then!)
 

Branna

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A venue near me does exactly this (Brook Farm), it runs fine and just works. I've done it plenty of times. When they used to stick to the trailblazers set classes (Prelim 65cm, Novice 75cm, Elementary 85cm) they didn't get enough interest. If you think that a BE90 is a very basic prelim test, doing an Elem in order to jump 85cm is mad!

I'm fairly sure they run it as eventing scoring, i.e. dressage percentage converted to penalties and 4penalties added for a pole down.

As for PYO tests, for me it is no issue. Choose to do whatever level is right for you and your horse, get marked as a percentage against the movements and directives for that level. Do people really enter a level easier to get a better score? That would never occur to me! There is only a rosette up for grabs after all! All qualifying for trailblazers is only for those competing at the same level anyway.
 

criso

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Thanks Branna - it's Brook Farm I'm looking at. Do they jump indoors and dressage out or vice versa. If dressage out do they have multiple running alongside each other at the same time.

I agree Elem to jump 85cm seems excessive to me but 2 people on this thread have said they would rather jump lower and do a higher test. Would people enter at a lower level just to get a rosette - well given the people I see jumping at several heights from 55cm to 80cm they maybe. Entering at a height just below to warm up/get a spooky horse used to the ring is one thing but entering 4 or 5 classes in a row just to win rosettes is something I have observed.
 

Branna

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They usually jump indoors and dressage outdoors. That way they can have 2 dressage arenas running and usually one is just the combined training dressage, one is pure dressage. Also means that the jumping warm up tends to be quite quiet as obviously with only one test per approx 6 mins the jumping isn't busy. You will be given a time window in which to do your jumping after dressage and just let someone know when you are ready.

If you haven't been before one thing to note is Brook Farm is self stewarding so work out for yourself what arena you are in and who is going before you as you won't have someone coming to find you! There is a board up in the warm up with arenas labelled.

I've always enjoyed the CT there, they are pretty laid back relaxed shows. Good luck if you decide to go for it!
 
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criso

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Thanks - Brook Farm is one of my regular jumping venues. Recently they've been announcing the next 4 or 5 competitors to go for UA jumping which is great as I can hear it in the warm up and time my last practice jump. This is a recent development though and nearly everything else I do is self stewarding. However I use a transport company who are happy to act as assistant and let me know how many to go etc

2 dressage arenas outside will be a little challenging as the throughtwat is easily distracted by other horses and the last time we did a dressage test (on grass) that was marked out with white boards he spent the whole test goggling in horror, snorting loudly and attempting to keep his distance from the boards. He approves of the jumps there though and doesn't even mind the tigers or sheep.
 

rara007

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Enjoy and good luck! I quite often do the end of day PYO classes unaff ‘pure’ dressage as I need to be late on and the driven ODEs often give a choice- this weekend I’m doing the 3* test in the same class as others doing the novice test. I could elect to do the novice test to go for the win but I’d rather a run through of the proper test in a decent arena than another rosette to loose! Chose the test at your level, do it to the best of your abilities and enjoy. I hate the brook farm jumps indoors- well my old pony did so now I do!
 

criso

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I hate the brook farm jumps indoors- well my old pony did so now I do!

You would think a 16.2 leggy tb would find the indoors tight but he's quite nippy for a tall horse and seems happier indoors. Obviously we can't be competitive with the turns the ponies can do but he does like it.

In this case if I do 2 classes then I may have to do the novice test as it's the same prelim for both and reallly don't want to do the same test twice. I don't want to do an intro as he needs to learn to focus in all paces and offers slightly different white board reactions in canter.
 
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