Dressage/eventing people - Training contact - competition contact - Q

[lisab]

Hello, could you give me some advice please?

I've done very little dressage and have been given the ride on the most fabulous little mare to event/dressage. She's only ever show-jumped but is very quick to learn.

My horse went lame last week and I borrowed her for a ODE (her first ever) and we did an unaff Intro. The dressage was not a disgrace (59%) but not very good - tense and hollow was the common theme. However, she went DC and we came 9th. Her owners and I were over the moon as I'd only been riding her for 5 days.

I've been schooling her since using the "training" contact I learned in my one and only dressage lesson - wide arms and loose reins with the trainer shouting "long neck, long steps" at me throughout the whole lesson.

She has responded brilliantly to this and is doing much, much bigger and forward paces with her head on the floor.

However, I can't go round a dressage arena and do a test with this contact as we would be hopelessly inaccurate to the markers. But as soon as I pick the "normal" contact up again, she goes tense and hollow and back to tiny little steps.

How can I get her to do long neck long steps with a normal contact that will allow me to meet the markers?

Any advice please?

 

[be positive]

Your experience of dressage training sounds interesting, I assume the idea was to work the horse long and low but this cannot really work on a loose rein.
The horse needs to learn to stretch down, take longer steps and relax into a long rein, not loose, once they really stretch into a light contact they should be able to be picked up from that without creating tension or losing the length of stride. By riding onto the loose rein as soon as you pick up a contact she will tense up, so try to keep a light contact encourage her to become soft and gradually you will be able to pick her up more without the tension you are getting now. Make sure she is also accepting your legs, moving in front of you before doing more, try not to have your arms too wide as this will not help in the long run.
At prelim level you could ride the test in a reasonably long, low outline without any problems if she is truly on the contact.

 

[kerilli]

^^^ this is all very good advice, spot on.
you need to be riding her to a light contact... with loose reins there is no contact.
however, at the moment if it is either/or, i'd go for soft, forward, relaxed, swinging, & low in a test rather than tight & short... a good judge will understand!

 

[lisab]

Thank you both. I'm wondering now whether it's less to do with the baggy reins and more to do with me being more upright, relaxed and more and longer legs on that does the trick because I tried this with my own horse tonight after posting on here but with more of a contact (we were in a big field and he is sharp).

Last time I tried with him, he was having none of it. He is a show-jumper too and is show-jump schooled from when he was very young.

He did long and low as well tonight - in trot and canter too. I can normally only get him to do it in walk. And he was totally sound as well after 10 days rest - phew.

I shall try using a light contact next time but make sure I keep the relaxed, upright, longer legs on thing that I have mastered with the baggy reins.

Hey I'm quite amazed at how much I'm enjoying this dressage schooling lark - I've only ever suffered it before to get to the fun next 2 bits!

 

[kerilli]

ha, be warned... it's addictive! i show-jumped first too and it took a lot of time for me to love flatwork, but now I do. Good luck with both of yours.

 

[oldvic]

Try to feel that you are riding her to the contact rather than taking the contact and blocking her. The being more upright with longer legs should have the effect of putting her more out infront of you if you use your legs and core muscles positively. This will make her work from behind, through her back so then she can take the contact forward and down. Working without contact means you have no connection so there is nowhere to go from there.

 

[Sol]

I don't know if it's quite the same, but I've always found that my gelding has a tendancy to shorten his neck upwards, so it can feel like he is in an outline sometimes, but he isn't. His neck almost becomes shaped like a swans and it comes back at me from the base, rather than him going overbent, and it makes him very tense overall and it's not really pleasant for either of us to be honest!
Some instructors I've had lessons with have all been about driving him forwards into the contact, in the hope that he'll suddenly begin working into it, but all I've found that this does is make him run, and get more tense, and more mouthy & tight in his neck! Now when I school, I keep in mind "Forwards thinking hands" at all times. I don't use silly amounts of leg, as it just backs him off the contact more, but I do do lots of transitions (initially just walk/halt trying to ignore what his neck does) to get him listening, and then really concentrate on keeping his head *out* more than down. I do the same on the lunge & really praise him when he does what I want. It's amazing to see how differently he moves now. After 15-20mins he's automatically more forward going, it's like he remembers that he can move after all! Sometimes it's really difficult, as he's still quite uneven so will block on one rein & drop the other, or will overreact to one rein, and I have to resist the urge to hang on or drop a rein and just keep a light feel without pulling, at all! Which really isn't easy when you're trying to do a downwards transition on a wiggly little horse who doesn't want to stop
I really wish I'd heard of having 'forwards thinking hands' sooner, and the whole idea of riding a horse up into a contact to me makes me think of almost riding the horse into a wall, something solid & unyielding, which doesn't really work... there has to be a little give & take at least I think. I know it's not necessarily how people mean it, but words can have a funny affect on actions

 

[oldvic]

If you feel you are riding into a solid contact then you are not riding to a good quality contact as it is a blocking contact. When the horse shortens the withers they normally lack engagement and have too much weight on their forehand. Pushing them forward in this position is going to make them run and pull themselves along from infront and the neck comes up and back as they don't like feeling out of balance. In this instance it is beneficial to slow down to sort the balance so you have something to ride forward. A forward thinking hand should be what we all strive to achieve but it has to receive the power from the hind legs - that is the difficult bit! Too little contact is a fault just as too much is.

 

[kerilli]

lisab, just check that your elbows are staying really heavy and relaxed, with a bend in them, hanging down and letting your arms move so that your hands stay still (in relation to the horse's mouth, which means in walk and canter for e.g. that your hands will be moving back and forth quite a bit!) also keep thumbs on top to keep your wrists relaxed, if you go to 'piano hands' style (backs of hands on top) this stiffens the wrists and elbows.
tbh it just sounds as if you need more dressage lessons and lots more practice. the perfect contact thing is not easy to get! as oldvic says, it's the 'forward thinking hand' (my trainer says that 'once you pick up a contact, your hands belong to the horse's mouth, not your body') which absorbs but does NOT block the power coming from behind.
good luck!

 

[Sol]

If you feel you are riding into a solid contact then you are not riding to a good quality contact as it is a blocking contact. When the horse shortens the withers they normally lack engagement and have too much weight on their forehand. Pushing them forward in this position is going to make them run and pull themselves along from infront and the neck comes up and back as they don't like feeling out of balance. In this instance it is beneficial to slow down to sort the balance so you have something to ride forward. A forward thinking hand should be what we all strive to achieve but it has to receive the power from the hind legs - that is the difficult bit! Too little contact is a fault just as too much is.

Too little contact to me though is either a hand that is giving & taking the rein as it is fixed, or moves in a way which causes the reins to go slack and then taught again as it doesn't follow the mouth, or it is *no* contact (ie, you haven't taken up the reins). I just think that sometimes there is too much empasis on pushing the horse into the contact, and there has to be a limit on how much you push? I will only push to a light contact now, and when the horse is ready to up the power and maintain that light contact... fab. I don't understand the reasoning behind pushing so much that in order to have any control, you have to take up a stronger contact even if it isn't necessarily a *fixed* contact. I've even had it advised by someone who events at 4* I believe. Fair enough, at times Dante did need to be more forwards, but I think there were other ways to go about it (that probably would have taken longer than the time of the lesson however to have been much good!).

 

[lisab]

Thank you very much everyone, much appreciated.

 

[oldvic]

Too little contact to me though is either a hand that is giving & taking the rein as it is fixed, or moves in a way which causes the reins to go slack and then taught again as it doesn't follow the mouth, or it is *no* contact (ie, you haven't taken up the reins). I just think that sometimes there is too much empasis on pushing the horse into the contact, and there has to be a limit on how much you push? I will only push to a light contact now, and when the horse is ready to up the power and maintain that light contact... fab. I don't understand the reasoning behind pushing so much that in order to have any control, you have to take up a stronger contact even if it isn't necessarily a *fixed* contact. I've even had it advised by someone who events at 4* I believe. Fair enough, at times Dante did need to be more forwards, but I think there were other ways to go about it (that probably would have taken longer than the time of the lesson however to have been much good!).

Too little contact will vary from horse to horse. Some horses require more weight in the rein than others. Without connection from behind, through the back and to the contact there is less adjustability as true engagement and collection won't happen. The lightness comes from the horse taking more weight on the hind legs so the front end becomes lighter otherwise the horse is behind the bridle.

 

[siennamum]

My mare has always been terrible for this and the things which worked for me are:

1. when she rushes and goes tense, move her neck, some gentle flexing should help loosen along her topline.
2. Slow, looping exercises in the school, in trot just focussed on rythym, I avoided transitions, in particular anything involving canter flipped the switch into hyper mode.
3. Really being strict about my rise. Keeping it sharp & light off the saddle & very pronounced, also using it to slow the rythym.
4. My mare feels fine when she is in fact too fast, I have to slow everything down significantly.

 

[Sol]

Too little contact will vary from horse to horse. Some horses require more weight in the rein than others. Without connection from behind, through the back and to the contact there is less adjustability as true engagement and collection won't happen. The lightness comes from the horse taking more weight on the hind legs so the front end becomes lighter otherwise the horse is behind the bridle.

I will continue not to believe that entirely... If I did, I'd have no hope as I have arthritis in my hands & fingers, which considering I am only just nearly 19, is going to get no better! Fair enough, I've never schooled to a particularly high level - but nor have I felt the need for that 'stronger contact'. But then, I'm also keen on the idea that a horse should be able to remain in self-carriage with NO contact eventually, they manage it in the field after all. Not immediately of course, but with training... whether it take a few years or a lifetime. I'm not interested in competing any more though, so I'm not concerned about the length of time it takes. It's a nice feeling

 

[kerilli]

I think many roads lead to Rome and certainly many riders who get fantastic results look to have a LOT of weight in the reins, a strong contact.
Must admit, my preference (and that of my trainer) is for lightness. Even when I think I am being very light he'll repeat "lighter, be lighter". And when I bleated "but it feels so insecure!" last time, he replied instantly "then the LAST thing you should do is use more hand." That told me...!
One of his mantras is "the inside hand is like a handbrake on the horse's inside hindleg" and I do wonder when watching those who are riding with a very strong contact, whether they are having to create more and more energy (and maybe thus building some tension? I really don't know) to counter this effect. I really don't know.
But most horses are very adaptable, and even ones who had been ridden in a strong contact can learn how to accept a light contact, imho.

 

[Sol]

I think many roads lead to Rome and certainly many riders who get fantastic results look to have a LOT of weight in the reins, a strong contact.
Must admit, my preference (and that of my trainer) is for lightness. Even when I think I am being very light he'll repeat "lighter, be lighter". And when I bleated "but it feels so insecure!" last time, he replied instantly "then the LAST thing you should do is use more hand." That told me...!
One of his mantras is "the inside hand is like a handbrake on the horse's inside hindleg" and I do wonder when watching those who are riding with a very strong contact, whether they are having to create more and more energy (and maybe thus building some tension? I really don't know) to counter this effect. I really don't know.
But most horses are very adaptable, and even ones who had been ridden in a strong contact can learn how to accept a light contact, imho.

It is very true. Not only can I just not physically hold that kind of contact (well, in an emergency if a horse decides it's off, I can, just about, but prefer to avoid such situations!), but it doesn't exactly look nice... and surely can't feel nice for the horse? Hmm. I like the sound of your trainer! I do think some 'good' riders do genuinely manage to make dressage look as much like hard work as it really is... if you get what I mean?

Btw, not trying to start any arguments or anything like that, for anyone wondering, I've just been reading a lot of things recently and especially forum/fb threads where everything is a bit repetative, just like to see what other thoughts/feelings are out there... I think it helps, hopefully doesn't help to educate just me either!

 

[oldvic]

A horse that naturally want more weight in the rein will certainly become lighter with training but it is not as simple as just letting go. As he becomes more supple and engaged his balance will improve and he will become lighter - like weighting the back of a car so the steering becomes lighter. If however you get the steering too light then you lose control as the front wheels come off the ground. That is like the horse being behind the bridle. He needs to learn to stay out to the end of the rein but not use you as a 5th leg. Like anything, it is necessary to push the boundaries and see if you are ready to go to the next level otherwise progress will be limited. Kerilli, you are so right about the hand acting as a brake to the hind leg hence the quality of the contact being so important on strong horses and keeping the elbow soft and bent.
Sol, I'm sorry to hear about your arthritis especially at such a young age. Obviously that means it is more comfortable for you to ride horses that tend to sit behind the contact than the opposite.

 

[kerilli]

Well, yes, and without wanting to sound pathetically fluffy, a bit held hard and strongly and constantly against the bars of the mouth (cf our shinbone - a sharp bone with a thin layer of fat and skin over it) cannot be comfortable for the horse...

 

[kerilli]

my reply above was to Sol's post, btw!
Oldvic, that's v interesting, thanks.
Hmm, I do wonder, when I watch riders who LOOK to have a really strong contact, but who have the horse really responsive, powering up to fabulous extended, coming back to excellent collected etc etc, whether they don't actually have as much weight in the rein as I think they do? I'm thinking of... oh, off the top of my head, Pippa Funnell, Lucinda Fredericks (the way she rode Brit in the dr for e.g.), Bettina Hoy. I am absolutely NOT criticising them at all (heaven forbid), it just looks to me as if they have a strong contact... but perhaps it needs to look like that to have that much engagement, powering through, adjustability etc? Hmm, more food for thought...

 

[crabbymare]

it just looks to me as if they have a strong contact... but perhaps it needs to look like that to have that much engagement, powering through, adjustability etc? Hmm, more food for thought...

You are right when you say that. a couple of the lovliest horses I have ridden looked as if they were going to be really strong in the hand but they were actually just very constant in their mouth and did not take a lot of contact so gave an illusion of being strong because with the power that they had you would assume that they wer strong.

 

[Sol]

Sol, I'm sorry to hear about your arthritis especially at such a young age. Obviously that means it is more comfortable for you to ride horses that tend to sit behind the contact than the opposite.

Such is life, could be worse. Funnily though, Dante is the first horse I've ridden in a long time that actually sits behind the contact at all Odd how it works...

 

[oldvic]

my reply above was to Sol's post, btw!
Oldvic, that's v interesting, thanks.
Hmm, I do wonder, when I watch riders who LOOK to have a really strong contact, but who have the horse really responsive, powering up to fabulous extended, coming back to excellent collected etc etc, whether they don't actually have as much weight in the rein as I think they do? I'm thinking of... oh, off the top of my head, Pippa Funnell, Lucinda Fredericks (the way she rode Brit in the dr for e.g.), Bettina Hoy. I am absolutely NOT criticising them at all (heaven forbid), it just looks to me as if they have a strong contact... but perhaps it needs to look like that to have that much engagement, powering through, adjustability etc? Hmm, more food for thought...

An interesting point. I have been told that Pippa's horses are lovely in the contact to ride and she certainly gets them connected from behind. I hadn't really considered that Bettina looks like she has a strong contact. Having said that, her 2 current advanced horses have a tendency to be a little contracted in their necks so maybe .... With Brit, Lucinda put into her a trot that she didn't have from nature so, although this can be produced from the leg and seat with correct training to build the engagement, balance, suppleness and strength, some horses find it very hard and just need a little more "help". This is where the quality of the contact is so important so that it doesn't block the hind leg. Horses are such great teachers as there are so many variables within one's system when training them.

 

[lisab]

Well, you lot have been having fun with this haven't you?

I've tried the more, light contact and she just doesn't go as well. It's really difficult not to school her with the loose rein because she does such big, powerful, soft work that is wonderful to sit on that anything else just feels rubbish!

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly and I am having the light contact that has been suggested already? The wide arm thing is easy to explain but long reins to one person is maybe a light contact to another? The reins are not hanging down totally and I keep a light contact in the outside one. The inside one though is proper long (although intermittently pulling and releasing - when she has the odd pokey-nose moment, I pull the inside one then almost throw it back at her - she then immediately drops again).

In my dressage lesson, I was told to keep a contact with the outside rein and give and release with the inside one.

The mare really, really responds to this and does the most big, powerful strides with her head really long and low. It is almost effortless for me to get to her to go like this with the training contact. I cannot get her to do it with more of a contact.

I am thinking of going back to the trainer for another go and ask him to teach me how to get her to go like she does with the training contact with more of a normal one.

Or (I shall try this first as it is free!) I will try tomorrow starting off with the wide arm/loose rein thing and see if I can sneak up on her and shorten my reins bit by bit and see if that works.

She is a babe!

 

[lisab]

Ok, I stand well and truly corrected. Humble apologies for being a Doubting Thomas!

I was lucky enough to have a lesson this morning with a dressage judge. Lots of loves/hates occurred...

She loves the mare (of course - I did say she is a babe). Said she has very nice paces and a big overtrack.

She hates my jumping saddle and really, really hates the "training contact" thing - shouted at me a lot to keep my hands still and soft and just ask very tactfully with the inside rein for her to come down.

She got me using my body-weight and my voice a lot and the mare really responded to this. She was very tense in a new arena with two nosey equines helpfully spectating and I was beginning to think she would never settle.

Then I had a bit of a lightbulb moment and realised that I was just creating more tension by trying to MAKE her come down. What I needed to do was relax and ALLOW her to come down. And she did. And for the final 5 minutes of the lesson, she was beautiful and long and low and soft. And all with a normal contact - hurraahhh!!

We have some way to go (judge said she needs to build her neck muscles in front of the saddle) and I have lots of work to do but that's fine and I'm actually really excited and looking forward to it.