Dressage horse dilemma

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eva

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Hello fellow horsey people,

I'm having sleepless nights thinking of whether I should sell my current 8 yo Spanish horse and buy a warmblood. I've had him for 3 years and we've gone from Intro to working AdMed now, and have quailified for Area Festivals and Regionals at every level and I'm sure he can progress further with no problem, we've got piaffe, passage and pirouette basics in place. He's a wonderfully rideable horse, never objects to anything in the world, he just patiently waits for you to do the right thing and then he does the right thing too. Practically he is a true schoolmaster type. BUT - despite all this the marks he gets are never over 70%, now at Medium he's getting low 60's and I feel that despite our best combined effort he will never be a winner really and that lead me to the thought of selling him and getting a young warmblood who I can again bring on. I am torn between these thoughts:
1) that this warmblood scenario will turn out horrible in some way, but then so many people have them, surely they can't be that bad?
2) that if I don't do it, I will forever be disappointed when out competing... Because I know he will never really score that well, he just doesn't have that huge scopey movement warmbloods have..
3) will I miss him too much? We've had so much fun together, and I've taught him everything, and he's been so good to me.

I can't really afford to buy and keep two, nor do I have the time for two.
Aw gawd. Any helpful ideas for my inflamed brain?
 
If he hacks as well, I suggest you sell him to me!

Seriously though, why not spend some time at a yard with a selection of warmbloods ie Contessa/Oldencraig/Talland and see how you feel in the saddle. I think both the temperament and ride of PRE's is different to warmbloods.

My own warmblood is semi retired and I am now trying to decide whether to have a warmblood or PRE as my next ride. Size may decide this as I will want a horse under 16.2.
 
Having had both - I'd say go and get a good warmblood. Some PRE's are fantastic and excel in dressage and others have a limit.

Same could be said for warmbloods, but I think you're more likely to come across or choose a warmblood that can rather than can't do dressage to a high enough level.
 
it really does depend on what your goals are-training a horse to GP or winning national titles, which is the end goal and which is more important.

in a way threads like this kind of make me smile (not in a nasty wasy i hasten to add), my ex racer has qual for the regionals at every level novice-adv med and scores 65/66 at adv med with mistakes so im sure your spanish chap is just as capable, my sisters ex racer has hit 80% at novice and got 66,68 and 69 in his first 3 elems this year!

neither have huge movement, mine has a pretty trot and hers a lovely engaged canter but not huge by any stretch of anyones imagination.

how many of us as amateur riders are truly talented and dedicated enough to take a national title sort of horse to that level and do it justice? i dont think even with a £50k horse i would be troubling the pros, and indeed know a few people with that sort of horse and they get the exact same marks they get on their more *normal* horses because they simply cant ride the horse they way a pro can and tap in to that talent 100% in a test situation.

what are judges saying on your sheets? are you really squeezing every single mark out of him? is he really truly as supple and loose as he possible can be, as straight as he can be, as in front of the leg as he can be? are you setting up every movement and riding every step of ever test?

he sounds like a super boy and you may well find he scores better at PSG and above as he will get good marks for the piris, zig zags, pi/pa etc where a huge moving horse may lose balance or engagement.
 
Is there any chance you could invest in a WB and keep the PRE with a loaner/sharer? Sounds like you still enjoy him, but at the same time he could be a great schoolmaster for someone while you bring on a younger horse.

As PS said though, it depends what you want. If you feel that you can't achieve any more with this one and it's affecting your enjoyment then it's probably time to move on.
 
What are your aspirations?
To be highly competitive at the lower-middle levels or to experience the higher levels?

I completely 'get' where you are coming from here, but you may well find that your horse really starts to shine the higher up the levels you go. My gut feeling is you should enjoy the ride up the levels while you can!
 
I presume you have good coaching currently but have you considered a lesson/clinic with someone at the top end of the game, preferably with experience working with Spanish horses. Ask them what you've asked on here.
 
I am kind of at a similar dilemma with mine. He is a 6 year old welsh x appy and he def isn't your typical dressage horse. We are only competing at novice and training elem and dabbling with medium movements. We always get the same comments from judges saying he lacks suppleness and not stepping through and I was at a dead end.

Deciding he was worth a further try and I got another Instructer to get a different point of view. She said to just push him forward to a medium trot and canter the whole time and to not hold him so much and WOW the difference was amazing! He now is so much more supple just cos he is stepping through around corners. His transitions and counter canter are now a-maze-ing. And that is just 2 weeks after the lesson.

The only problem is, this new Instructer is anti- nonwarmblood for dressage and says she doesn't think row will be able to do elem + and that I am too talented for him. I rode her warm blood school master who is trained to psg level and it felt soooo good sitting on a horse that is so responsive and to be able to do half pass and flying changes so easily.

However, due to rowan's inprovement and the fact he is actually starting to enjoy schooling and dressage now with this new approach, I feel he is worth a try to see how far I can get him and then at least if we get stuck at medium level, I can sell him and be able to afford a well bred warmblood with the money.

I think it is worth trying a new Instructer or talking to a judge or having one of those practise test sessions with BD cos you might be missing something :)

I would just like to say I still think my previous Instructer is fab and I still have lessons with her with my other horses :)
 
If I were you I'd look into a few other options before you sell up for a warmblood - I work at a professional dressage yard at weekends full of warmbloods and there are a few at my yard as well, and I can tell you now 9 out of 10 are a royal pain in the arse! Some are lovely in the stable/on the ground, but then as soon as you get on them they turn into little devils. Others are horrible on the ground but can be relatively nice to ride. However what seems to be a common theme is that they will spook at more or less everything, and they (well the ones I deal with anyway) are not your typical loving horses that you can really form a bond with.

I've never had a PRE, but from what I've heard they are very loyal, loving horses and are a lot more 'sane' than warmbloods. So it all boils down to what you want from your horse - do you want to get to the top levels of dressage, and your only focus is success at your competitions? Or do you want a horse to form a bond with, to have as your 'forever' horse, a horse that you can hack out on if you want or pop a few jumps if you felt like it?

If your focus is ultimately the competitions and results matter, then perhaps selling up is the best thing to do. However if there is more than just competitions to consider, then I'd keep him. I dont mean this to sound harsh, and I do understand where you are coming from - focusing on competitions is no bad thing and I dont mean it to sound like I would be judging you if you just wanted to focus on your competitions.

What I'd look into first are a few options: firstly look at a trainer who specialises in Spanish horses. I dont know where you are based but at my yard in Warwickshire we have a trainer who comes over from Spain, he has trained with the Spanish high school as well as with dressage riders and trainers all around the world (Germany, Vienna etc). He has his own PRE stallion and is obviously very experienced with them, so that sort of person is what you are looking for.

If you have exhasusted that option and there are no improvements, then I'd look at trying to move up a level or two as Princess Sparkle said, if all the high level movements like piaffe, passage etc (which come quite naturally to PRE's) are there then perhaps he might actually do better a bit higher up the levels. My boy is nowhere near as advanced but he was pretty poor at Prelims however get much better scores at Novice because there is more for him to think about.

After you've gone down that route I'd then maybe look at getting a sharer for him or having him out on loan. He sounds wonderful and I can see why you'd struggle to let him go, so perhaps loaning him or if you can afford it, getting a sharer will be better than losing him forever. And try out some warmbloods like mtj said at places like Talland, see how you find them and then you can decide if they are for you.

I dont envy you with this one, it is a really tough choice so my heart goes out to you.
 
Huge thanks to everyone who answered, I honestly didn't expect so much good, sound advice! I have just ridden him today and he's so lovely... He always makes me feel so good and so confident! So I am thinking for now, as he's only 8, it should be reasonably safe to keep him for another year or so and see how far can we get in that space of time, he should only become better and more of a schoolmaster really. In an ideal world I'd buy a green warmblood to bring on alongside him, but again there is no time or money for that. I'm pretty sure that I'll get to wear the tails on him but if I get a green WB that will be a gamble, won't it.
 
The jump to medium is physically bigger than a lot of people think. He probably just needs to be a bit stronger from his POV.
Everything also comes up a lot quicker in mediums so worth going to a test riding day to get some immediate feedback on what you are doing. Little tweaks to your presentation can hike the marks up considerably.

I've taken two non-typical horses right up the grades. My older one is 7/8TB she competed to Inter I and has more points at higher levels than she ever got at novice. She has scored up to mid 60's at advanced level and trained all the GP work.

Next one is Russian Orlov x connemara/Tb and has often been taken for a PRE or lusitano. She topped out at PSG as she struggled to get the tempi changes past the two's which was a pity as she P&P'd for fun. They can learn to lengthen, once she 'got it' her extensions are huge and good for 8's.

I also competed a Fell Pony to medium level and got some solid scores. He would have gone further as he could do all the advanced stuff easily except the changes and age caught up with him before we could get them solid.

Current ride is IDSH competing elementary and starting medium and is scoring well.

I do have two 'warmbloods' that I bred out of the 7/8 TB mare. One is already under saddle and exceptionally talented and trainable. It is so much easier to get certain things like the uphill work as she is built that way. Despite that I would not swap the experience I have gained with the others because all those skills acquired working with the less ideal conformation have taught me so much more about producing a horse than I would ever have learned on something like B.

Worth also a thought that the vast majority of the horses that thrashed my little TB mare at lower levels vanished off the scene as she moved up the grades and they did not.
 
That is very inspiring. Went on a hack yesterday and really felt I enjoyed him - both in the full-speed gallop and in the piaffe-passage in the forest:) thanks guys, I now feel I appreciate my ride a lot better! Looking forward to the higher levels:)
 
It sounds to me like you've got a fantastic horse, doing everything you ask, with more to come. Count your blessings! :D

If you need any more influence look back on here at all the threads by people who go out and buy super fancy, purpose bred young horses and have no end of trouble. . .;) Get this horse, whom you like having and enjoy riding, to GP and then you will be in a much better position to produce the next one. To me, he sounds like the sort of horse you will miss every day when he's gone.
 
TarrSteps said:
It sounds to me like you've got a fantastic horse, doing everything you ask, with more to come. Count your blessings! :D

If you need any more influence look back on here at all the threads by people who go out and buy super fancy, purpose bred young horses and have no end of trouble. . .;) Get this horse, whom you like having and enjoy riding, to GP and then you will be in a much better position to produce the next one. To me, he sounds like the sort of horse you will miss every day when he's gone.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with this more! He's only 8 give the lad a chance :)
 
Wise words from TS, you cant put a price on soundness and work ethic.................i have been unfortunate enough to see a very close friend have to retire a super mover of a WB due to leg isssues and i cant even begin to describe the heartache. Of course not all WB will break down, and thats not the only prob people have with them, but your lad sounds tough and consistant and a nice person..................sometimes, better the devil you know-mine IS an actual devil, but i know him inside out and he's absolutely tough as nails (touch wood!) never sick or sorry etc, so althugh he isnt super fancy, he's got a lot of the other neccesary ingredients.

ive seen so many people have leg probs with fancy horses,constantly missing half the season, or lessons etc i often think even if i did ever have a mega budget, i dont think i could bring myself to spend it all on one horse!
 
This is such an interesting debate. Before I got my WB I had a schoolmaster lesson on a PRE - I had always loved the idea of them but had never properly ridden one. I found the ride so completely different to the horses I was used to, and while I still think they are stunning, I decided then and there that I wanted a WB. Having said that, I imagine that a WB would pick up more marks at the lower levels, but a correct PRE would come into its own in the higher levels where more collection is required. For me, it wasn't a question of what would be the most successful in a dressage arena - there is such a huge difference in their way of going and I immediately knew which I preferred. And for what it's worth, I am finding my young WB to be extremely trainable and sensible, not especially spooky and a lovely person to boot (although I'll admit he does have crap feet).
 
TarrSteps and co, you are absolutely right. I guess even if he doesn't score too well at the higher levels he'll give me that experience that will be invaluable all the same. I spoke to two ladies at my yard who are super knowledgeable, and they said that a better temperament and trainability could not be found in a horse, so even if his engine is not too huge he's still a treasure of a horse. Besides, it surfaced that on that day when I got 60%, the winner got 62%:) so I have overreacted "a little", but I do not regret it - I had a think about what matters and I appreciate my boy so much more now! Thanks again guys for all the advice!
 
I had an ordinary un-flash ISH, wonky legs, but very trainable and tried his heart out. We never competed but he was well schooled, could half-pass, do the odd flying change, was a fab hack, safe as houses with the heaviest traffic. Decided I wanted a posh WB to compete, got a well bred, black stunning colt, huge movement, flash paces. bought un-backed - and he's now 8 and only done about 2 months ridden work due to lameness issues. All that glitters certainly isn't gold!!
 
Sound and sane is priceless.

I have a 20-year old Shire-TBX who still works somewhere between elementary and medium levels. She also hacks out and is unfazed by traffic, screaming kids on bikes, dogs, etc., and is what Yanks call a "packer" over any fence up to about 2'9 (you can point her at it, hang off the side like an eejit, and she'll still jump). Years ago, I had a wee crisis when I realized she didn't have FEI potential. The trainer I was working for was trying to sell me one that did, a lovely Hanoverian gelding. Trainer wanted $45,000 for the gelding, so there was that. I don't think the lost change behind the sofa cushion would have come close enough to that figure.

A friend who I used to show with as a kid did move up in the world to the posh warmbloods and was doing well in the Young Rider competitions on a beautiful PSG horse. That horse had to be retired to a career as a therapy horse at age 13 due to pulling a hind suspensory. I have never gotten vaguely near that level, nor a horse that nice, but my horse is still going strong. I know which horse I'd rather have!
 
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