Dressage experts - can you help me and have a look at this PSG horse?

H

HammieHamlet

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 November 2007
Messages
876
Visit site
I'm thinking about buying this horse, and would really like some advice from those of you who know anything about dressage!

Please be as critical as you wish, and also perhaps advise a price for him? He is 12yrs old, and was competing PSG a few years back. He is as safe as houses - you could put a 10 yr old on him or your granny.

There are 11 short clips linked below, showing walk - canter, and movements up to GP (although he certainly isn't established up to this level, so still training)

http://www.youtube.com/user/hammiehamlet#p/c/E1282A96C21484A2

Thanks :o)
 
(I am not a PSG expert by a long way....;) ) but he wouldn't grab my attention....nice points : lovely looking horse (front legs not quite straight?) and great matchy-matchy turn out but the higher level movements did not look well executed to me and the work when she wasn't pulling his head about to do pirouette or passage looked tense and poor quality (trot not tracking up). Not for me...no idea on price sorry as I wouldn't be offering (JMO ;) ). I take it the horse is not in the UK? Is it for you to do PSG or something else? :)
 
I'd be interested to know what sort of level the person that owns him currently is (is that her riding?), why he is for sale, and I'd be genuinely interested to know what price he is up for.

What is it you want from a horse?

To me he looks like a lovely honest horse that will cope well with an amatuer. From what I have seen from the video clips I'm not convinced he has necessarily been correctly trained, although that may be a harsh sweeping statement from me so take it with a pinch of salt.

So it sort of depends on what job you want the horse to do and how much he is.

I'll watch the thread with interest as I'm hoping to be in a position to buy a schoolmaster next year.
 
Firstly - it's very hard to tell with the video quality and my unbelievably slow download connection :( :(

I'm assuming he's in Russia?

He looks very smart and obviously has a great temperament so it depends what you want him for :)

However..... from what I can see, in terms of way of going, he looks very like other Russian trained horses I've seen (although they were in the UK) - they do all the party tricks but haven't got the basics established....

He has lots of front, but limited amount of muscle behind the saddle, he looks as though he's been produced in an advanced outline, without learning to work from behind first. Can he work long and low, to warm up, stretch his back muscles or does he start off "up" in front?

I have no idea what Russian prices are like - I saw a very similar horse a few years ago - not as good looking but similar level of training and way of going who was priced at £10,000. Having said that, he failed the vet (aged 8) so I would also recommend having him thoroughly vetted if you decide to proceed - particularly flexion tests

Hope this helps :) :)
 
thanks :o) I am thinking about taking him back to the UK as a schoolmaster, purely as he has such a lovely temperament and is very forgiving! He is currently in russia...

The rider has a very bad back at the moment, so did her best but was in quite a lot of pain.

The piaff / passage isn't established yet - he is a PSG horse officially!

Do you think he looks sound?
 
I have to say I don't really like it. Is it you riding it or is it his owner/rider at the moment?

It doesn't look to flow very much, it's very tense in it's mouth/head and personally it isn't executing the movements well enough to pay any decent amount of money. Especially as a 12yr old! And sorry if the rider is you, but they don't look balanced enough and are doing too much with their hands, ie holding onto his mouth! Basically for selling that horse those videos do NOT show him off to his best! As there seems to me to be a nice horse underneath! I'm not sure I would be interested him, if the price was right I would go and see him and ride him myself.

His hind leg isn't great, doesn't come underneath him enough, and he looks quite weak. I would say he doesn't swing enough through his hind quarters.

I think maybe my problem is more with the rider than the actual horse! So what are you wanting to do? The rider definatly looks like an amateur so thats a positive! However it would be interesting to see him with a different more balanced dressage rider!

I have no real idea about price but would probably at max pay about 8000 for him, but he's probably going for something more like 12 000 /15 000!

Sorry not very positive, but I think that you would be able to find better :D
 
ihatework said:
I'd be interested to know what sort of level the person that owns him currently is (is that her riding?), why he is for sale, and I'd be genuinely interested to know what price he is up for.

What is it you want from a horse?

To me he looks like a lovely honest horse that will cope well with an amatuer. From what I have seen from the video clips I'm not convinced he has necessarily been correctly trained, although that may be a harsh sweeping statement from me so take it with a pinch of salt.

So it sort of depends on what job you want the horse to do and how much he is.

I'll watch the thread with interest as I'm hoping to be in a position to buy a schoolmaster next year.
Click to expand...


The lady riding him is an FEI dressage judge - she's trained to and competed at GP.

He is for sale as the owner is getting divorced and can't afford to keep him (which I can understand as the livery is incredibly expensive over there). The rider looks after him, and doesn't want to sell him to the riding club, as he will have different riders on board all the time, and she wants him to go to a private home.

In terms of who has been riding him, it's been a combination of a 12 yr old boy (who is learning to ride) and the lady in the video. She is always present though when the boy rides.

I'm just trying to work out what to do at the moment in terms of buying him - he may not necessarily be for me, but I do know people looking for schoolmasters, so we may even keep him / train him for 6 months and then sell on. The plan certainly hasn't been finalized yet.
 
spacefaer said:
Firstly - it's very hard to tell with the video quality and my unbelievably slow download connection :( :(

I'm assuming he's in Russia?

He looks very smart and obviously has a great temperament so it depends what you want him for :)

However..... from what I can see, in terms of way of going, he looks very like other Russian trained horses I've seen (although they were in the UK) - they do all the party tricks but haven't got the basics established....

He has lots of front, but limited amount of muscle behind the saddle, he looks as though he's been produced in an advanced outline, without learning to work from behind first. Can he work long and low, to warm up, stretch his back muscles or does he start off "up" in front?

I have no idea what Russian prices are like - I saw a very similar horse a few years ago - not as good looking but similar level of training and way of going who was priced at £10,000. Having said that, he failed the vet (aged 8) so I would also recommend having him thoroughly vetted if you decide to proceed - particularly flexion tests

Hope this helps :) :)
Click to expand...


thanks - yes he is russian! Perhaps a different way of training (you only need to look at the other horses training in the background to see how they do things there), but the trainer judges internationally, so make of that what you like!

He does work long and low too :o) In fact, when I rode him, he worked very long and low with me as I prefer to ride like that!
 
Hemirjtm said:
I have to say I don't really like it. Is it you riding it or is it his owner/rider at the moment?

It doesn't look to flow very much, it's very tense in it's mouth/head and personally it isn't executing the movements well enough to pay any decent amount of money. Especially as a 12yr old! And sorry if the rider is you, but they don't look balanced enough and are doing too much with their hands, ie holding onto his mouth! Basically for selling that horse those videos do NOT show him off to his best! As there seems to me to be a nice horse underneath! I'm not sure I would be interested him, if the price was right I would go and see him and ride him myself.

His hind leg isn't great, doesn't come underneath him enough, and he looks quite weak. I would say he doesn't swing enough through his hind quarters.

I think maybe my problem is more with the rider than the actual horse! So what are you wanting to do? The rider definatly looks like an amateur so thats a positive! However it would be interesting to see him with a different more balanced dressage rider!

I have no real idea about price but would probably at max pay about 8000 for him, but he's probably going for something more like 12 000 /15 000!

Sorry not very positive, but I think that you would be able to find better :D
Click to expand...

thank you - its not me riding. In the riders defence, she has got a very bad back so couldn't really sit properly in the saddle. Her stirrup also broke in one of the clips, so it looks as though she's very unbalanced!
 
I'm afraid I don't like the riding style one jot, bad back or not.

For me, and when I do eventually buy, I will want something that has the true basic paces and lateral work correctly established. If they can do a few fun tricks on top then great but not essential.

To me this horse looks too manufactured and not correctly through from hind limb, over back and to the contact. For that reason I would be hesitant to buy as I'm not convinced he's be able to teach me what I need to learn.

I would also vet him well, especially hocks and back area.

That said he looks like a lovely forgiving chap and if you are looking for something to sell on, assuming he is sound, then you are bound to find someone that is wowed by the tricks and happy to buy.
 
As you said he is a PSG horse, I would actually want the Piaffe and Passage to be there, not neccessarily established but it doesn't look great (my horse who only does Premlim and Novice can do a few steps of Piaffe!). I think horses that are competing at a cartain level should be established at a higher level.

I can full appreciate that the rider has got a sore back, but in that cas i would have paid for someone else to ride him to get some videos.

Can i ask what price they are wanting for him, PM if you want!
 
ihatework said:
I'm afraid I don't like the riding style one jot, bad back or not.

For me, and when I do eventually buy, I will want something that has the true basic paces and lateral work correctly established. If they can do a few fun tricks on top then great but not essential.

To me this horse looks too manufactured and not correctly through from hind limb, over back and to the contact. For that reason I would be hesitant to buy as I'm not convinced he's be able to teach me what I need to learn.

I would also vet him well, especially hocks and back area.

That said he looks like a lovely forgiving chap and if you are looking for something to sell on, assuming he is sound, then you are bound to find someone that is wowed by the tricks and happy to buy.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Ditto this. Definatly needs vetting!
 
ihatework said:
I'm afraid I don't like the riding style one jot, bad back or not.

For me, and when I do eventually buy, I will want something that has the true basic paces and lateral work correctly established. If they can do a few fun tricks on top then great but not essential.

To me this horse looks too manufactured and not correctly through from hind limb, over back and to the contact. For that reason I would be hesitant to buy as I'm not convinced he's be able to teach me what I need to learn.

I would also vet him well, especially hocks and back area.

That said he looks like a lovely forgiving chap and if you are looking for something to sell on, assuming he is sound, then you are bound to find someone that is wowed by the tricks and happy to buy.
Click to expand...

thanks - this is why I'm interested to see what people think.

If he came to the UK, he would probably be with my trainer for a while, who is very classically trained so she would hopefully be able to work on him correctly and compete him.

i just like his personality - he is very forward thinking, and sane - especially given that these horses don't go out in a field, and get fed endless supplies of oats!

As for the vetting - I certainly wouldn't purchase him without full X-rays, but again, this is part of the reason for the post, as I would be interested to see which parts (apart from the legs) people would want to have scanned...
 
I like him, however he is working with a lot of tension there is no swing, Canter the tension again is there & he is struggling with collection. I would expect this kind of tension in a Medium horse but not in a horse thats PSG. He should be far more advanced in taking the weight behind & he's not, this could be because he's got hock problems it could also be he's not been trained well.

He went better when the rider was in rising trot however not sure why she needed the flexions:rolleyes:, the rider be it GP rider or judge is riding badly i would expect a lot better bad back or not. This is not just shown in her riding but the horses general way of going.

I do like him but im not sure there's stuff i don't like, i would love to see him with another rider.
 
HammieHamlet said:
thanks - this is why I'm interested to see what people think.

If he came to the UK, he would probably be with my trainer for a while, who is very classically trained so she would hopefully be able to work on him correctly and compete him.

i just like his personality - he is very forward thinking, and sane - especially given that these horses don't go out in a field, and get fed endless supplies of oats!

As for the vetting - I certainly wouldn't purchase him without full X-rays, but again, this is part of the reason for the post, as I would be interested to see which parts (apart from the legs) people would want to have scanned...
Click to expand...

For everything I have said I do actually like him. I just think he has been badly trained.
If you could get him cheap enough it might be worth the punt.
 
He looks a charming horse with a very forgiving nature but the Russian horses that I have had anything to do with were sharper and spookier when they came over here (they were mostly quite young though and obviously hadn't seen much outside space). His changes look secure and easy if lacking expression but the rest of his work is not connected from behind or in a round outline. Therefore as a schoolmaster is he going to teach you the correct feel and how to ride the movements properly? The answer is no, not the way he is going at the moment as he is against the hand, above the bit and behind the leg. He looks established in this way of going so it is comfortable for him to go this way and will take time and work for him to change as the muscle development needs re-arranging - a bit like a middle-aged man changing his posture. If he has worked for 9 years without basics he is going to have to learn to use parts of his body that are not used to work!
 
Hemirjtm said:
As you said he is a PSG horse, I would actually want the Piaffe and Passage to be there, not neccessarily established but it doesn't look great (my horse who only does Premlim and Novice can do a few steps of Piaffe!). I think horses that are competing at a cartain level should be established at a higher level.

I can full appreciate that the rider has got a sore back, but in that cas i would have paid for someone else to ride him to get some videos.

Can i ask what price they are wanting for him, PM if you want!
Click to expand...

i couldn't really get anyone else to ride him - I don't speak the language, so just have to get by with what I can! :o)

as for price - I'm waiting to find out, but will need to include traveling etc.
 
Thats a shame. Well I think if the price is right then you could proabably bring him over and sell him quite easily (unless he is for you to keep!).

Maybe try looking for the same type of horse over here and see if it is worth it!!
 
dressagecrazy said:
I like him, however he is working with a lot of tension there is no swing, Canter the tension again is there & he is struggling with collection. I would expect this kind of tension in a Medium horse but not in a horse thats PSG. He should be far more advanced in taking the weight behind & he's not, this could be because he's got hock problems it could also be he's not been trained well.

He went better when the rider was in rising trot however not sure why she needed the flexions:rolleyes:, the rider be it GP rider or judge is riding badly i would expect a lot better bad back or not. This is not just shown in her riding but the horses general way of going.

I do like him but im not sure there's stuff i don't like, i would love to see him with another rider.
Click to expand...

thanks for the comments - this is useful.

It would be awkward to try and communicate to her that I want to see someone else riding him, although I know her friend is riding him next week (as she is away) so I could try and pop down there to film him.... everything is so difficult over here though with the language :o(

i will try though.... I'm not a high level dressage rider, but for what its worth in my less than qualified opinion, he didn't feel at all tense when I rode him, but probably as I wasn't collecting him as much as she does
 
oldvic said:
He looks a charming horse with a very forgiving nature but the Russian horses that I have had anything to do with were sharper and spookier when they came over here (they were mostly quite young though and obviously hadn't seen much outside space). His changes look secure and easy if lacking expression but the rest of his work is not connected from behind or in a round outline. Therefore as a schoolmaster is he going to teach you the correct feel and how to ride the movements properly? The answer is no, not the way he is going at the moment as he is against the hand, above the bit and behind the leg. He looks established in this way of going so it is comfortable for him to go this way and will take time and work for him to change as the muscle development needs re-arranging - a bit like a middle-aged man changing his posture. If he has worked for 9 years without basics he is going to have to learn to use parts of his body that are not used to work!
Click to expand...

couldn't agree more!

I know of two schoolmaster type horses for sale here in the UK that would teach you more - one that has competed at PSG, with piafffe/passage established, the other trained to Adv Med with no points....

However, if you're buying with a view to sell on once you're back in the UK, then be aware that you'll come up against opinions on him as you've encountered here. To make money, you'll either have to get him very cheap, or change his way of going dramatically to suit the British market.

I can see what you like in him - I think you need to be clear though in what your future plans for him would be - bearing in mind, if you keep him 6 months, he'll be 13......

vetting wise - I would X ray feet and hocks
 
oldvic said:
He looks a charming horse with a very forgiving nature but the Russian horses that I have had anything to do with were sharper and spookier when they came over here (they were mostly quite young though and obviously hadn't seen much outside space). His changes look secure and easy if lacking expression but the rest of his work is not connected from behind or in a round outline. Therefore as a schoolmaster is he going to teach you the correct feel and how to ride the movements properly? The answer is no, not the way he is going at the moment as he is against the hand, above the bit and behind the leg. He looks established in this way of going so it is comfortable for him to go this way and will take time and work for him to change as the muscle development needs re-arranging - a bit like a middle-aged man changing his posture. If he has worked for 9 years without basics he is going to have to learn to use parts of his body that are not used to work!
Click to expand...

agree with you here - for a schoolmaster, he needs to obviously be moving correctly and it will require a lot of muscle change for him to go in a different way. Its interesting what you say about the russian horses being much spookier over here - he really doesn't seem at all spooky (and I've seen him in very busy environments) which is why I like him!
 
spacefaer said:
couldn't agree more!

I know of two schoolmaster type horses for sale here in the UK that would teach you more - one that has competed at PSG, with piafffe/passage established, the other trained to Adv Med with no points....

However, if you're buying with a view to sell on once you're back in the UK, then be aware that you'll come up against opinions on him as you've encountered here. To make money, you'll either have to get him very cheap, or change his way of going dramatically to suit the British market.

I can see what you like in him - I think you need to be clear though in what your future plans for him would be - bearing in mind, if you keep him 6 months, he'll be 13......

vetting wise - I would X ray feet and hocks
Click to expand...


thanks - will find out vetting prices for hocks too.

what would you consider to be 'cheap'?
 
If you're thinking of bringing him over and selling him on.... then cheap would be to work out his future value when sold less costs and any degree of profit (!)

Future sale price less
cost of vetting in Russia plus
transport to UK plus
cost of livery until sold plus
cost of training him for the UK market plus
competition costs as he would ideally have a good UK competition record

so his purchase price would have to be reasonable to offset the costs and add a bit of profit, depending on how much you plan to sell him for

can't be more helpful than that :(

the price of dressage horses in the UK varies hugely - mainly depending on whether a "name" has competed the horse or is involved in the sale, as much as the level it has competed. also whether it is considered a good "national" horse vs being a potential "international" horse

At amateur levels, it is somewhat easier to price but IME a schoolmaster horse has to be easy and well trained to make decent money

What are they asking for him, if you don't mind me asking? (PM if you prefer!)
 
I couldnt bear to watch her riding any longer.
Sweet horse to try so hard for her but I agree he doesnt look correctly trained and didnt step evenly in his trot extensions imho.
If you have the money and enjoy riding him then why not, just make sure he's thoroughly vetted by someone very good!
 
I actually like the horse and he has an excellent attitude. BUT he has been produced appallingly, ridden even worse. I would say he is not working even close to PSG. He is so stiff everywhere because he has been hitched in his gob and not allowed to swing. That rider, even with a bad back rides atrociously.

If the price is right and he passes the vet I think he might be a little gem.
 
thanks for the comments - I haven't ridden to the same level as the rider so don't feel right to comment on her riding, but if the opinion is that she seems to be affected the way that the horse is going, then i will take that in to account.

What do you all think about his walk? Any problems there?
 
[QUOTE

What are they asking for him, if you don't mind me asking? (PM if you prefer!)[/QUOTE]

At the moment the price hasn't been decided - she is finding out what the owner wants, and also finding out the transportation / vet costs so that I can see if it would be viable.

I reckon it will be around the £12 - £13k mark....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top