Dressage - is it right...?

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RachelB

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Just wanted to see what you guys thought about this...
I went to a small local unaffiliated dressage competition today, and entered both the prelim tests. I got 67% in the first one, and came joint second. The second test, which I thought felt much better (calmer and more in control), but I only got 51% in this one. Apparently the marking for the second prelim (different judge) was all over the place, from one guy who won with 70% (he looked like he should be doing elementary at least), to one poor person who got a horrifiying 38%!
So I just wanted to see what you lot thought, is it ever acceptable to give such a low mark at unaffiliated prelim level? My instructor (who also judges) told me she would rarely give anyone under 55% at that sort of level, to ensure she didn't put anyone off. I know from experience though that she is a fair marker. I think if I had got the 38% i would have given up dressage altogether there and then!
So what do you think - how would you react to be on the receiving end of 38%, and do you think it is right to put someone down that much?
 
I feel that the range of marksare there to be used and should be. The test that only got 38% may have had some things go very wrong which warrented perhaps a 1, a couple of those would bring the marks way down
 
I have also heard judges say they try not to mark down to much as they want to encouage dressage and not put people off. But myself I would prefer the true mark so I could go home and work myself and my horse to get better were as if I was getting over the 50% marks and I did not derserve it I might think were doing well time to affilate and go get a proper score and feel like a complete fool. I was doing a novice a few years ago and the showground my horse never went well only local. My horse was tense, hollow and rushing, the class was a qualifier I retired half wat through my test was that bad, when I got my sheet back they were all 8 up till i left the ring My horse and me did not deserve the marks I was given and could not justify them. Thats my opinion on it and I do agree to encourage but I prefer the accurate marks.
 
I was out today too and in my classes the scores ranged from 42% to over 70 %.
I suppose the problem is that if there really is such a range in the standards then it has to be shown.
But i do think it would be very harsh to receive such a low mark as 38%, although i did get 1 for 1 movement today and did deserve it
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I'm affraid that's what you get with unaffiliated dressage - the quality of the judges varies wildly, which can be very disheartening. Think some of these judges don't really know what they are looking for, its a bit pot luck.

My friend gets 6's for every single mark, when she is judged by one particular judge
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, now there must be some bits that are better than others surely (this has happened on more than one occasion, with this one judge).
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Think you just have to ignore certain judges comments/marks or try and find another venue where they don't judge. Shame you can't generally find out who is judging before you enter, so you don't waste your time or money going before a judge that you know marks badly.

It would have had to go very wrong to get 38%. I got more than that many years ago when riding an old style test where you had to halt @ X at the start of the test and the cob I was on decided to halt, then rear and wave at the judge, & to be honest the rest of the test wasn't much better!!! LOL
 
i think overmarking is wrong. why give someone 55% if it wasn't worth it just so they dont feel bad. if it's bad, they need to know so they can work on it. my friend has been on the recieving end of such over-generous marking and now she has actually improved to make her tests worth that score, she is still getting mid-50's and doesn't understand why when she has improved so much. so i dont think being over-generous does anyone any favours. if it was worth a 2, then it needs to be given one. otherwise people end up thinking they're better than they really are.

same goes for the higher end of the scale - i hate seeing classes where marks range from 55 to 65% - hardly shows much imagination with the marking. usually there is someone in the class deserving of 7's, 8's and 9's and they should be given them. i think it shows a good judge who is willing to use the scale of marks if they range from 40% to 75%. there's nothing like a sheet of 6's to bore you to death - what can you learn from that? would rather have 3's for the rubbish bits and 8's for the good bits. i have had scores from 45% to 83% in the time we've done dressage. it's why i went affilated - they dont give marks out like smarties there - you've got to earn them. i know unaff prelim is the starting block for most people, but it should still give you a realistic idea of how you're doing. if i wanted someone to just fill a sheet with 6's i wouldn't pay to go and do a test. i think people deserve accurate marking.
 
I went to one like this, it was a championship show and obviouslly the judge felt they had to be harsh for some bizarre reason, everyone their had qualified with 60%, but one girl got 29%, and the winner only got 64%, my horse got 63% and the only comment the judge could make was "nice young horse, well ridden"
 
You all need to look at it this way. 50% is merely 'sufficient' a mark of 5 throughout. to be getting 1 &2's at that level from me the horse would need to be breakdancing down the centre line, performing back flips instead of transitions and be on three legs.
yes you want to get a mark that indicates your progress but the judge has a responsibility to look for the good things in the test not just penalise the bad.
quite frankly i always say that if i cant find 50% good marks at that sort of level, i ought to give up judging and take up knitting! I am currently list 4 by the way!
 
It's always difficult to comment on a particular score unless you saw the whole test from the same perspective as the judge but as a general rule I fully agree with Star.

I haven't often scored horses much below 48% but would never say never and score what happens on the day. We do occaisionally see horses in unaffiliated prelims that do no canter at all or all the canter on the wrong leg. If those horses also tend to have wrong bend, no suppleness, rhythm etc then a mark of 50% is not acceptable. You cannot give them 5s it's not fair on them or the other competitors who scored a genuine 50%.

Alot of prelim horses tests consist of 4s, 5s and 6s and it's not uncommon for a wrong canter strike off to occur 2 or 3 times and that can only warrant a 3 which could easily drop a score below 50%.

At the opposite end of the scale the 2 times I've ever given 10s were also in unaffiliated prelims (both for entries and with final scores around 80%) so I can easily see how such a difference from the top to the bottom scores can occur.
 
I also agree with Star... moreso with the statement that there is someone in the class deserving 7's etc etc....

The one that always makes me laugh is how a judge can write in the comments alongside the mark "Very Good Transition" and then give you a 5 or 6..... Very good is a 9!!! Can some of these judges not read??? Or do they not pay attention to the scale of marks written on EVERY dressage test sheet!!!!

I think its very hypocritical to write Very good and give a 5 or 6!!!
 
I agree, this is my bugbear. Also, when they give you a mark, then no comment?! If it doesnt need a comment, then surely there is nothing wrong with it!? I understand they cant comment on every movement, but an almost blank sheet of comments with just 5/6/7s to me is a complete waste of time.
 
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Very Good Transition" and then give you a 5 or 6..... Very good is a 9

[/ QUOTE ]

But was the transition the whole mark? Not normally at Prelim/Novice level. So maybe the judge was just pointing out a bit was good? Although it's odd that the rest of the movement was so bad to drop the whole mark down to a 5!
 
I'm sure I am repeating myself here (mentioned this before) but only about a month ago, I got a comment of Very striaght entry, good rhythm, nose tipped left and I got a 4??? Hang on, this is prelim!!! I've got the striaght entry, good tempo but horse stuck nose to left and I got a 4??? Insufficient!!! Would the judge like said horse to wobble down centre line totally unbalanced instead????

I hasten to add I always ask who is judging before hand..... and there are a few that I will not even bother riding a test in front of!!!
 
Yes I know where that was too...
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Though saying that, i had a test marked at the same place very fairly, wth marks ranging from an 8 to a 4, and justification at the lower end. That is a well marked test imo!

At a BE event, I got a 6 for my entry, and the comment "v.straight entry", now fair enough, but why was it only a 6!? If they had said "horse not forward" which would have been true, with straight entry, then that is justification. It just annoys me!
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I think 35% is harsh, but then again if it was that horrendous (ie. maybe the horse cantered the whole thing!) then I assume the rider would have expected a bad mark.

Ive had 45% once which I thoroughly deserved as the horse was new and it was his first time out and he was absolutely awful! We left the ring twice, he napped 3 times, bucked etc. So in that case I expect a horrendous mark.

Then again at another show, the first test with a 4yo which was ok - not very good but my aim being just to stay in the arena, we won it with 80%!! What?!

Its nice to try and not put people off but giving them a minimum of 55% isnt very fair either as to get that, they'd obviously have to bump up some marks somewhere.

What irritates me is the lack of consistency between judges. Its a joke, like you say - you can do a lovely test and get a lower mark than in another test which was horrible! I assume at affiliated level its better? Even BE I think is a bit dodgy - I did what I though was my best test not long ago but ended up getting lower than my norm. Weird. And agree with Scrooge - how often do we get a positive comment only to have a lowish mark beside it!!
 
I agree with some of what you say, but most classes may range about 15% in standard, you rarely get a range of 35%, even if you are willing to award higher and lower marks where deserved.

Sometimes there just isn't anyone deserving of a 8 or 9, and although 6's may bore you to death there are times when it IS a 6, like it or not you should learn from that 6. Yes it maybe dull to get a sheet of 6's but sometimes it is a 6 test, as judges we hate to give out lots of sixes and would much prefer to use a range of marks but we mark what is in front of us. You say you would prefer 3s and 8's but alot of the time we don't see anything bad enough for a 3 or good enough for an 8. You say you want accurate marking but sometimes that is 6's. Although I appreciate that some judges may not be brave enough to give higher marks when deserved, but just wanted to highlight that sometimes the 6 however loathed is deserved

I agree that something very bad must have happended to get 38% at prelim. I judged an unaffiliated prelim recently with a wide variation in standard I gave out a couple of 1s and also a few 8s, but I still doubt anyone got under 45%.
 
[ QUOTE ]
to be getting 1 &2's at that level from me the horse would need to be breakdancing down the centre line, performing back flips instead of transitions and be on three legs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe, I got something like 38% in my first unaff prelim on my 4 year old many years ago, but then she was break dancing down the centre line!! (the wind was making a nasty shavings bag stalk her in the field next to the arena!!!
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I personally like the judges who use the full range of marks and actually mark up and down according to the good and bad bits. Just seems a bit lazy when you get a sheet full of 5 and 6.

Mind you, I did get a 0 and an 8 once in the same test!!! Didn't think you could get a 0 unless your horse jumped on the judge or left the arena! In my case my mare broke from canter on the diagonal when coming into counter canter in a novice test, as it was one of her first novice tests and we had to trot pretty much straight away with only a few strides of counter canter and then to walk, I didn't want to upset her by trying to get the canter again, so balanced her and kept her in trot till the walk transition. Fair enough I didn't canter, but I did stay in the arena do the rest of the movement (ie the walk transition correctly), but got a 0!! Luckily I just thought it was hysterical and wasn't upset, but it did seem a tad on the mean side!
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I dont get impressed easily, but a list 4, WOW, i am not worthy lol. I got a 38% on my very first prelim 2 years ago. Entry not straight, halt not straight, naughty at C (bucked), incorrect bend, hollow, naughty at A, jogged, incorrect bend, hollow, circle too small, jogged, circle too big. I was soooo disappointed at the time, my world had come crashing down as I was gonna be a dressage diva and win first time out! BUT I wasnt last (last but one). We all have to start somewhere.
 
lol I got 30% with Axey in our 1st ever test (which was a walk and trot test btw!)

He was so freaked out that I don't think I did any of the movements at all, and he wouldn't even go down one side of the arena
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In the end I just trotted him round until he settled, fully expecting to be eliminated but the judge let me carry on but gave me 2's for the last 1/2 of the test.
I too wasn't last as somebody did get eliminated!

Axey did redeem himself the next time out tho, at the same place, we scored 60.9% in P 10 and qualified 2nd round Trailblazers
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Sam x
 
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