Dressage GAH!!! Report, confusions and musings!!

Firewell

Firewell

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Ahhhh I'm RUBBISH lol.

How long does it normally take to see an improvement from lessons with a new trainer?

It's just I had this one dressage lady a few years ago and I think she has spoilt me for ever more as she was just brilliant, she made it feel easy from day 1, my marks soared and everything fell into place.

Now she has moved and I just don't think anyone will ever be as good for me :(.

Ive had 3 lessons with a new lady, lovely lady who has trained her own horses to grand prix and she herself trains with olympic riders ect. However it is not gelling but I dont know if thats because I need more time and lessons with her or what.

Lets face it first of all I never have been very good at working myself to do dressage. I enjoy schooling and I do think I am effective in getting my horse to work correctly on a basic level but thats where it ends. I feel my old trainer turned me from schooling my horse to doing dressage with my horse. She even said *whispers* that I was talented :D.

At the moment I feel far from talented, I just feel like a stiff, crooked useless lump and I always think I look a joke at BD :(.

My OH said that I should get an expensive jacket and a dressage hat as that what the others wear but I think it is more than just what I am wearing. We're missing it somehow.

I took my horse out to dressage on Saturday. I went on my own and a friend met me there to read the tests for me. It was hot, and Jae and I had worked really hard the day before in our lesson not to mention going showjumping last week as well so we were a bit tired.

I tried to put into practice my lessons stuff. First test Prelim 19 felt ok but a few mistakes meant we came 5th with 62%. Last time I did a prelim before the lessons I got 66%...

Second test I though 'Right!!' 'Lets do this!!' and really worked on getting my horse forwards. 2nd test Novice 35 and we tried so hard!! Both Jae and I sweating and giving it our all. 56. something rubbish% I'm waiting for the test sheet back to see the comments but even by my standards that pretty shocking. We do usually manage to at least scrape 60% at BD.

GAH WHY IS IT SO FRUSTRATING!!!!

I am sure it is meant to be easier than this? I can't blame my Jbeans as while he isn't a purpose bred dressage horse he has good confo, paces, he never spooks or is silly and always tries to do everything I say. He is quite a leggy, long horse for little me to hold together but that is hardly an excuse. It's only Novice for goodness sake!

I am enjoying myself going out and about. I enjoyed seeing my friend and spending the day with my horse but I do feel I am letting us both down a bit competively speaking. I don't have designs to do anything amazing but I would at least like to be good at what I do want to do!

Regarding my showjumping post the other day, I have been practising in the school and it has been flowing really well. I have a lesson booked with a 4* eventer next week and I have been accepted into my next event. Yippeeee :)

Pictures from the dressage, can you see how hard we were trying!!

Permission to post from nicolaelliottphotgraphy.co.uk

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Any thoughts? I just feel like I am really trying and not improving.
 
I think you must send J my way as he is just lovely!

You two make such a great partnership so maybe trying a diffrent instructor to see if you get on better with some one else?

Good luck with the next event :D
 
It's very difficult to comment without seeing in the flesh / with video.
With regards to trainers again it's quite personal, I find I know instantly if I think a training style is going to work for me but I also accept you are in it for the long haul with dressage so would only expect to see a slow gradual improvement personally. I don't think 3 lessons is enough to make a call on that.

Constructive critiscism ... from the photos one thing that does strike me is your position. There are a few improvements that could be made. Worth considering some lunge lessons / schoolmaster lessons short term (coming from someone who also needs them!)
 
I would agree with IHW re the position thing - I had a lesson recently with a trainer I love and who never fails to improve me but whom I only see occasionally due to where he lives. He watched me warm up, called me in, held his hand up and said 'if I do *this* (blocking me out of the picture), it all looks great and that's a 70% horse, trouble is, you do rather ruin the picture.' He said it all in a very nice way, and I took it in the spirit that it was intended, not least because he then tweaked everything (including moving my knee blocks) to create a better picture. I went out and got a 25 a week later, so it clearly had the desired effect!

So I think you could instantly lift your scores if you can find someone to help you with that.
 
I know how you feel, my SJ trainer moved away several years ago and I haven't been the same since sadly. Looking at the pics though, I think you should stop trying quite so hard...

My trainer (the one who moved) used to say the hardest thing is to do nothing. :rolleyes:
He didn't mean sit like a sack o spuds, but to put the horse into a position where he can do the work, you don't have to carry him. Relax and sit tall. Not saying I can and do do this at all, just what I'm sort of trying to do :o

Re the trainer, I agree with the others, trainers are very personal, and you have to click, the best is one that makes you go "Ohhh of course....!" don't feel bad at shopping about, the good ones will know this.
 
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I think give your new trainer a bit longer. I'd been training alone for ages and was so happy with my mare, thought she was going great etc. Started with a trainer and she picked us both to pieces, completely changing my mares way of going and I was quite depressed that it all seemed very difficult and awkward. Any way, after 9 months ish of fortnightly lessons my horse has made incredible progress and my position is improving. So give it longer and accept that you might go backwards before you leap forwards. Good luck.
 
I'd say that 3 sessions isn't quite enough to be able to say whether it works with the new instructor or not - can you maybe have the discussion with them about the drop in marks and where they think you are going wrong? Or maybe see if theres anyone else about you could have a session with in comparison? Maybe a local clinic or similar?

Change is difficult...! I think it always feels worse before it gets better :)

The pics look very similar to how he was going in the jumping videos you posted - I'd say the drop in dressage marks and the problems jumping are coming from the same issue.
 
springtime13 said:
So give it longer and accept that you might go backwards before you leap forwards. Good luck.
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I agree with this statement 100%

The lady I have lessons with (only very occasionally as she is expensive :( ) has had us doing things in the past and Ive been sat there thinking 'well this feels bloody awful' but the effect it had on other movements/way of going was fantastic!
 
I don't often ever comment on these threads. But... lovely horse, looks so super and in great condition.

I agree with the others, your position could really help improve your marks, which of course do make up a certain percentage of your score, and lets face it, how good is it that its something YOU can change easily! :)

What stands out for me is your hands, they look quite 'set' and low. If there is a way for you to ride more with your thumbs on top (I am bad for this too!) and try not to curl your hands over as in the last picture, and also lift them up a little. This would improve the whole overall picture no end, also keep your lower leg on the girth as much as possible.

I hope that isn't too much all in one go, best of luck, I can see you are trying hard, we are all our own worst critics!
 
I think from those pictures you are over riding him, I hunch my back when I over ride and get heavy/fixed in my hands. It looks like your riding the with handbrake on (but that is only pictures) try to lean back (not literally) but that's what it will feel like, and hold your hands a fraction higher and slightly closer together. See if this helps. I do exactly the same!
 
Agree with the others... and I am by no means a dressage expert by any means whatsoever... but the pictures are not showing a good postition. BUT these are only three snapshots in 3/4/5 minutes of test, but does give you something to work on.

Is the saddle gp/jump saddle? Maybe try a DR saddle to help the position. Do you have white jods and shirt on, or is it just the pic that looks like it?
 
I am in exactly the same boat at the moment. Dancer is a tb as well and has been getting around the 65% mark usually and even higher but I took July off from competing and she has come along in leaps and bounds! Was very disappointed in one of the last BDs I did to get 65% for first test and then 61% for second test. Then I also did a BD with my spotty boy who usually gets 64% + in prelims and we got a measly 59% last time out :( feel so down about it :( but have another comp on Monday to see if we can do better.

What comments did you get? Do you agree with what the judge said? I do think that sometimes, when you are on the brink of making big progress, the marks sometimes go down as you become more established if that makes sense.
I don't think he looks that bad from the pics, a bit downhill in the trot maybe but it's hard to tell at that point in time in the pic. He has a super hindleg
 
Stupid phone lol.
As I was saying... He has a super hind leg in the canter and seems really uphill! Don't give up, keep at it and I'm sure you will see progress in your marks soon :) we all have down days when we don't get as good as we think we deserve. It's useful to know we are all in the same boat at one point or another.
And i think it's the saddle which is putting you in odd position that other people are saying as my position used to look similar when I rode in a gp.
 
I agree with other posters that you could make some small tweaks to your position that would help. And your saddle looks massive for you but that coukd be the pics. You've had some time out though recently so you may need a few more weeks to become saddle fit.

In terms of the trainer.. I'm of the opinion that you should be seeing some improvement within a few sessions but most importantly you need to click with them. If you don't it's time to find someone else IMO.
 
tbh it looks as if you are trying too hard! some horses, the more you do, the less they might do... not being stroppy, but because you maybe tense up trying hard, they do less. I think it was Chris Bartle who described a horse trying to do dressage with a tense-legged rider as being like expecting a ballet dancer to perform well in tight jeans!
a few lessons isn't many, BUT a trainer you 'gel' with should make you feel positive and great from the start, as long as the horse is cooperating. And if s/he's not, at least give you tools/hope so that you can improve things.
Do you feel that you have a system to fall back on? Do you have, say, a 'blueprint' trot that you know is absolutely right for warming up? Have you worked out a good warm-up routine, exactly the exercises and length that you and your horse need? Can you work with the horse's neck in various positions, stretched forward downwards, novice outline, slightly more advanced outline for tests?
Also, don't just go by the scores on the doors. If YOU were happy with the way the tests went, that's great. I've done terrible-feeling tests that got great marks (judge obviously liked an argumentative horrible strong horse) and lovely feeling tests that weren't necessarily appreciated! Of course it's great if the one that feels good gets the great marks but that isn't always the way...
Did you get them videod? Can you watch them next time with your trainer, so she can see if you do things differently in the comp environment? Or have them videod next time maybe, this is invaluable.
I second the comment about the GP saddle. BUT if you do decide to go for a dressage saddle, try to make sure your trainer or someone v experienced is there to help you pick whichever one is best for you both.
Good luck, he looks a super willing boy, try to remember it is supposed to be fun too! ;) ;)
 
Can't see the pics on work comp so can't really comment.

However, I think a session of lunge lessons on a good school master where you can just work on improving your core and your position will help. Also, whatever saddle you're riding in, please think about getting a dressage also. I know two saddles are expensive but I have just had to fork out for a dressge saddle for me as although my boy came with a lovely, lovely new saddle, it was a WH saddle and totally useless for dressage. It put my lower leg in the most awful position and I just didn't feel right in it.

I think you and J are fantastic so don't be despondent. Have a few more lessons with this trainer and see how you feel. Does his way of going improve in lessons with this lady? If so, perhaps you need to ask her to spell it out EXACTLY what you need to be doing when you're practicing at home to get the same results.

Chin up, we've all been there and there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I will be again (probably very soon lol)
 
i think a few months ago you posted something similar and a few people (myself incl) said to get a proper dressage saddle? that still stands, the GP is a hinderance not a help.

that aside, he looks very behind the leg and i think your position is due to that-you are having to shove and hustle him along to keep him going (i also remember watching some vids a few months ago and thinking how behind you he was).

is that a fair assesment? if so, you need to be more balck/white about the forwardness and then you will be able to sit still and concentrate on you. You also need a saddle to support you and help you stay with him when he does GO.
 
Thanks,

Yeah it's weird he can go a bit lazy bones with me but when my mum rides him she finds him almost too sharp off the leg!

I spoke to my trainer and she said it often gets worse before it gets better.

Oh I don't know. I probably should just give up really, some people just aren't meant to ride are they :(. Either that or become a happy hacker.

He is a lovely lovely horse, he never complains you know, just tries to figure out what it is I want.. If it wasn't for him I probably wouldn't be riding anymore but he is a keep forever type.

Position isn't helped by the fact I am trying too hard. It's all me with that horse though that's all I can say, if I am trying to hard it's because i'm not doing something else right :(. I don't really want a dressage saddle, I like my saddle, it's comfy and besides a bad workman blames his tools.

Thank you for the thoughts. I've had lunge lessons, they didn't make a jot of difference as can canter round untill the cows come home with no reins and stirupps when I dont have to actually do anything other than stay on. I have an independant seat, i'm not easily shifted, it's just everything else. Maybe I would make a good jockey!
 
Thanks again though, I know we all struggle. I just seem to be struggling more than others right now.

To the person who said he is in great condition, that makes me happy :).
 
I think I do a very similar thing in tests - over ride, try a bit too hard and tip forward in my efforts to get the best I can - which actually has the reverse effect! Could your trainer come to a show and help you? Or watch a video maybe?
 
The saddle looks like it is doing you no favours.

I thought I was fine in my GP saddle, but I had a nasty knack of my lower leg swinging back. Got a jump saddle, hey presto, problem solved.
 
Ps do you find he works lovely and loose and soft in warm up, then blocks you slightly just behind his poll when you go into a test? We've identified this as a problem with my and my J, had 3 lessons on him now with my normal trainer who usually teaches me on Roo, and now have a strategy for dealing with that!
 
Firewell said:
Thanks,

Yeah it's weird he can go a bit lazy bones with me but when my mum rides him she finds him almost too sharp off the leg!

I spoke to my trainer and she said it often gets worse before it gets better.

Oh I don't know. I probably should just give up really, some people just aren't meant to ride are they :(. Either that or become a happy hacker.

He is a lovely lovely horse, he never complains you know, just tries to figure out what it is I want.. If it wasn't for him I probably wouldn't be riding anymore but he is a keep forever type.

Position isn't helped by the fact I am trying too hard. It's all me with that horse though that's all I can say, if I am trying to hard it's because i'm not doing something else right :(. I don't really want a dressage saddle, I like my saddle, it's comfy and besides a bad workman blames his tools.

Thank you for the thoughts. I've had lunge lessons, they didn't make a jot of difference as can canter round untill the cows come home with no reins and stirupps when I dont have to actually do anything other than stay on. I have an independant seat, i'm not easily shifted, it's just everything else. Maybe I would make a good jockey!
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I really do think your being FAR too hard on yourself.

What is it that you want to achieve in your schooling sessions?! Mine are always 1. Is he forward (no :D) cue me doing transitions for first 20 mins to get him off my leg and more forward, this can get very boring but have learnt with him it's something I have to do. 2. Is he straight, can I feel any body popping (yes :D) work on that 3. Is he working from behind (start of the session hardly ever, by end yes, mostly. :D) again, achieved through transitions, transitions in the pace. I am also working him LDR at the moment to try and get him to loosen up more over his back and it is making a big difference and he is now in self-carriage 80% more than he was a month ago.

I think you need to determine before you school what you want to acheive. What are J's weakest points? IS he forward? Does he work from behind? IS he straight? I don't know you or your horse so it's hard to know what to say but I guess just pinpoint one thing perhaps that you want to improve on per session and just concentrate on doing that and perhaps pick a new one each session for a while? That might help in respect to you trying too hard as theoretically you should only have one thing to focus on.
 
the saddle may be comfy but its the wrong shape for you regardless of anything else, and the anything else is that its no good for what you are trying to do in it!

theres no way i could ride an adv med on CS in that saddle, so not sure why you are so opposed to getting something that will instantly make life easier for you and Jae?

if he's lazy you need to to get him in front of the leg before you can improve anything else.
 
Firewell said:
Thank you for the thoughts. I've had lunge lessons, they didn't make a jot of difference as can canter round untill the cows come home with no reins and stirupps when I dont have to actually do anything other than stay on. I have an independant seat, i'm not easily shifted, it's just everything else. Maybe I would make a good jockey!
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I don't think you've been having very good lunge lessons ;)

Lunge lessons really aren't about doing stuff with no reins and stirrups and not falling off, they're about riding a schoolmaster horse to get the feel for what you're aiming for - you still have to ride and influence the horse, it's just the trainer should be concentrating on you and your riding and not the horse.

You're not a bad rider, there's just some things that could be improved (haven't we all got that?) which would make the whole picture better - if that's what you want. If you're happy having fun on your horse and going out competing occasionally, then carry on doing that - there's no-one in the world who should make you feel like you shouldn't.
 
He does look in great condition, he's a lovely boy. Okay, deep breath... with all respect (and I know that usually means "i'm about to say something really really insulting and hope you won't mind"...! but really not in this case, honestly!), but, do you know what you are aiming for in your flatwork? Have you sat on a good horse who swings really correctly through, works over his back actively from the hind end, taking more weight behind, not just about the front end looking pretty etc? I think you do... he's stepping through really nicely in those pics, it doesn't look as if you have the Dreaded Front End Fixation, etc. So, it looks as if you do know what you are feeling for, and you're going along the right lines. And maybe you just had judges that day that didn't like what they were seeing, for some reason (vid so much better than photos, obviously, in that respect). Was he laterally loose, had you done enough of that kind of warm-up?
If you are anywhere near, the mechanical horse at Ashen is very good, you can have a hands-on session as you are 'riding', which is really useful.
Have you had a McTimoney or similar treatment recently, to see if you are wonky/compensating etc?
Also, the 'bad workman blames tools' thing... hmmm, I see what you mean, BUT a good dressage saddle does make it easier, and if the best in the world use them, why shouldn't you? Obv keep your comfy GP for hacking etc but maybe at least just try a dr saddle to see if it helps.
 
Thanks, umm will try and answer everybody as too good at using quote marks.

The lunge lessons I've had have involved knotting the reins? I turn my toes out, know that much when i'm on the lunge!

I do have the money for a dressage saddle, not sure why I am opposed to one? Isn't that odd. I did think it was because of cleaning another saddle but I could get a synthetic. It might be because finding the right saddle is always such a faff and finally with the one I have now it fits and jae is totally comfy in it as well. Either that or when I have a dressage saddle I have no excuse for looking a phleb.

SS the thing I find the hardest with J is having him truely straight and bending through the body not just the neck. He is a little stiff BUT my dressage trainer says he is stiff because of me, I think that is what she said?. He does move forwards nicely once he is warmed up.

E - Yes he is softer in the warm up and I am sure I tense up coming down the center line!

W - your probably right.

I don't want to soar up the levels or go mad competing every weekend but I do like to go out a couple of times a month and I would like to compete at an adult level and sometimes do better then the 5th place and 6th place rosettes I always get. I just feel very average! I'm not appalling I know i'm not *that* bad. I'm not 'oh my god look at how awful that rider is poor horse!' but I am 'who?'. If you know what I mean lol. For once I want to knock the socks off, not just scrape through.

I'll just keep plugging away. At least I have a nice horse that's half the equation sorted I suppose. Wish I could do him a bit more justice but I dont suppose he cares as long as he gets his grub and lots of kisses :D.
 
Firewell said:
Thanks,

Yeah it's weird he can go a bit lazy bones with me but when my mum rides him she finds him almost too sharp off the leg!

I spoke to my trainer and she said it often gets worse before it gets better.

Oh I don't know. I probably should just give up really, some people just aren't meant to ride are they :(. Either that or become a happy hacker.

He is a lovely lovely horse, he never complains you know, just tries to figure out what it is I want.. If it wasn't for him I probably wouldn't be riding anymore but he is a keep forever type.

Position isn't helped by the fact I am trying too hard. It's all me with that horse though that's all I can say, if I am trying to hard it's because i'm not doing something else right :(. I don't really want a dressage saddle, I like my saddle, it's comfy and besides a bad workman blames his tools.

Thank you for the thoughts. I've had lunge lessons, they didn't make a jot of difference as can canter round untill the cows come home with no reins and stirupps when I dont have to actually do anything other than stay on. I have an independant seat, i'm not easily shifted, it's just everything else. Maybe I would make a good jockey!
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Can I just say - I LOVE your attitude! So many people would just say "Excuse my position, I don't have the right saddle, I was feeling crap, horse was being lazy" etc. IMO someone who can admit their faults makes a much better rider than one that can't! Don't give up :)
 
kerilli said:
He does look in great condition, he's a lovely boy. Okay, deep breath... with all respect (and I know that usually means "i'm about to say something really really insulting and hope you won't mind"...! but really not in this case, honestly!), but, do you know what you are aiming for in your flatwork? Have you sat on a good horse who swings really correctly through, works over his back actively from the hind end, taking more weight behind, not just about the front end looking pretty etc? I think you do... he's stepping through really nicely in those pics, it doesn't look as if you have the Dreaded Front End Fixation, etc. So, it looks as if you do know what you are feeling for, and you're going along the right lines. And maybe you just had judges that day that didn't like what they were seeing, for some reason (vid so much better than photos, obviously, in that respect). Was he laterally loose, had you done enough of that kind of warm-up?
If you are anywhere near, the mechanical horse at Ashen is very good, you can have a hands-on session as you are 'riding', which is really useful.
Have you had a McTimoney or similar treatment recently, to see if you are wonky/compensating etc?
Also, the 'bad workman blames tools' thing... hmmm, I see what you mean, BUT a good dressage saddle does make it easier, and if the best in the world use them, why shouldn't you? Obv keep your comfy GP for hacking etc but maybe at least just try a dr saddle to see if it helps.
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Do you know what K, I do need to see a chiro and I guess that would be good to get sorted. No point spending £££ on J's back if I'm like a crooked 70yr old.

That's the thing, I do know what to feel in terms of him working correctly, and I work him like that most of the time. I think you can see in the way he is muscled? It's only me that rides him. It's more all the other bits and pieces, transitions and bend and the tecnicalities. I know what a smooth like flowing water transition should feel like and having the horse in my outside hand round a circle ect, and I know its meant to feel harmonious. It's just my body will not listen to what my brain says! I find I tense up in my seat and then my hands and legs sort of won't cooperate. I think I grip like a maniac with my thighs? I notice because the top of my thighs are *ahem* a little more pronounced then I would like ;).
 
without wishing to sound exasperated.....no one can help you if you wont help yourself!

if you have the money for a better saddle, put a little time by to find the right one. It really isnt that hard unless you have some extraordinarily obscurely shaped creature (which i dont think Jae is).
im a bit amazed that you would rather go without a saddle that will help, for the sake of spending time looking for it or cleaning it TBH.
 
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